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Post by Morpheus on Oct 15, 2011 6:16:22 GMT -5
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creator
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Post by creator on Oct 15, 2011 10:41:09 GMT -5
Which is why I said usually and gave an example with laser or particle beam weaponry, both of which are considerably faster than asteroids.
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Post by ckal on Oct 15, 2011 12:00:33 GMT -5
ckal: That is nothing compared to what Storm has shown. creator- That's got nothing to do with it. The fact that SS can move that fast and stop and turn on a dime is the point.
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creator
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Post by creator on Oct 15, 2011 21:32:30 GMT -5
creator- That's got nothing to do with it. The fact that SS can move that fast and stop and turn on a dime is the point. I beg to differ. If you look closer at these particular scans, the paths of the asteroids are somewhat random and they do collide but they do not appear to have a high velocity (and this is relative as it could still be hundred to thousands mph). However for a being with senses like the surfer who tracks the trajectory of cosmic dust motes, tracking the paths of movement of large asteroids is a picnic. It sure helps to be able to move so freely as he can but I'm keeping his feats in perspective. The feat proof puts him where it will.
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creator
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Post by creator on Oct 16, 2011 5:29:52 GMT -5
I have almost got my scans organised for superman. Hopefully have them finished soon.
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Painkiller
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Post by Painkiller on Oct 16, 2011 6:03:14 GMT -5
Should Superman be an 19?
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creator
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Post by creator on Oct 16, 2011 7:02:02 GMT -5
Should Superman be an 19? Reason ?
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creator
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Post by creator on Oct 16, 2011 16:35:36 GMT -5
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 16, 2011 16:38:58 GMT -5
creator: I could have sworn there was a reading feat of his where he was reading volumes of textbooks printed on microdots in some novel at the speed a regular person would read the said novel.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 16, 2011 21:36:58 GMT -5
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Painkiller
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?I?m sorry, did I ruin your concentration??
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Post by Painkiller on Oct 16, 2011 23:31:59 GMT -5
How can she even touch Flash?
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Silver
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The Fourth Precept
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Post by Silver on Oct 16, 2011 23:39:06 GMT -5
How can she even touch Flash? Because the entire JLA, minus Batman, was holding back on her.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 17, 2011 0:05:10 GMT -5
How can she even touch Flash? Because the entire JLA, minus Batman, was holding back on her. True but that is not the case in the Cheetah vs Flash fight, nor was Zoom holding back on WW.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 17, 2011 0:20:30 GMT -5
How can she even touch Flash? Because the entire JLA, minus Batman, was holding back on her. Thy were however "testing" her because of her blindness. You can hold back without throwing (touch football) and when your testing a team mate who's reactions you rely on to ensure you walk out of a battle alive that's the type of "holding back" you do. With Flash's speed and reflex if he considered her even getting close he could have still gone faster to avoid. How would it have been a reliable test otherwise.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 0:35:00 GMT -5
True but that is not the case in the Cheetah vs Flash fight, nor was Zoom holding back on WW. Cheetah was able to attack Flash by catching him off-guard. She crashed through a wall to strike him; she never appeared in his line of sight where he could actually process her attack and then respond. That was how she had the advantage initially. As for Zoom...yes, he was. The fact that he slowed down enough for her to even sense him is proof of that. If he wanted to, he could have just continued to punch her around the world until she fell unconscious, but instead, he tried to agitate her by beating up other Amizons. He let her win. Thy were however "testing" her because of her blindness. You can hold back without throwing (touch football) and when your testing a team mate who's reactions you rely on to ensure you walk out of a battle alive that's the type of "holding back" you do. With Flash's speed and reflex if he considered her even getting close he could have still gone faster to avoid. How would it have been a reliable test otherwise. This is assuming they were performing that way. Batman is the only one who evidently took her seriously, while the others restrained themselves because of her blindness. The idea that it was a reliable test is automatically in question by the simple fact that they held back.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 0:54:48 GMT -5
And for the record, something was clearly wrong in the writing of that comic if Wonder Woman could supposedly react to Flash but not Batman.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 17, 2011 1:15:00 GMT -5
True but that is not the case in the Cheetah vs Flash fight, nor was Zoom holding back on WW. Cheetah was able to attack Flash by catching him off-guard. She crashed through a wall to strike him; she never appeared in his line of sight where he could actually process her attack and then respond. That was how she had the advantage initially. As for Zoom...yes, he was. The fact that he slowed down enough for her to even sense him is proof of that. If he wanted to, he could have just continued to punch her around the world until she fell unconscious, but instead, he tried to agitate her by beating up other Amizons. He let her win. Thy were however "testing" her because of her blindness. You can hold back without throwing (touch football) and when your testing a team mate who's reactions you rely on to ensure you walk out of a battle alive that's the type of "holding back" you do. With Flash's speed and reflex if he considered her even getting close he could have still gone faster to avoid. How would it have been a reliable test otherwise. This is assuming they were performing that way. Batman is the only one who evidently took her seriously, while the others restrained themselves because of her blindness. The idea that it was a reliable test is automatically in question by the simple fact that they held back. You've got to be kiddng me. Zoom let them know he was there before they appeared by speaking, Wonder Woman had time to talk to Flash of their presence before she cam through the wall, are you seriously saying that wally's reaction is that piss poor Maybe I should lower my estimation of him to be below Diana (which I wont) . He's reacted to bullets fired at point blank, that is a complete and utter cop out. Not to mention that after that "surprise attack" he fought her for 4 more pages where he could see her getting his @$$ handed to him.It however isn't in question when in one of the other scans she could react to Jesse Quick, who at the time was IN the speed force (the very thing that made Flash his level). Jesse at the time wasn't holding back, in fact she was blood lusted trying to avenge her fathers death.Being able to react to Doom at all was a feat, a feat Wally struggles with. He couldn't do it in that scenario. It's also not in question when she reacted to a BLOOD LUSTED (not holding back there) Superman. She's done that a few times. Once when he was controlled by Darkseid, and once when he was under Max Lords sway. Yes she said it was difficult in the latter but she still dodged quite a few blows. Might I remind everyone, that her power of speed comes from Hermes. Hermes who in war of the God's (pre Wally's speed force upgrade that allows him to speed steel just to give full context) can do this to wally www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/flash_v2_55pg06/105-2046784/www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/flash_v2_55pg07/105-2046785/www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/flash_v2_55pg08/105-2046786/This is another reason why I rank Cap Marvel below her since his speed comes from Mercury. Who Hermes easily bested in War of the God's and later in WW referred to him as a "pretender. I have an issue somewhere where Diana has a good show reacting to Hermes that puts it into context. Considering I'm suggesting WW is a 27 while Wally and Barry 28/9 black racer 29 and Zoom 30 and using these scans to support my case I don't see the issue. A couple of pages ago Creator asked me if I was basing the ranks on feats. Just wanted to show i was. If you think that these feats don't justify Diana being 1 or 2 below Flash and 3 below Zoom, I'd love to hear why. Because if their reactions are as poor as your suggesting i actually think I've overrated them.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 1:28:38 GMT -5
You've got to be kiddng me. Zoom let them know he was there before they appeared by speaking, Wonder Woman had time to talk to Flash of their presence before she cam through the wall, are you seriously saying that wally's reaction is that piss poor Maybe I should lower my estimation of him to be below Diana (which I wont) . He's reacted to bullets fired at point blank, that is a complete and utter cop out. Not to mention that after that "surprise attack he fought her for 4 pages getting his @$$ handed to him. His hearing Zoom does not allow him to see Cheetah through a wall, who came out behind him. And he never really fought her afterwards either. She just pinned him after her first attack until he stole her speed. It however isn't in question when in one of the other scans she could react to Jesse Quick, who at the time was IN the speed force (the very thing that made Flash his level). Jesse at the time wasn't holding back, in fact she was blood lusted trying to avenge her fathers death. She never reacted to Jesse. She ran behind her and threw her lasso at her. If Diana was standing stationary and Jesse ran past and then Diana threw her lasso which landed around Jesse, that would be reacting to Jesse Quick. But that is not what she did. She kept pace with her when Jesse was running in a straight line. Not much of a reaction feat, just a travel one. Being able to react to Doom at all was a feat, a feat Wally struggles with. He couldn't do it in that scenario. Not sure who you were referring to here. It's also not in question when she reacted to a BLOOD LUSTED (not holding back there) Superman. She's done that a few times. Once when he was controlled by Darkseid, and once when he was under Max Lords sway. Yes she said it was difficult in the latter but she still dodged quite a few blows. She can dodge his blows, sure. No one is disputing that. But Superman has blitzed Wonder Woman quite a few times, such as when Lord was controlling him and when Circe transformed him. Wasn't Wally supersonic at the time? Also, as you said, pre-upgrade Flash. Not the same. It certainly is impressive on his part, but that would be about it. Considering I'm suggesting WW is a 27 while Wally and Barry 28/9 black racer 29 and Zoom 30 and using these scans to support my case I don't see the issue. A couple of pages ago Creator asked me if I was basing the ranks on feats. Just wanted to show i was. If you think that these feats don't justify Diana being 1 or 2 below Flash and 3 below Zoom, I'd love to hear why. Because if their reactions are as poor as your suggesting i actually think I've overrated them. I never suggested their reactions were poor at all. All of Flash's high end feats supersede Diana's by a mile. Placing her that close to them is being incredibly generous.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 17, 2011 1:49:09 GMT -5
Cheetah got off Flash first panel page 12. he moved quick and she struck him again, then Again. She wasn't back on him until the end of page 13. So she never pinned him until he stole her speed at all.
Sorry typo Zoom
Wally was just getting back up to light speed at that time (I had thought it was still the supersonic era until recently too until i reread some old issues). Pre the upgrade Diana regular kept up with Flash. The difference is speed force only (which since Diana has entered/touched as well could be questionable , but I'm not going there)
Two whole ranks, do you even know how big a difference that is. On the strength grid one rank separates Superboy Prime from Superman and Black Adam. The difference between rank 27 and 29 on this speed reaction grid is saying that 29 is 10 times greater than 27. it s 100,00,000 times the reaction of a normal person for 27 and 1000,000,000 for 29. If WW has even a few feats that place her able to react on occasion to Flash etc That is not too close.
Sorry left of some zeroes on the X 100 million to 1 billion
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 2:00:04 GMT -5
Cheetah got off Flash first panel page 12. he moved quick and she struck him again, then Again. She wasn't back on him until the end of page 13. So she never pinned him until he stole her speed at all. I may need to reread it (the last time I touched that issue was to develop scans for Zoom, and that was a long time ago), but when Cheetah attacked him again, I seem to remember him looking away from her and grabbing his neck because it was bleeding or something along those lines. Honestly though, I fail to see what Cheetah has to do with this. One way or another, she is not faster than Flash, and that would not extend to Wonder Woman anyway. So do we now discount all of Flash's reaction feats when he's running at speed. I really am unsure what this conclusion pertains to or how it bears relevance in the discussion. Could you clarify? Oh. I thought you might have meant Doomsday. Reacting to Zoom when he wants you to win the fight to make you "better" is not a much of a feat. Saying that this is a feat Flash struggles with is a flawed comparison. Zoom moves considerably faster against Flash because Flash is considerably faster than Wonder Woman. In battles against Flash, Zoom has run across continents and returned before Flash even realized he left. He moves too fast for Flash to see at other times. There is not much comparison that can be made. Besides that, Wonder Woman said that Zoom was moving at light speed when he punched her. Now whether or not she can accurately appropriate his speed is debatable, I guess, but if she is correct, she failed to react to him at all when he punched her. She only "reacted" to him when he thought she would pose no threat because of her blindness and when he allowed her to win. Wally was just getting back up to light speed at that time (I had thought it was still the supersonic era until recently too until i reread some old issues). Pre the upgrade Diana regular kept up with Flash. The difference is speed force only (which since Diana has entered/touched as well could be questionable , but I'm not going there) Alright, but how he operated against Flash is not altogether indicative of how Wonder Woman would. She has never been able to manhandle Flash that way unless he was holding back. Two whole ranks, do you even know how big a difference that is. On the strength grid one rank separates Superboy Prime from Superman and Black Adam. The difference between rank 27 and 29 on this speed reaction grid is saying that 29 is 10 times greater than 27. it s 100,00,000 times the reaction of a normal person for 27 and 1000,000,000 for 29. If WW has even a few feats that place her able to react on occasion to Flash etc That is not too close. Sorry left of some zeroes on the X 100 million to 1 billion My mistake. I thought it was one rank.
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