Painkiller
Team Buster Ledger
?I?m sorry, did I ruin your concentration??
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Post by Painkiller on Oct 18, 2011 1:21:17 GMT -5
Fight takes place:  Sentry = A Blue Marvel = B Rules:- Sentry cannot become the Void
- Pre-death non-Viod Sentry
- Win via KO or Kill
- Current Blue Marvel
- Morals on
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
It's time for Powergrids 2.0
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Post by creator on Oct 18, 2011 6:29:29 GMT -5
This ones going to be interesting  I assume by Pre-death, Non-void Sentry, this does not include any matter manipulation abilities ? They have faught briefly back in the Blue Marvel mini series. Although Sentry took the win, Blue Marvel had him on the ropes and Sentry had a good distraction device (the other Avengers). Both are reasonably well balanced in terms of strength as both have displayed huge strength feats that are on par with each other. Their kinectic durability and endurance seems quite even as well. I think we have seen more super speed feats from Sentry than we have from Blue Marvel so that might be something to explore. I don't think we really have a lot of info on their respective combat skills. Thinking about their energy projection powers, Sentry has demonstrated fire/plasma/light types in a basic format (pillar / wave of energy). Not sure if this would hurt Blue Marvel. However Blue Marvel can project Anti-matter (associated with the Negative Zone) type energy. Sentry is at his weakest in the Negative Zone, becoming seriously depowered there. It is feasible that this energy Blue Marvel can project could harm or weaken the Sentry making him more vulnerable to Blue Marvel's attacks. |
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Oct 18, 2011 6:58:41 GMT -5
LOL You know a team is unbalanced if all the other Avengers count as distraction.
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Post by Morpheus on Oct 18, 2011 7:11:39 GMT -5
Tired of bogus fights in the Avengers' expense to make new characters look ZOMG awesome. And that's what Blue Marvel's mini-series was. An inferior rehash of Marvel Knights Sentry.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Oct 18, 2011 7:22:12 GMT -5
An inferior rehash of Sentry is a line I thought I would never hear.
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Post by Morpheus on Oct 18, 2011 7:27:45 GMT -5
Sentry and Blue Marvel aren't particularly similar as characters, but the concept behind the mini-series that created them is. And given how good MK: Sentry was, it's not an insult to Blue Marvel - I just wish they would have gone for something more original.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Oct 18, 2011 7:29:49 GMT -5
Ironically enough the Blue Marvel Miniseries is one of the few times I actually liked Sentry, because he actually looked like he knew what he was doing for once.
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Post by Morpheus on Oct 18, 2011 7:52:41 GMT -5
There have been several series/issues like that. Jenkins' Sentry stands above the rest, though. Best depiction of the character and a very good series in its own right.
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Post by ckal on Oct 18, 2011 8:59:38 GMT -5
I think this is a great fight. Both characters have potential to be great characters if used properly, and I would like to see Blue Marvel become a regularly appearing character. Blue Marvel and Sentry came across as pretty even. But it seems the writer did intend to make Blue Marvel look superior as he was the only one who could defeat Anti-Man, while the entire Avengers team could not, as well as punching Sentry into orbit. In the end, I see Blue Marvel taking this fight. Saying the Avengers were a distraction is a bit harsh. They engaged him and were doing well, then once Sentry engaged him he told them all to stand back because he wanted to go at him alone. After Sentry was punched into orbit, the Avengers engaged Blue Marvel again, and he started using some anti-matter, which overpowered them. Then Sentry came back from orbit and KO'd Blue Marvel with his dive bomb. In the Sentry vs. Blue Marvel fight, they came off pretty even, but a couple things: 1) I've questioned BM's durability against power houses after his beat down from King Hyperion. But, he kept on going so I would say he has some admirable resilience. It may be too little appearances to accurately conclude, though. 2) Was Blue Marvel going all out against Sentry? He ended up saying "I got your ticked off right here" then sent Sentry into orbit with one punch, seemingly temporarily knocking him out. 3) During their encounter, Blue Marvel clearly did not use anti-matter in any way. If Sentry is weak against it like you say, then that should have clearly tipped the odds into BM's favor. Both are reasonably well balanced in terms of strength as both have displayed huge strength feats that are on par with each other. I'm unaware of top end Sentry strength feats, outside of his combat. See my opinion about BM's durability above. The fact that he can shield himself with Anti-Matter helps him out here though a pretty big deal. Blue Marvel has been 'blitzed' by two characters, Sentry and King Hyperion. I would say that Sentry's wouldn't be applicable since he caught BM off guard. With King Hyperion, there were both standing there well aware of each other ready to throw down. Although, BM was able to react fast enough and shield himself when King Hyperion shot his eye lasers at him from a few feet away. Adam Brashear was a US Marine, which comes with the applicable hand to hand combat skills. Not that he demonstrated anything over than straight punches in his fights, though. I've never seen Sentry use energy projection, but that's because I haven't read everything Sentry. What issue numbers are these? Like I said above, in their encounter, BM clearly did not use any anti-matter attacks. This clearly would have tipped the scales in his favor if it affects Sentry as much as you say. Blue Marvel can also use Anti-Matter in more was than just offensive projection. He has shown to be able to use it like a rudimentary construct as well (created a shield to protect himself, creating a bubble to protect a baby). He can also use it to empower his physical attacks, as well as offensive projection like you already stated. |
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Post by Morpheus on Oct 18, 2011 9:11:22 GMT -5
@ ckal - Sentry can expel amounts of energy from his body at will. He did so when the Absorbing Man tried to drain him (and effectively overloaded, and nearly killed him), he did so during the invasion of the Mighty Avengers in Latveria when he unleashed an amount of energy that Iron Man absorbed in order to re-energize himself, and I also recall him doing it during WWH, which resulted in several blocks being blown to bits. They mostly seem as raw bursts of energy as opposed to regular blasts from their hands/eyes that other characters use.
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Post by ckal on Oct 18, 2011 9:36:53 GMT -5
OK. I remember seeing that in his fight with WWH, wasn't sure if creator was referring to actual controlled offensive attacks.
Care to comment on anything else in my post?
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Post by Morpheus on Oct 18, 2011 9:41:19 GMT -5
Your recollection of the BM mini seems better than mine, but I don't have any real issues with your analysis, off hand. Just thought I'd comment on Sentry since I've read a good deal of him, albeit inadvertently.
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Post by ckal on Oct 18, 2011 9:50:32 GMT -5
OK. I'll wait for creator's response, or if anyone else wants to share their opinion.
I wish a competent writer would do something good with Sentry. I also wish Blue Marvel would be a regular in the MU. Couple more powerhouses wouldn't be a bad thing, as long as they don't chump Thor lol.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by creator on Oct 18, 2011 12:19:21 GMT -5
But it seems the writer did intend to make Blue Marvel look superior as he was the only one who could defeat Anti-Man, while the entire Avengers team could not, as well as punching Sentry into orbit. In the end, I see Blue Marvel taking this fight. It was a plot device in its most basic form. Man power by antimatter could only be stopped by another man who could also absorb antimatter. I don't think it was harsh at all. They were there solely as 'filler' for the main fight with the Sentry. Even Wonderman got thrown around and he is far from a lightweight. They were props, setting the stage. In this I agree with Morph. BM appeared to relatively easily withstand attacks from Ironman and Wonderman. On top of that he took what appeared to be pretty much all the Sentry had to finally put him down, including the final attack that basically took him unawares (Sentry's powerdive). I think his durability is just fine considering that both he and Sentry were bleeding from that battle. I wrote about this somewhere on the Vine at the time when we started to see a rash of BM threads (the novelty quickly wore off...). This character had not had that many fights and his experience of using his powers was curtailed by his enforced retirement. Also I don't think he had encountered that many beings where he could cut lose. So my opinion is that when he realised what he was up against and he understood that he could cut lose, he did. Anyway that sounds feasible and meets the criteria of what we knew. Why should BM resort to using antimatter ? He has no idea that Sentry is weaker against it and as with many 'superman' types, the preferred method of attack is with fists. Look at Sentry. Look at Gladiator. Look at Hyperion. Fists first. Energy attack second (if fists fail). This was BM's first outing in combat after decades. Perhaps he felt rusty. Perhaps he feared how much damage it was going to do. Perhaps he did no get chance to use it on Sentry thanks to the power dive. Perhaps the writer did not want the big fight ending quickly. (Insert alternative reason X here........there are many others.)Lets start with his disposal of Terrax. He caught the down swing of Terrax (who was using both hands) with 1 hand. Although not a cosmic heavy weight, Tearrx is still pretty strong and can amp his strength up with his power cosmic. He snapped Terrax's axe, an item created by Galactus, so I dare say the material is pretty damn strong. By the way in this fight he also appeared to block Terrax's energy beam with a bubble of light (ref to later question on energy projection). Other strength feats (some more difficult to quantify) are 1. Fighting the Collective in space. Considering how powerful that being was and Sentry 'stood' there exchanging blows with him. 2. Fight against Genis who was almost off the charts. Again exchanges blows with him. 3. No so much a great feat but he flattened Ironman in a similar manner to Thor (when he returned from the dead). 4. Faught WWH to a virtual standstill. 5. He created a gigantic crevice in the ground when he struck the surface of the moon I think (when he was visiting the Inhumans). The fact that he did not use it in his earlier fight says that he can augment his durability. His baseline durability still looks very high. If you remember back to the Blue Marvel mini, he was described as having carried a hydrogen bomb (a polaris missile on board a space shuttle) over the Atlantic ocean and it detonated in his hands. He also withstood energy beam weapons from an attacking an armada of alien space warships. This was my point about Blue Marvel. We have little to go on so it is a point to discuss. As he has really on faught a few beings with supposedly great super speed (Sentry and King Hyp), are we to assume he has a similar level of speed ? I'll be lead here by the fact that when he knew what King Hyp was more about, he managed to raise his shield to block King Hyp's atomic vision, which means he should have some level of superhuman speed. Lets wait to see the skills and not assume anything. Well I made 1 reference above in his fight with Terrax. He also projected energy in his battle with WWH (the pillar of fire!). I think if the fight progressed and lasted longer, we would have seen BM use antimatter on him, not because he knows it as a weakness, but just as a normal attack. Well, I'm reliant on you guys to keep me up to speed on the battlesd nowdays that I have stepped back from reading / collecting  |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Oct 18, 2011 12:58:37 GMT -5
Blue Marvel.
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Post by ckal on Oct 18, 2011 15:19:49 GMT -5
creator-
I forgot about the bomb blowing up in his hands, and you are right about him taking a laser blast and he looks to have good durability against most others he fought, but against King Hyperion, he got absolutely shit wrecked by punches. This is why I mention resilience, because he was able to gather himself and come back and beat King Hyperion. Kevin Grevioux (creator of BM and writer of his mini) also wrote this appearance, so it's not like some random writer who didn't understand him wrote it. Maybe it's just he hasn't had enough appearances, or it is not normal for BM, but it happened. After he initially got messed up by KH, BM actually said that he was beaten, and was humiliated on more levels than he could imagine. Those are his exact words. Then he said that in that moment his prayers were answered and he found the strength, then he came back and absolutely crushed KH. This is why I am referring to resilience. It is a good trait for a superhero to have.
Wonderman got hit by BM and was knocked back, big deal? The exact same thing happened to BM (from Wonderman and Sentry), and Ares actually cut his face. It's not like the Avengers were trying to kill him, but subdue him.
Why would BM use anti-matter attacks? Because he uses them in just about every other combat scenario we have seen him in. He's not 'resorting' to it. It is standard usage for him.As I mentioned, there are several ways he uses anti-matter, down to the basic 'enhancing his physical punches.' BM actually used anti-matter in that same fight with Sentry and the Avengers. He used it against the Avengers and not Sentry himself. In fact, he used it about 3 seconds after he sent Sentry into orbit. So why he didn't use it against Sentry is beyond me. It doesn't have anything to do with him knowing or not knowing anti-matter is a weakness to Sentry, because BM uses anti-matter all the time.
Like I already said, I'm aware of some of Sentry's combat feats which we can probably translate to strength, but I don't think he has any actual lifting feats. Not to say either Sentry or BM are definitively stronger than the other, it was just a statement that doesn't have much bearing on this discussion since they were depicted to be roughly equal in their fight.
Doesn't seem like Sentry actually uses his energy projection all that much, or as much as Blue Marvel does. I don't think it would harm him all that much either.
Yes, Anti-Man was finally defeated by causing him to implode, but BM actually defeated him in 1962 with purely physical combat and nothing like causing him to implode. But, BM did say that when Anti-Man came back in present day, he was unprepared for how much Anti-Man's power had grown. This was also when the Avengers fought Anti-Man in the first issue in present day, and absolutely got their asses handed to them.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by creator on Oct 18, 2011 17:06:44 GMT -5
I forgot about the bomb blowing up in his hands, and you are right about him taking a laser blast and he looks to have good durability against most others he fought, but against King Hyperion, he got absolutely shit wrecked by punches. This is why I mention resilience, because he was able to gather himself and come back and beat King Hyperion. Kevin Grevioux (creator of BM and writer of his mini) also wrote this appearance, so it's not like some random writer who didn't understand him wrote it. Maybe it's just he hasn't had enough appearances, or it is not normal for BM, but it happened. After he initially got messed up by KH, BM actually said that he was beaten, and was humiliated on more levels than he could imagine. Those are his exact words. Then he said that in that moment his prayers were answered and he found the strength, then he came back and absolutely crushed KH. This is why I am referring to resilience. It is a good trait for a superhero to have. As I said BM's durability is phenomenal. A Polaris missile from that era looks to have a 600 ktonne yield. That means he would have seen temperatures in excess of 1,000,000 deg C and pressures I can scarcely imagine. Lets be clear, Ares does not subdue. He maims, kills and butchers......remember the description of him....Thor combined with Wolverine. He is capable of engaging Hercules in hand to hand combat and that strength (70 ish tonnes) backing a bladed weapon will cut in to most things. Wonder man has on numerous occasions been described as almost as strong as Thor. He has beaten the Abomination, the Thing and Goliath with his fists. I think his blows doing something small and basic (like driving BM back) is a testimony to BM rather than something to simply dismiss. And Wonderman likely hit BM with everything he had based on what BM had already taken and what BM dished out during that fight. Wonder man usually subdues by a ko.....which he did not achieve. Let me repeat what I wrote before. It is copied below, He has no idea that Sentry is weaker against it and as with many 'superman' types, the preferred method of attack is with fists. Look at Sentry. Look at Gladiator. Look at Hyperion. Fists first. Energy attack second (if fists fail).Let's look at this simply. In all of BM's appearances does he strike first with his fists (non enhanced) or with antimatter ? You tell me what happened in the fight with the Avengers......wait you already did. BM engaged the Avengers and after he dispatched the Sentry he then uses his antimatter projection in the fight. So he had been fighting for a while with his fists before employing an energy attack. Just like Sentry does. Just like Hyperion does. Just like Gladiator does. The first time BM uses antimatter as a first attack in a combat, let me know and we can celebrate a superman clone breaking the mold. We have so little data on Sentry's energy projection it is difficult to estimate the actual effects. What we do know is that his energy power output is sufficient to overload Absorbing Man. To put that in perspective, Absorbing Man had duplicated the power of Thor's physical form and some exceptionally high energy forms. The only time he has really failed to duplicate a power level in the past is when he disintegrated when trying to absorb the power of the entire planet Earth. If Sentry can release a level of energy similar, it potentially should hurt BM as it would be many times greater than a 600 ktonne explosion. |
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Post by Morpheus on Oct 18, 2011 17:17:16 GMT -5
Absorbing Man repeatedly failed against War Hulk, as well. He got one-shotted both times.
The only IM vs Sentry fight that I've seen ended with Iron Man winning via incapacitation. I'd love to see the other if you have any scans/issue number, creator.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by creator on Oct 18, 2011 18:17:46 GMT -5
Absorbing Man repeatedly failed against War Hulk, as well. He got one-shotted both times.The only IM vs Sentry fight that I've seen ended with Iron Man winning via incapacitation. I'd love to see the other if you have any scans/issue number, creator. So Absorbing Man could not absorb the power of WWH ? Not that he got defeated but that he could simply not duplicate his power ? And as I'm working off my iPad, here are some links (see below) to the battle I remember, where iron man is getting his ass handed to him. Sentry is physically dominating him so let's be clear that the only way ironman could win is by playing to the psychological weakness of the sentry, a weakness Thor does not have so again Ironman was physically dominated in that combat and ultimately defeated. imageshack.us/photo/my-images/386/6zf7.jpg/imageshack.us/photo/my-images/359/7sn3.jpg/imageshack.us/f/489/9aj9.jpg/ |
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Post by Morpheus on Oct 18, 2011 18:29:58 GMT -5
War Hulk, not WWH. That was during the Hulk's short time as a Horseman of Apocalypse. The Hulk was augmented by Celestial technology, and even stopped the Juggernaut while in motion (he was also seemingly ready to behead Cain before being interrupted). In their first encounter, he grabbed Creel and overloaded him within seconds (then shattered him to pieces). In the second, he beat him in 2-3 hits and would have killed him if not for Rick Jones.
Actually, no, that's the fight Iron Man won (and therefore the only IM vs Sentry 1on1 fight).
While the book makes it clear Iron Man can't outpower Sentry (naturally), Iron Man puts up a great showing in durability (withstands multiple hits, along with one blitz from behind while he was trying to take the fight away from civilians), strength, since he makes a non-voice hearing/off his rocker Sentry bleed with a punch, as well as speed (Sentry gave him props and even proclaimed, "damn, he's fast"). Yes, Sentry was obviously superior but it was by no means the equivalent to OF Thor vs Iron Man in Thor # 3, a fight in which IM was trashed from start to finish and couldn't even put a dent on Thor in the slightest. In that fight, Iron Man casually flies away after incapacitating Sentry by using CLOCK without as much as a dent to his suit.
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