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Post by Erik-El on Jun 3, 2011 13:22:48 GMT -5
Well you posted one of the pics but it still is not showing the on-panel feat.
As for the barbell, it should not even be possible. He still would have flown along with the barbell when he hit the baddie with it. It would have carried them both with it actually. Plus by your own acknowledgment, the throwing of the barbell was going too far. Why is one half of the feat credible and the second half not?
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 3, 2011 13:25:27 GMT -5
What I mean is that the limo flipping shows after the roll. We have no idea how it got to the point that it was already flipped. There are many factors that could have done the work for DD.
Perhaps you can tell me what was going on in the issue, that I might have a better understanding of the situation?
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jun 3, 2011 13:32:21 GMT -5
Why is it still off-panel? Isn't clear that DD is flipping over that limo? I don't see why it could be not possible. I mean, yeah, it's too much, but DD is not like a peak human of real life. You can have peak humans in comics dodging bullets, but it makes sense because this is how peak humans are in comics. As i have said, the whole feat, might not be very well written, but the general point is that DD is much stronger then usual Olympic athletes. He is at least a low level peak human. Also, saying that a part of this feat makes no sense, does not necessarily means that the whole feat does not make sense. You can have cap beating Hulk, first using his shield to hurt him( which makes sense ) but then KOing him with his own fist. I think we can agree that this could be PIS. Does that mean that hurting Hulk with the shield is PIS as well?
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 3, 2011 13:37:16 GMT -5
No it is not. It is clear that he is at least in part responsible for the flip. That is why I asked you for context. You have one scan and nothing that proceeds it. I have no idea whether or not other factors play a part in this feat that make it logical.
Peak humans do not dodge bullets. No comic book peak human moves at 700 mph save Cassandra Cain and I am not even going to touch that subject. They bullet time. Huge difference.
Besides, if you admit that the feat is not well written, why try to use it as the foundation of your argument? Poorly written feats are excluded completely. What credible feats do you have that qualifies DD for peak human?
There is nothing indicating that Captain America even hurt Hulk with his fist.
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jun 3, 2011 14:17:41 GMT -5
I'm not really sure in which issue of the second of volume did that took place, but if i recall correctly the limo was in motion at the time. I can't really imagine if DD used any outside factor to flip the limo apart from his own strength. Also, i don't see how it could be any other factor apart from his strength anyway. Here is the first scan that i forgot to post, i think it could help www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/dd/108-389065/1353510_daredevilv2042089gp/105-1382223/Isn't Elektra a peak human? I have seen scans where she has deflected multiple bullets. Also, you don't have to be as fast as a bullet in order to dodge a bullet? Neither spider-man, nor daredevil, nor Steve, not Logan are as fast as bullets and all of them can dodge them. It's because i don't view at as a complete PIS. I view it mostly as a very exaggerated strength feat. I was just saying an example that i have made. I was not talking about an actual fight.
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 3, 2011 14:24:32 GMT -5
Okay you will need to provide the page before the one you posted because it is not showing us anything that provides context. It is just showing a conversation within the limo.
Elektra times bullets. Steve, Spider-Man and Logan are beyond human measuring so I fail to see how using them is a wise decision for you. In order to actually block a bullet coming at you without bullet timing, you do need to be of comparable speed. DD has super human senses that allow him to act faster than a human would be able to.
There is no such thing as partial PIS.
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jun 3, 2011 14:33:07 GMT -5
I don't have it, but what exactly would have happened, that would help DD to flip the limo, apart from his own strength. Especially when it was in motion. I mean we can see the limo being fine, then suddenly it was flipping. In the next page we see DD pushing it with his own arms. I think it's clear that it's based on his own strength. I'm not sure how bullet timing helps you to deflect( not dodge ) the bullet. In order to deflect it, you should be able to actually see it. I mentioned Steve and Logan, because you said that peak humans can not move at 700 pmh, so i assumed that you meant that in order to dudge a bullet, you should be as fast as it is. Logan and Steve are not. Let's take my example again. If we have Steve hurting Hulk with his Shield, then punching him with his fists and hurting him in both occasions. Are they both PIS or none?
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 3, 2011 14:44:27 GMT -5
The fact that it is in motion would help. An object in motion tends to stay in motion. Then there is how level the surface was that they were driving on. Was it a hill or a deep pot hole? Did the tires on one side get blown out? What was the weight distribution? All these things could have heavily influenced the so-called feat. Can you provide context for these?
Bullet timing is simply correctly predicting where the bullet will be. Not actually being fast enough to deflect it. Plus you actually have no idea how fast Steve and Logan's reaction timing is. I would very much assume comparable given their feats. Such as Steve describing why he can bullet dodge and Wolverine's reaction time feats alone. To be able to move an arm faster than several people can see at once is more than enough reaction speed.
I already told you that you are using Steve's Hulk fight inaccurately. There is absolutely zero evidence to support that Steve's punches hurt Hulk at all. So yes, let us use that example again. Shield hurt Hulk, fist does not hurt Hulk. There you go. Not PIS at all.
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jun 3, 2011 14:54:34 GMT -5
I can not provide the context for these but i think Vance or Morph would. I could ask them and come later to give it. I'm not sure i got your point. I know how fast Steve's and Logan's reaction time is( Steve has stated that he can see faster ). But i really don't see your point here. I was just saying that Logan and Steve are not fast enough to move at 700mph( basically outrun a bullet ). As for predicting where the bullet would be, i don't see the same applying with Elektra. The instance i recall were that she was deflecting multiple shots while she was being in the air. If she did not have the reaction that is needed, i don't see how prediction would help her deflect multiple bullets/ shots. And i have already told you that i was not talking about an actual fight that happened in comics. I was just saying an example that i made.
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 3, 2011 14:58:52 GMT -5
I never said one needs to outrun a bullet in order to block it. You are lost. I said reaction speed and that is very true.
So if you are in the air, you cannot judge where a bullet will be?
Your example that you made up is based on nothing though. Why would I even bother to engage that when it is based on such?
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jun 3, 2011 15:06:48 GMT -5
I think we are on a complete misunderstanding about the bullet timing thing. First i did not state that you have to outrun a bullet in order to block it. You have stated that peak humans are not able to move at 700 mps and i don't even know the reason that you did it since it had nothing to do with reaction timing. I don't say that being in the air you can not predict where the bullet would be. I was just explaining the instance, nothing more. What i said, is that it will be hard to predict where multiple shots would be without having the reaction time to block all of them. Why you should not bother? It's just an example of having a logical showing and a stupid one. And my question was that bother were PIS or none?
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 3, 2011 15:11:51 GMT -5
Steve Rogers' human attacks do not injure Hulk. The shield does.
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Post by Morpheus on Jun 3, 2011 15:12:33 GMT -5
Give me a second guys, I'll upload the DD limo flipping feat for you.
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Post by Morpheus on Jun 3, 2011 15:15:25 GMT -5
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jun 3, 2011 15:18:11 GMT -5
Erik-El:...... I was just explaining my example. I know that Steve can not hurt him with his fists, but if we have an occasion where the writer makes him able to hurt him with both his fists and the shield. Will i call the whole fight PIS, because i can not chose which parts makes and which does not? @morph: Thanks morph but we can not see the scans...
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Post by Morpheus on Jun 3, 2011 15:19:44 GMT -5
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jun 3, 2011 15:24:30 GMT -5
Now they work..... -_________-
Thanks btw. These are really helpful. And it seems i was wrong. It was not in motion when DD has flipped it but it was in a traffic...lol
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Post by Morpheus on Jun 3, 2011 15:25:57 GMT -5
Nah, it was simply parked.
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jun 3, 2011 15:29:12 GMT -5
Ah, i see. My mistake. Well, even better anyway.
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 3, 2011 15:29:49 GMT -5
Erik-El:...... I was just explaining my example. I know that Steve can not hurt him with his fists, but if we have an occasion where the writer makes him able to hurt him with both his fists and the shield. Will i call the whole fight PIS, because i can not chose which parts makes and which does not? .............................. Do you understand that your "example" is completely incomparable to the DD feat right? Everything about the barbell is sloppy writing. Steve hurting Hulk with the shield is not. Nothing else matters because nothing else is ever implied to be able to happen.
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