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Post by Power NeXus on Dec 8, 2011 11:54:43 GMT -5
-Random encounter, no prep. -Combatants have no knowledge or information on each other -Assume all obstacles and environments will take damage as they normally would -No combatants may leave the confines of the arena, (what is shown is the image) -Normal circumstances (morals on, no blood lust) -Win by KO, incapacitation, or death. BFR is not allowed. A) Hawkeye (Clint Barton) - bow & quiver, unlimited normal arrows, 2 explosive arrows, a net arrow, a sonic arrow, and 2 pairs of nunchuks B) Green Arrow (Oliver Queen) - bow & quiver, unlimited normal arrows, 1 glue arrow, 1 boxing glove arrow, and a katana
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Post by Admin on Dec 8, 2011 12:01:03 GMT -5
IMHO Clint has the better trick arrows here, but up close I can see Ollie taking him down.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Dec 8, 2011 19:44:13 GMT -5
Hawkeye runs away to a gun store, grabs a hunting rifle and wins.
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Post by Admin on Dec 9, 2011 11:45:49 GMT -5
Hawkeye runs away to a gun store, grabs a hunting rifle and wins. In that scenario, he gets an arrow in the back while fleeing
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ronniebolt
Sidekick Ledger
Chicks dig ronnie
Posts: 86
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Post by ronniebolt on Dec 9, 2011 17:37:39 GMT -5
Ollie is the better archer, although Clint's probably better with things that are non bow related. Hand to hand is probably even now after Natas' training Ollie. He was able to beat Jason Todd.
I'd say Ollie 6/10
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Vance Astro
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Vance Astro on Dec 11, 2011 6:33:49 GMT -5
Ollie is the better archer Based on what?
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ronniebolt
Sidekick Ledger
Chicks dig ronnie
Posts: 86
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Post by ronniebolt on Dec 14, 2011 15:08:33 GMT -5
Ollie is the better archer Based on what? There feats
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Dec 14, 2011 17:45:46 GMT -5
They both take arrows to the knees and are incapacitated.
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Post by Power NeXus on Dec 15, 2011 13:14:59 GMT -5
They both take arrows to the knees and are incapacitated. Then they spent the rest of their days guarding Avengers tower and stealing sweet rolls.
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Post by Seclusion on Nov 30, 2012 19:16:04 GMT -5
Hawkeye is a better archer.
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Post by Erik-El on Nov 30, 2012 22:57:36 GMT -5
Hawkeye is a better archer. Based on what?
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Dec 4, 2012 19:05:59 GMT -5
Really the idea that either one is a better archer than the other is not supported by feats. Both have fairly equal top end feats. The only argument I can think of (and it's a VERY subjective one) that lends to one's superiority over the other is the established "natural talent" that Ollie has for the bow. When he first killed and wanted to give up the bow and went to a monastery to gain peace he was made to study other methods of archery. When he first arrived it had been after months of travel and during that time he had not touched a bow but still showed his incredible accuracy without constant practice. He even showed this when his first shot was with a high weight bow that because of the lack of use recently he struggled to even draw the bow string enough. He was then made to study the ways of Kyudo ( Japanese archery) and zen archery. He asked why he had to learn how to use a bow when he wanted to give it up and was told that to do so he first had to master it completely. He did so in mere weeks which amazed the monks. They stated that the only way he could have done so was that the bow was actually an extension of his body, that his soul felt as much a part of the bow as it did his arm. He was told that he would likely have to live a few more lives using the bow before he was anywhere near the point of getting past it, he was too connected to it. This aspect was re-visited when Conner first came on the scene. he wanted to be like his father but his great desire actually (according to the monks) blocked him from that connection. Ironically he had the exact same connection to hand to hand combat, hence why he could achieve mastery of that in far shorter time than should have been needed.
As i said, this really proves nothing. It's completely subjective and there is nothing to say that one without the same "connection" can't achieve the same level with training that one with the connection achieves without. IMO this explains why in feats Ollie matches Clint who trained for longer and from an earlier age. Based on the body of their feats both archers are completely equal as I see it. Pre the Natas training Clint would have had a distinct H2H combat advantage over Ollie (with his training from Steve and Swordsman) , that advantage now is minor at best.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 4, 2012 22:14:12 GMT -5
It should be noted that Clint was Ronin for quite some time and while using that moniker, hadn't touched a bow either. I think it was more than a year in comic book time. Once Mockingbird came back, he picked up the bow and used it with as much perfection as he usually did, without any kind of degradation in skill. He didn't even have trouble pulling the string... unlike SOME people.
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Post by Power NeXus on Dec 5, 2012 1:02:20 GMT -5
In battles involving characters like these, I've never understood why it's important to determine who is the superior marksman. They are both, in all practicality, flawless marksmen. If we can at least agree that both of these guys could shoot the wings off a fly's back at a hundred yards, it really doesn't matter at all if one of them gets his shot just a hair closer to the fly's body. It's one thing to debate deficits between characters in strength, speed, fighting skill, etc. Deficits like those can be rather large and have a major influence on the outcome of a fight. But accuracy just isn't measured in the same way as those other traits. Say Clint's arrow hits in the middle of the fly's wings, cutting them in half. Ollie's arrow hits the fly's wings at the base, cutting them off clean. So what? What part of this fight is going to be effected by that much of a deficit in accuracy?
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 5, 2012 1:12:57 GMT -5
In battles involving characters like these, I've never understood why it's important to determine who is the superior marksman. They are both, in all practicality, flawless marksmen. If we can at least agree that both of these guys could shoot the wings off a fly's back at a hundred yards, it really doesn't matter at all if one of them gets his shot just a hair closer to the fly's body. It's one thing to debate deficits between characters in strength, speed, fighting skill, etc. Deficits like those can be rather large and have a major influence on the outcome of a fight. But accuracy just isn't measured in the same way as those other traits. Say Clint's arrow hits in the middle of the fly's wings, cutting them in half. Ollie's arrow hits the fly's wings at the base, cutting them off clean. So what? What part of this fight is going to be effected by that much of a deficit in accuracy? True enough. Especially when these characters are otherwise limited to human levels for every other aspect. Namely that if they are pierced in a vital organ, they will die. It wont matter if one was aiming for the left chamber but only hit the right or if it was dead on. However, it should be noted that Clint has jumped through the air to dodge absolutely flawlessly. He also did it naked. GA couldn't match such daring agility.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Dec 5, 2012 9:28:40 GMT -5
In battles involving characters like these, I've never understood why it's important to determine who is the superior marksman. They are both, in all practicality, flawless marksmen. If we can at least agree that both of these guys could shoot the wings off a fly's back at a hundred yards, it really doesn't matter at all if one of them gets his shot just a hair closer to the fly's body. It's one thing to debate deficits between characters in strength, speed, fighting skill, etc. Deficits like those can be rather large and have a major influence on the outcome of a fight. But accuracy just isn't measured in the same way as those other traits. Say Clint's arrow hits in the middle of the fly's wings, cutting them in half. Ollie's arrow hits the fly's wings at the base, cutting them off clean. So what? What part of this fight is going to be effected by that much of a deficit in accuracy? True enough. Especially when these characters are otherwise limited to human levels for every other aspect. Namely that if they are pierced in a vital organ, they will die. It wont matter if one was aiming for the left chamber but only hit the right or if it was dead on. However, it should be noted that Clint has jumped through the air to dodge absolutely flawlessly. He also did it naked. GA couldn't match such daring agility. I think your underestimating Ollie's agility here. Yes he has also done some amazing dodges, but he's more likely to simply stop what he would have to dodge. Example the time he shot a bullet fired at him out of the air with an arrow and put the next into the barrel of the gun shooting. Or the time he saw the glint of reflection of a snipers scope and fired an arrow into the scope (on the top of the high rise over from him) to knock the scope into the snipers head and KO him. In pure archery this is an even contest. neither one gets thee nod over the other. Pre Natas training Clint would have won a H2H fight, now I'd say it's a little closer (Clint probably still just getting the nod). Ollie has over the course of his history used less trick arrows (vast tracks of time when he used only normal arrows as well). I stick by what I've always said- it's a stalemate.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Dec 5, 2012 9:32:05 GMT -5
A) Hawkeye (Clint Barton) - bow & quiver, unlimited normal arrows, 2 explosive arrows, a net arrow, a sonic arrow, and 2 pairs of nunchuks B) Green Arrow (Oliver Queen) - bow & quiver, unlimited normal arrows, 1 glue arrow, 1 boxing glove arrow, and a katana Ummmm just noticed the disparity of gear here. Clint takes it - he's better armed.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 5, 2012 16:41:26 GMT -5
True enough. Especially when these characters are otherwise limited to human levels for every other aspect. Namely that if they are pierced in a vital organ, they will die. It wont matter if one was aiming for the left chamber but only hit the right or if it was dead on. However, it should be noted that Clint has jumped through the air to dodge absolutely flawlessly. He also did it naked. GA couldn't match such daring agility. I think your underestimating Ollie's agility here. Yes he has also done some amazing dodges, but he's more likely to simply stop what he would have to dodge. Example the time he shot a bullet fired at him out of the air with an arrow and put the next into the barrel of the gun shooting. Or the time he saw the glint of reflection of a snipers scope and fired an arrow into the scope (on the top of the high rise over from him) to knock the scope into the snipers head and KO him. In pure archery this is an even contest. neither one gets thee nod over the other. Pre Natas training Clint would have won a H2H fight, now I'd say it's a little closer (Clint probably still just getting the nod). Ollie has over the course of his history used less trick arrows (vast tracks of time when he used only normal arrows as well). I stick by what I've always said- it's a stalemate. I was just being a clown. I just wanted an excuse to reference this scan: And use it as the reason why Clint wins.
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Painkiller
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?I?m sorry, did I ruin your concentration??
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Post by Painkiller on Dec 9, 2012 6:48:49 GMT -5
I think your underestimating Ollie's agility here. Yes he has also done some amazing dodges, but he's more likely to simply stop what he would have to dodge. Example the time he shot a bullet fired at him out of the air with an arrow and put the next into the barrel of the gun shooting. Or the time he saw the glint of reflection of a snipers scope and fired an arrow into the scope (on the top of the high rise over from him) to knock the scope into the snipers head and KO him. In pure archery this is an even contest. neither one gets thee nod over the other. Pre Natas training Clint would have won a H2H fight, now I'd say it's a little closer (Clint probably still just getting the nod). Ollie has over the course of his history used less trick arrows (vast tracks of time when he used only normal arrows as well). I stick by what I've always said- it's a stalemate. I was just being a clown. I just wanted an excuse to reference this scan: And use it as the reason why Clint wins. Is that scan real?
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Post by Strafe Prower on Dec 13, 2012 5:01:58 GMT -5
Clint wins here IMO
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