Power Grid: Mental Manipulation

[Beatboks]

Nov 7, 2012 16:47:26 GMT -5 @jakefury said:

Nov 7, 2012 8:44:35 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

Brainwave Jr
Telepathic body control
Animal & Human +2
5000+ +6
1000 miles (52 the area of Kandaq) +8
Extreme extent ( controlled two armies to slay each other (even knowing they’d die too)) +7
total 23

JSA Black Reign?

Yeah, Sorry.that story ark in part is why I think BW Jnr should be a few higher in terms of TP. In that ark he was easily able to bypass the mystical protection BA's mind has courtesy of the god Mehen. His father was able to TP push the Spectre into leaving In ASS 20. Martian Manhunter could likewise scan the Spectre when hal was Host. Both are high end feats IMO. IMO both MM and BW Snr would be close in TP level as a result. We know that MM needed to push to breach the resistance Mehen gives BA in WWIII (and then suffered because of the dark thoughts BA has - BW Jnr being protected from that by his insanity). BW didn't seem to struggle at all in Black Reign.

Based on feats prior to that point I would have classed them all close but that combined with BW Jnr easily dominating Maxima in TP battle on the Astral plane (where she is normally dominant) in Extreme Justice I would put Hnak a few levels higher than his father and just above MM and Maxima( or at the high end of the same rank). The adders as they stand don't quite reflect that.

creator should we add an adder for the type of mind a TPer can breach ( as in protected / how easily) or the ease with which they do. After all the reason for Hank's insanity is basically that unlike other TPers he actually has 1000's of minds running through his at once. he literally hasn't a filter because of the level of his power after he and his fathers merger.

[jakefury]

@beatboks:

I love that arc.

[creator]

Nov 7, 2012 21:07:47 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

creator should we add an adder for the type of mind a TPer can breach ( as in protected / how easily) or the ease with which they do. After all the reason for Hank's insanity is basically that unlike other TPers he actually has 1000's of minds running through his at once. he literally hasn't a filter because of the level of his power after he and his fathers merger.

I think that should come under psychic combat and specifically psychic attacks which deals with piercing mental shields.

[CitizenBane]

Lemme give this a shot.

Martian Manhunter's telepathy:

Read/transmit thoughts + emotions: +4

Types of minds (animal, human, machine, alien) +4

Number of minds (5000+) +6

Range of communication (all over the Milky Way, which is 100,000 light years in diameter) +10

Other dimensions +1

Total: 25

Tell me if I screwed up somewhere.

[creator]

Nov 8, 2012 5:58:33 GMT -5 CitizenBane said:

Lemme give this a shot.

Martian Manhunter's telepathy:

Read/transmit thoughts + emotions: +4

Types of minds (animal, human, machine, alien) +4

Number of minds (5000+) +6

Range of communication (all over the Milky Way, which is 100,000 light years in diameter) +10

Other dimensions +1

Total: 25

Tell me if I screwed up somewhere.

I didn't know he could communicate with machine type minds.
According to your info, you would need to make the range +11 to cover 100,000 light years.

[CitizenBane]

Nov 8, 2012 9:26:44 GMT -5 creator said:

Nov 8, 2012 5:58:33 GMT -5 CitizenBane said:

Lemme give this a shot.

Martian Manhunter's telepathy:

Read/transmit thoughts + emotions: +4

Types of minds (animal, human, machine, alien) +4

Number of minds (5000+) +6

Range of communication (all over the Milky Way, which is 100,000 light years in diameter) +10

Other dimensions +1

Total: 25

Tell me if I screwed up somewhere.

I didn't know he could communicate with machine type minds.
According to your info, you would need to make the range +11 to cover 100,000 light years.

I posted a scan on the first page where he acquires information from Superman's rocket via a mental probe. He also once merged his body with a spaceship and mentally controlled its weapon systems to shoot some other spaceships.

+11 is 170,000 light years, isn't it?

[creator]

Nov 8, 2012 13:02:40 GMT -5 CitizenBane said:

I posted a scan on the first page where he acquires information from Superman's rocket via a mental probe. He also once merged his body with a spaceship and mentally controlled its weapon systems to shoot some other spaceships.

+11 is 170,000 light years, isn't it?

Sorry, I missed that scan. In that case he can indeed communicate with machine minds.
Yes +11 is up to 170,000 light years (170 kilo light years).
+10 is only up to 170 light years.

[Beatboks]

Nov 8, 2012 5:58:33 GMT -5 CitizenBane said:

Lemme give this a shot.

Martian Manhunter's telepathy:

Read/transmit thoughts + emotions: +4

Types of minds (animal, human, machine, alien) +4

Number of minds (5000+) +6

Range of communication (all over the Milky Way, which is 100,000 light years in diameter) +10

Other dimensions +1

Total: 25

Tell me if I screwed up somewhere.

This is why I have a problem with the lack of an adder for how a TPer can read protected minds in the TP ranking.

I accept that MM is above Brainwave Jnr as a TP because he has a known range advantage, but I can't see how he's 5 whole ranks higher. Two maybe but not 5. I meant thus far BW has never been off planet or scanned people from off planet only on a planetary scale. Howeer he has been able to read minds that should be protected from his ability. Not per se as a mental attack but purely as a mind reading thing. The Maxima feat of course would be mental battle but the reading of BA with ease really isn't. I don't think that MM is aver ranked but based purely on the adders as they stand I think BW Jnr falls a little short of where he should be. His scan of the planet in Millenium was a very casual event, it was like nothing to him. Plus it's been stated repeatedly that he has hundreds of minds open to him at any point in time.

[creator]

Nov 8, 2012 20:18:54 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

This is why I have a problem with the lack of an adder for how a TPer can read protected minds in the TP ranking.

I accept that MM is above Brainwave Jnr as a TP because he has a known range advantage, but I can't see how he's 5 whole ranks higher. Two maybe but not 5. I meant thus far BW has never been off planet or scanned people from off planet only on a planetary scale. Howeer he has been able to read minds that should be protected from his ability. Not per se as a mental attack but purely as a mind reading thing. The Maxima feat of course would be mental battle but the reading of BA with ease really isn't. I don't think that MM is aver ranked but based purely on the adders as they stand I think BW Jnr falls a little short of where he should be. His scan of the planet in Millenium was a very casual event, it was like nothing to him. Plus it's been stated repeatedly that he has hundreds of minds open to him at any point in time.

Telepathy at its most level is simply transmitting and receiving thoughts.
Although a character might not appear to be using a mental attack, it is his mental might, that allows him to simply push through the opponents will in some cases.
In this case, I decided to separate the characters will-force/attacks from basic telepathy, as they represent different aspects of mental powers. Some characters might have the ability to broadcast thoughts over a long distance but may have little or no ability to push the thoughts past a strong willed or defended mind.
We rank characters on the feats they have displayed so when BW goes off planet or broadcasts over greater distances we can rerank him then.
In this example, although MM may have greater telepathy, BW may display a greater psychic combat rank.

[Erik-El]

I think the list is fine personally. While some characters might be only +2 in raw power than others, they might have additional feats that give them additional adders that boost them even more. Being almost as powerful as someone is great in an all out mental slug-fest but once that character with slightly more power and a wide variety of mental ability digs into his bag of tricks, there really is no chance for the character with almost as much power but no variety. So why not have the former +5?

[Beatboks]

Brainwave Jnr Psychic combat
type of ,minds +3 ( animal, human, Alien- was Alien always there because if so I’ve missed that)
number of minds +4
mental shield +4
across dimension +1
Strength of shields +5 shielded against Ultra Humanite, Maxima in astral plane(while psionically attacking other members of Extreme Justice),
Psychic attacks + 6
Total 23

As far as memory alteration goes the only instance I can recall was Fury shortly after COIE when she still remembered her pre COIE mother and father.

[creator]

Nov 10, 2012 0:13:18 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

Brainwave Jnr Psychic combat
type of ,minds +3 ( animal, human, Alien- was Alien always there because if so I’ve missed that)
number of minds +4
mental shield +4
across dimension +1
Strength of shields +5 shielded against Ultra Humanite, Maxima in astral plane(while psionically attacking other members of Extreme Justice),
Psychic attacks + 6
Total 23

As far as memory alteration goes the only instance I can recall was Fury shortly after COIE when she still remembered her pre COIE mother and father.

Ok, so we should now score Maxima, Ultrahumanite and Martian Manhunter for Psychic combat to see how this plays out.

[CitizenBane]

Alrighty then.......

Martian Manhunter : Psychic Combat (coming soon to a theater near you!)

Types of minds: Animal because of Grodd; Alien because of Maxima, the Star Conquerors, Starbreaker, assorted Martians and several others; Human because of several; Machine because of Mageddon and the En'Tarans.
Total: +4

Number of minds: +4
Mental shields: +4 (shielding the JLA from the Hyperclan while they were being chased around the world is the best I can think of)
Across dimensions: +0

Mental shields: His shields blocked the En'Tarans (who psionically controlled the League and the entire planet of Rann), the combined efforts of nine White Martians who could exert telepathic influence over light years, and protected Aquaman from a Star Conqueror that could put everyone in North America to sleep. He also shielded Batman from Mageddon and Zatanna and Gypsy from Adam when he had the power of the Godhead.
+6? Tell me if I'm ranking this one too high.

Psychic attacks: Hal Jordan's Spectre was a planetary-level telepath and his mental shields were sufficient to completely block Stigmonus, who was drawing on the psychic power of the universe itself. J'onn entered his mind and pulled him onto the astral plane against his will. Based on that high-end feat alone, this is +6.
Additionally, he's also easily dominated people like Maxima, Grodd and Malefic in psi-battle.

FINAL TOTAL: 24 (although it might be 23 if I am overrating the shield strength)

[Beatboks]

Maxima Psychic combat
Type of mind +4 (IIRC her TP worked on Brainiac in Panic in the sky, unless someone can point out otherwise IIRC he was an android in that ark)
Number of Minds +3 (can anyone recall a plus 500 feat, I can't)
Mental Shields +5 ( I recall her shielding all Almeracians somewhere, galactica highway ??)
across dimension +1 let's face it she normally rules in astral plane
Shields + 5
attacks +5
total 23

Ultra Humanite psychic combat
Types of minds +4 ( his mental assaults have affected Red Tornado, aliens and animals, example his ape body copies)
Number of minds +2 (the only time I can recall him affecting more than 50 minds was when he used his technology and implants to weaken many in JSA when he took over Johnny Thunders body.
shields +4
across dimension +1 ( from Limbo and also across time)
shields + 4
psychic attacks +4 Unlike Maxima and BW Jnr he lacks the PSi blasts that assault nervous system but has their other attacks. He's never breached minds as shielded as they have.
total 19

Brainwave Snr
types of minds +3
number of minds +3 (might be plus four his though images have killed in multiple places at once affecting many minds plus he's assaulted the entire ASS and when he created dissasters all over earth in All Star 58 made many feel the ravages of them
mental shield area +6 ( Fate couldn't sense him in his early appearances so across country)
across dimension +1
strength of shields +4
strength of attacks +5 ( also lack PSI blasts but has PSi battled fate and other highly strong telepaths successfully

total 22

I'm probably not the best one to rate MM. I'll leave that to Silver or bane

[Beatboks]

Nov 10, 2012 1:16:53 GMT -5 CitizenBane said:

Alrighty then.......

Martian Manhunter : Psychic Combat (coming soon to a theater near you!)



Psychic attacks: Hal Jordan's Spectre was a planetary-level telepath and his mental shields were sufficient to completely block Stigmonus, who was drawing on the psychic power of the universe itself. J'onn entered his mind and pulled him onto the astral plane against his will. Based on that high-end feat alone, this is +6.
Additionally, he's also easily dominated people like Maxima, Grodd and Malefic in psi-battle.

Not Sure I'd rate that as a 6 to be honest. Brainwave Snr has literally mentally controlled the Corrigan Spectre ( who on feats was above Hal)while implanting suggestions in the rest of the JSA. he has TP Battled Dr Fate (classic) while also taking on the rest of the JSA with his will constructs and TK so at least partially diverted. He's dominated Grodd and matched Ultra who has matched Grodd, MM and others (eventually employing his impants for the complete victory. He was powered up here but also still fighting to control his new host)

Brainwave Jnr has also easily bested several high end TPers (while frankly not firing on all cylinders he was insane), and successfully breached minds that MM could not.

Ultras has dominated the wills of characters with established mental protection of durability across dimensions and time.

non of these IMO would be a 6, I would say that would be reserved solely for Despero with the fire TBH.

[CitizenBane]

Nov 10, 2012 1:35:02 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

Nov 10, 2012 1:16:53 GMT -5 CitizenBane said:

Alrighty then.......

Martian Manhunter : Psychic Combat (coming soon to a theater near you!)



Psychic attacks: Hal Jordan's Spectre was a planetary-level telepath and his mental shields were sufficient to completely block Stigmonus, who was drawing on the psychic power of the universe itself. J'onn entered his mind and pulled him onto the astral plane against his will. Based on that high-end feat alone, this is +6.
Additionally, he's also easily dominated people like Maxima, Grodd and Malefic in psi-battle.

Not Sure I'd rate that as a 6 to be honest. Brainwave Snr has literally mentally controlled the Corrigan Spectre ( who on feats was above Hal)while implanting suggestions in the rest of the JSA. he has TP Battled Dr Fate (classic) while also taking on the rest of the JSA with his will constructs and TK so at least partially diverted. He's dominated Grodd and matched Ultra who has matched Grodd, MM and others (eventually employing his impants for the complete victory. He was powered up here but also still fighting to control his new host)

Brainwave Jnr has also easily bested several high end TPers (while frankly not firing on all cylinders he was insane), and successfully breached minds that MM could not.

Ultras has dominated the wills of characters with established mental protection of durability across dimensions and time.

non of these IMO would be a 6, I would say that would be reserved solely for Despero with the fire TBH.

Alright. The total for MM would still be the same though since I didn't consider the astral plane for the "across dimensions" category, so there's a +1 there.

Also, Brainiac was in his Milton Fine body during Panic in the Sky.

[Beatboks]

Nov 10, 2012 2:31:14 GMT -5 CitizenBane said:

Nov 10, 2012 1:35:02 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

Not Sure I'd rate that as a 6 to be honest. Brainwave Snr has literally mentally controlled the Corrigan Spectre ( who on feats was above Hal)while implanting suggestions in the rest of the JSA. he has TP Battled Dr Fate (classic) while also taking on the rest of the JSA with his will constructs and TK so at least partially diverted. He's dominated Grodd and matched Ultra who has matched Grodd, MM and others (eventually employing his impants for the complete victory. He was powered up here but also still fighting to control his new host)

Brainwave Jnr has also easily bested several high end TPers (while frankly not firing on all cylinders he was insane), and successfully breached minds that MM could not.

Ultras has dominated the wills of characters with established mental protection of durability across dimensions and time.

non of these IMO would be a 6, I would say that would be reserved solely for Despero with the fire TBH.

Alright. The total for MM would still be the same though since I didn't consider the astral plane for the "across dimensions" category, so there's a +1 there.

Also, Brainiac was in his Milton Fine body during Panic in the Sky.

I thought he had.
I have no problem with MM being 24. Him being 1 above BWJr sounds about right. Obviously the difference (as quoted by Maxima - who is clearly now a 22) is the sheer power of his assault, and the lower level of his shields. Sort of makes sense when you think about it since he can't filter out minds the way other TPers can, hence why he always has others minds flowing through his and the reason why he cracked and went insane. His ability to shield himself isn't enough to cope with his sheer output.

[Beatboks]

Dark Nebula
Telepathy
Type ( thoughts and emotions read & Send) +4
Type of minds +4 He’s read animals, humans and alien. Not sure if trees and foliage count as vegetable but he had one feat of getting readings from plants
Number of minds +4 ( no feat I can recall at 5000)
Range +8 – he sensed the crew of an alien space craft as it entered our solar system
Total 20

[creator]

I think to help ourselves we should put a couple of names from both Marvel and DC at each of the 7 levels for Psychic Attacks and Strength of Mental Shield adders. This will help us then to decide who goes at which level in the future. Sounds easy but first we need to decide on these levels.
For instance Galactus might be level 7 in both. Prof X might be a 4 or 5 in both. Watcher might be a 6 in both. The Stranger might be a 6 in both.

So lets agree on 2 examples for each level (1 to 7) for both Psychic Attacks and Strength of Mental Shield adders and lets do 2 examples for both Marvel and DC if we can.

[Beatboks]

This is my opinion. but some others may need weigh in

Attacks
1
2
3 Kole
4 Milton Fine Brainiac
5 MM, Xavier, Brainwave Jnr, Emma Frost ?
6 Despero , Thanos,
7 Phoenix Jean


shield
1.
2.
3.Milton fine Brainiac, Kole
4. Maxima (reassessed from my earlier ranking since I don't believe she ranks with v v)
5.Brainwave Jnr, MM, Xavier
6.Thanos, Despero, Brainwave Snr,
7.