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Post by Khaos King on Jun 2, 2011 15:47:02 GMT -5
I see no reason why the grids can't be used as gospel. They represent a majority viewpoint based upon feats that have been observed which is the exact same thing that most battles come down to essentially. b/c than a person can simply site what creator posted and has not been challenged without having read any comics themselves and simply being an opinion rather than a solid argument grounded with comic reference and feats. bottom line it isnt debating and a majority opinion is not factual based argument
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creator
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Post by creator on Jun 2, 2011 15:48:57 GMT -5
if you are referring to Cap as in Bucky he has a cybernetic arm not sure its strength lvl but it is clearly superhuman.. Steve Rogers is also superhuman and has average feats that put guys like Bane to shame from wrestling or manhandling 5 to 10 tonners which is PIS but no more than Midnighter. Wolverine and Steve are both augmented humans and one of them is a Mutant with adamantium, he alone is already above Bane with the displayed strength of crushing iron bars with his hands, steel/metal vertebrae with a simple grip.. throwing motorcycles with one arm, straining to hold a cargo elevator, ripping heads off with a kick, punching through skulls of werewolves. : / forgot to mention he hauled, carried a grand piano through a jungle for over a week. iirc even his bone version has one armed tossed a metal trash bin, carried the hulk to the X mansion. that alone makes him a 2 tonner if not damn close. www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=382350&pagenumber=914i understand that these are just your personal views but it seems very skewed and wrong and i want to know what you are basing their status as even Rex Tyler seems like it is wrong along with many others like kraven what are you using to put them in a bracket where others are clearly their equal if not superior but are placed below them? Does anyone else think that we need to change Capt America (Rogers), Wolverine and Midnighter ?
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by creator on Jun 2, 2011 15:56:10 GMT -5
b/c than a person can simply site what creator posted and has not been challenged without having read any comics themselves and simply being an opinion rather than a solid argument grounded with comic reference and feats. bottom line it isnt debating and a majority opinion is not factual based argument The point is you can participate in this process and have the debates now - to ensure that the data is checked and accurate. How much you participate is up to you. I am encouraging you to participate and put your view forward so that the figures can be as accurate as possible. But ultimately it is up to you. From your postings so far, it seems like you have a problem with me, as these grids are an extension of my thoughts / opinions. To some degree they are, but only so far in that I created the framework for the grids. I want the Ledgers to populate them because the Ledgers represent a very informed group of comic readers whom I respect. So please help populate them.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by creator on Jun 2, 2011 16:10:30 GMT -5
His base level pre-crisis was low and he had to raise it, but there is no evidence that Post-Crisis has the same problem. I'll post some fights for you. Note that Geo-Force covers his hand in Earth, but it is never stated that it increases his strength, IIRC. There you go. You can base your opinion of off these. The one shotting of Mammoth I would partially attribute to Geo-Force striking mammoth from surprise and striking his ears (a weaker spot on most beings). Busting Rayners shield was done when Rayner was 'green' (pardon the pun ). I think Rayner could errect a shield that would resist Geo-Force if he prepared for it. The fight with the Olympian was more interesting but I would say that the Olympain was winning it until Geo-Force used his erath control to swamp the Olympain with an earth tsunami. Geo-Force was stunned and slurring his words on at least one occasion so I would say the Olympian had the upper hand for some of that battle. In this case I did not get the feeling that this battle convinced me on Geo-Force's strength level Have we got any more ?
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Post by Strafe Prower on Jun 2, 2011 16:13:02 GMT -5
His base level pre-crisis was low and he had to raise it, but there is no evidence that Post-Crisis has the same problem. I'll post some fights for you. Note that Geo-Force covers his hand in Earth, but it is never stated that it increases his strength, IIRC. There you go. You can base your opinion of off these. The one shotting of Mammoth I would partially attribute to Geo-Force striking mammoth from surprise and striking his ears (a weaker spot on most beings). Busting Rayners shield was done when Rayner was 'green' (pardon the pun ). I think Rayner could errect a shield that would resist Geo-Force if he prepared for it. The fight with the Olympian was more interesting but I would say that the Olympain was winning it until Geo-Force used his erath control to swamp the Olympain with an earth tsunami. Geo-Force was stunned and slurring his words on at least one occasion so I would say the Olympian had the upper hand for some of that battle. In this case I did not get the feeling that this battle convinced me on Geo-Force's strength level Have we got any more ? I haven't read a good amount of his appearances yet, but thats all I have as of now. Place him where you will.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Jun 2, 2011 18:52:32 GMT -5
creator. Now that you mention it, I may have to revisit my rankings for Steele and Robotman. The ranking 4 Rex is right, but I was basing my rank 4 them on Steele's fight with Nuklon around annual 1 of ASS. And Danny's comment in YAS comparing Arn Munro to Robotman. Thinking on it now, all Nuk' said was if feels like steel in that glove. Your right there feats are much closer to H'man. I'll chech some feats when I get home and more accurately rank them.
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Post by ckal on Jun 2, 2011 19:07:17 GMT -5
Creator- I was always under the impression the Midgard Serpent weighed much more than an asteroid Blue Marvel has lifted. Wasn't it supposed to be about 1/3 the size of the earth or something? I don't remember any of the details, but I would think the Midgard Serpent is a much better feat than an asteroid the size of Arkansas. The weight I have included is just my estimate based on images from the Thor comic from a long time ago (the atory arc when he fights the Serpent and is suffering from Hela's curse). If we have more images, I am more than happy to review the weight and see if we come up with something new. I'll PM you some scans.
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jun 2, 2011 19:33:10 GMT -5
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jun 2, 2011 19:39:35 GMT -5
if you are referring to Cap as in Bucky he has a cybernetic arm not sure its strength lvl but it is clearly superhuman.. Steve Rogers is also superhuman and has average feats that put guys like Bane to shame from wrestling or manhandling 5 to 10 tonners which is PIS but no more than Midnighter. Wolverine and Steve are both augmented humans and one of them is a Mutant with adamantium, he alone is already above Bane with the displayed strength of crushing iron bars with his hands, steel/metal vertebrae with a simple grip.. throwing motorcycles with one arm, straining to hold a cargo elevator, ripping heads off with a kick, punching through skulls of werewolves. : / forgot to mention he hauled, carried a grand piano through a jungle for over a week. iirc even his bone version has one armed tossed a metal trash bin, carried the hulk to the X mansion. that alone makes him a 2 tonner if not damn close. www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=382350&pagenumber=914i understand that these are just your personal views but it seems very skewed and wrong and i want to know what you are basing their status as even Rex Tyler seems like it is wrong along with many others like kraven what are you using to put them in a bracket where others are clearly their equal if not superior but are placed below them? Does anyone else think that we need to change Capt America (Rogers), Wolverine and Midnighter ? I think we need to change Steve and Logan. Both are above peak humans. A 6 sounds perfect for them.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jun 2, 2011 23:17:31 GMT -5
That tank feat for Spidey may put him above a 10 tonner. Even the lightest modern tanks are above 10 tons in weight and that thing is definitely not a light tank. I would still like Creator to take a look at it but to me that definitely puts him above 10 tons.
I would suggest that you go ahead and post the scans ckal, as this is supposed to be a Ledger project.
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Post by ckal on Jun 2, 2011 23:35:28 GMT -5
I PM'd them to creator as he wanted to take a look at them. If further community input is required, I'll post them here.
Or if I just get around to it later.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Jun 3, 2011 2:44:04 GMT -5
Hourman (Rex Tyler) Rank 6. All his GA appearances stated he was "strength of ten men" peak feat lifting a car. I've seen nothing to suggest that Rick is any higher. Atom (Al Prat- post 48 when his "atomic" strength kicked in) Rank 10 - While most of his lift feats would be around the 25 tonne range. His battle with Nuklon in Infinity Inc 8 (or 9) would put him around a 35 to 40 tonner IMO. pre the Atomic strength 4. Citizen Steel rank 13 with suit, rank 16 without Wildcat - 4 (some PIS showings aside) Liberty Belle/ Jesse Quick (with her mother's "matra" in play) 7 Powergirl 20 or 21 Arn Munro 9 Dr fate (as in Golden Age half helmet version without Nabu's powers) - 19, though his feats in the GA would have only had him as a 15 or 16 his retconned feats certainly lift him to that level. Just below a 41 level Superman (mid shift in power, where he hadn't quite gotten to the levels of Captain Marvel) Robotman (Robert Crane) - 9 Robotman (Cliff Steele) - 11 Commander Steele - 9 Seeing some of the feats that Powergirl has demonstrated in the 90's and more recently in her comic, I would be tempted to raise her up to around rank 23 at least. I had an impression that Hourman was of a similar strength level to Commander Steel and Robotman (Crane) but slightly inferior ? OK I've checked a few All Star Squadron issues. I don't have Robotman and Steele rated high. However there is a difference between them and Hourman. In early issues of ASS Robotman ripped a fighter plane in half, threw canon balls at air craft which went through them as though shot from a canon and by holding support girder in the arm of the statue of Liberty held it up (after bombed) until it could have a makeshift repair made. Steel also tore a plane as if it was paper. Both lifted Tanks (though to be honest that was in Brainwave's "dream dimension", but still they would have had to believe it was possible to do it. So I'd say they are more likely a 9 (maybe 10 not too sure) As far as Hourman, aside from the one PIS showing of him matching blows with Baron Blitzcreig (who he should have been no where in the same league as) he is definitely a 3 at most 4 tonner. When it comes to PG i haven't read her latest series, so if feats there are greater fair enough. All I have to go on are her JSA and All Star appearances (both 70's and recent JSA spin off), her JLE JLI (which let's face it she was quite depowered after the "surgery" done by Superman's heat vision.
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creator
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Post by creator on Jun 3, 2011 6:31:13 GMT -5
I haven't read a good amount of his appearances yet, but thats all I have as of now. Place him where you will. Let's see if we can turn up anymore info on him. Although it was an elseworlds story, The Nail, starred Geo-Force and he was supposely one of the strongest men on Earth before the advent of Superman. All the characters displayed the same powers just different histories. I place him in at rank 16 until someone says otherwise.
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creator
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Post by creator on Jun 3, 2011 6:32:53 GMT -5
creator. Now that you mention it, I may have to revisit my rankings for Steele and Robotman. The ranking 4 Rex is right, but I was basing my rank 4 them on Steele's fight with Nuklon around annual 1 of ASS. And Danny's comment in YAS comparing Arn Munro to Robotman. Thinking on it now, all Nuk' said was if feels like steel in that glove. Your right there feats are much closer to H'man. I'll chech some feats when I get home and more accurately rank them. Thanks.
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creator
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Post by creator on Jun 3, 2011 6:37:01 GMT -5
I PM'd them to creator as he wanted to take a look at them. If further community input is required, I'll post them here. Or if I just get around to it later. The scans are from a long time, before the more modern (90's) Thor take on the Midgard Serpent. They certainly show the Serpent encircling the earth at least twice but the diameter of the serpent does vary in those scans quite alarmingly. I plan to do a recalc on the Serpent's dimensions and repost. The weight will go up and by a lot.
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creator
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Post by creator on Jun 3, 2011 6:38:38 GMT -5
OK I've checked a few All Star Squadron issues. I don't have Robotman and Steele rated high. However there is a difference between them and Hourman. In early issues of ASS Robotman ripped a fighter plane in half, threw canon balls at air craft which went through them as though shot from a canon and by holding support girder in the arm of the statue of Liberty held it up (after bombed) until it could have a makeshift repair made. Steel also tore a plane as if it was paper. Both lifted Tanks (though to be honest that was in Brainwave's "dream dimension", but still they would have had to believe it was possible to do it. So I'd say they are more likely a 9 (maybe 10 not too sure) As far as Hourman, aside from the one PIS showing of him matching blows with Baron Blitzcreig (who he should have been no where in the same league as) he is definitely a 3 at most 4 tonner. When it comes to PG i haven't read her latest series, so if feats there are greater fair enough. All I have to go on are her JSA and All Star appearances (both 70's and recent JSA spin off), her JLE JLI (which let's face it she was quite depowered after the "surgery" done by Superman's heat vision. Thanks for the recheck.
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creator
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Post by creator on Jun 3, 2011 6:42:47 GMT -5
I think we need to change Steve and Logan. Both are above peak humans. A 6 sounds perfect for them. Updated. Does anyone disagree ?
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Post by Strafe Prower on Jun 3, 2011 6:44:47 GMT -5
I haven't read a good amount of his appearances yet, but thats all I have as of now. Place him where you will. Let's see if we can turn up anymore info on him. Although it was an elseworlds story, The Nail, starred Geo-Force and he was supposely one of the strongest men on Earth before the advent of Superman. All the characters displayed the same powers just different histories. I place him in at rank 16 until someone says otherwise. I think that might be a bit low, but I will bring more evidence and just correct it later
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by creator on Jun 3, 2011 6:45:29 GMT -5
I will look at these tonight and come back to you as Comicvine seems to be responding slowly.
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creator
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Post by creator on Jun 3, 2011 6:45:55 GMT -5
Compiled List
Rank 1 Aunt May
Rank 2 Prof X
Rank 3 Black Lightning Cyclops
Rank 4 Atom (Al Pratt) Daredevil Iron Fist (unenhanced) Kingpin Wildcat
Rank 5 Archangel Bane (without Venom) Iron Fist (enhanced)
Rank 6 Bane (on Venom) Black Bolt (unenhanced) Black Panther Cap America Karnak Kraven Midnighter Shield (without Suit) Wolverine
Rank 7 Hourman (Rex Tyler) Jessie Quick (with mantra) Liberty Belle (with mantra)
Rank 8 Tombstone
Rank 9 American Eagle Arn Munro Commander Steel Lizard Luke Cage Puma Robotman (Crane) Scorpion (Gargan) Silvermane Spiderman
Rank 10 Atom (Al Pratt, Atomic Strength) Shield (with suit) Rank 11 Robotman (Steel) Rank 12
Rank 13 Citizen Steel (with costume) Invincible
Rank 14
Rank 15
Rank 16 Citizen Steel (no costume) Geo-Force Rank 17 Hulk – Classic (calm) Thing Rank 18 Dark Nebula (TK) Rank 19 Dr Fate - GA
Rank 20
Rank 21
Rank 22 Kryptonians - PC (New Krypton) Rank 23 Powergirl Thor
Rank 24
Rank 25 Blue Marvel Hulk – WWH
Rank 26 Black Adam Capt Marvel (Batson) Despro Martian Manhunter Superman Wonder Woman
Rank 27 Superboy Prime Superman - PC
Rank 28 Superman - SA
Rank 29
Rank 30 Eternity Living Tribunal
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