Jason Todd vs Moon Knight

[Dane]

Jason Todd vs Moon Knight

Location: Central Park after dark. (empty)

Equipment:
Jason has his Red Hood costume, an AK-47, Batarangs and 1 Frag Grenade.
Moon Knight has his current Carbonadium armor (without jet boots), Crescent Darts, Dual Cresecent Dart Pistols and Katana.

Rules: Both are current (no Moon Powers for MK). Morals are on. Elimination by all standard means.

[Admin]

o la la.

[Admin]

Honestly, I think Moon Knight takes this. I'll gladly explain why/debate if anyone would like to.

[Dane]

Sure, I'll take J-Todd if no one else will.

[Admin]

Jan 7, 2011 19:08:25 GMT -5 Dane said:

Sure, I'll take J-Todd if no one else will.

Would you like to kick this off?

[Dane]

Jan 7, 2011 19:09:05 GMT -5 Admin said:

Jan 7, 2011 19:08:25 GMT -5 Dane said:

Sure, I'll take J-Todd if no one else will.

Would you like to kick this off?

Sure, well I would say most of MK's high end feats came when he had superhuman attributes. We just haven't seen that level of performance come out of him in more recent runs.

J-Todd on the other hand just kind of sticks it to everyone he comes across. He's had very tight contests with Nightwing and Batman and overall shown what those kinds of skills can do in the hands of someone who just doesn't give a shit.

I think his adaptability can overcome MK's carbonadium suit and that frag grenade could be a game changer if used correctly. More than that I think he is more stealthy and a more skilled acrobat. He could get an advantage in positioning and possibly detect MK before he is detected himself. Central Park after dark could be a game of hide and seek for these two.

[Power NeXus]

I'm backing Jason here, but I don't know enough about him to get really involved in the debate.

[Admin]

Sure, well I would say most of MK's high end feats came when he had superhuman attributes. We just haven't seen that level of performance come out of him in more recent runs.

I disagree, good sir. He didn't have powers during a good amount of his showings in Marc Spector: Moon Knight, or more recently during his good display of hand-to-hand knowledge and accuracy in Moon Knight #10 (or at least I believe it's #10). Civil War was a dark era for him, which is where his "hit me and I'll hit you back twice as hard" tactics and stereotype came from. That style was also limited to that time period, and we saw him displaying his skill again later on (against the Thunderbolts, in Mexico, etc). I'm torn on who is more skilled between the two in unarmed combat, to be honest. Todd had an excellent showing against Wayne, but it required his weapons to really even the odds. Not like that's a bad thing, though, since Wayne is on an impressive level of skill.

He's had very tight contests with Nightwing and Batman and overall shown what those kinds of skills can do in the hands of someone who just doesn't give a shit.

Indeed, but as much as I hate to admit it, Grayson holds back against him. This was even admitted during BoTC when he kicked Todd, knocking him off the train. When given a full arsenal of tools at his disposal, he's one hell of a combatant. But here, I think he has enough to give Moon Knight one hell of a fight, but not take the majority (elaborated on below). The AK-47 is an impressive gun, but we've seen the likes of Ollie and other humans dodge gunfire from Todd numerous times. Meanwhile, we've seen Moon Knight capable of dodging multiple gunmen at once, as well as Frank Castle (who wasn't holding back since MK was in his armor). Once it gets into close range, Moon Knight sporting a katana (and his skill with it, as seen in his classic fight vs a skilled swordsman. I REFUSE to cite VS Deadpool. REFUSE THAT BS) gives him an edge in close range combat, IMHO. Easier way to inflict cutting/stabbing damage, and superior range than using a batarang.

I think his adaptability can overcome MK's carbonadium suit

This is a massive factor, IMO. The armor certainly doesn't make him invincible, but it will allow him to survive and overcome otherwise fatal wounds (being tagged by the grenade, multiple AK-47 rounds to the chest). After all, we saw the amount of explosives Moon Knight withstood in his last fight with Bushman, and that was obviously well over the explosive force behind a single grenade (they were entire boxes of explosives).

and that frag grenade could be a game changer if used correctly.

I concur it's a factor, and can help Todd gain an edge, but I also believe Moon Knight can recover from such due to the above reasoning.

More than that I think he is more stealthy and a more skilled acrobat.

I concur, but not by a significant enough means to warrant a large advantage. Moon Knight has had some impressive agility displays (VS Hobgoblin, for example) and has used stealth well countless times.

He could get an advantage in positioning and possibly detect MK before he is detected himself. Central Park after dark could be a game of hide and seek for these two.

Indeed, but Moon Knight's massive durability advantage will allow him to more than likely survive an incident where Todd gets a range advantage first, IMHO.

[Dane]

I disagree, good sir. He didn't have powers during a good amount of his showings in Marc Spector: Moon Knight, or more recently during his good display of hand-to-hand knowledge and accuracy in Moon Knight #10 (or at least I believe it's #10). Civil War was a dark era for him, which is where his "hit me and I'll hit you back twice as hard" tactics and stereotype came from. That style was also limited to that time period, and we saw him displaying his skill again later on (against the Thunderbolts, in Mexico, etc). I'm torn on who is more skilled between the two in unarmed combat, to be honest. Todd had an excellent showing against Wayne, but it required his weapons to really even the odds. Not like that's a bad thing, though, since Wayne is on an impressive level of skill.

It'd be tight, don't get me wrong. I just think Jason has shown more consistent overall skill in his appearances.

Indeed, but as much as I hate to admit it, Grayson holds back against him. This was even admitted during BoTC when he kicked Todd, knocking him off the train. When given a full arsenal of tools at his disposal, he's one hell of a combatant. But here, I think he has enough to give Moon Knight one hell of a fight, but not take the majority (elaborated on below). The AK-47 is an impressive gun, but we've seen the likes of Ollie and other humans dodge gunfire from Todd numerous times. Meanwhile, we've seen Moon Knight capable of dodging multiple gunmen at once, as well as Frank Castle (who wasn't holding back since MK was in his armor). Once it gets into close range, Moon Knight sporting a katana (and his skill with it, as seen in his classic fight vs a skilled swordsman. I REFUSE to cite VS Deadpool. REFUSE THAT BS) gives him an edge in close range combat, IMHO. Easier way to inflict cutting/stabbing damage, and superior range than using a batarang.

Grayson maybe. But Bruce Wayne thought it was an impostor pretending to be Jason and he was pissed off. No holding back there. Grayson is also a little hard to gauge at times. One minute he's struggling against Jason Todd, the next he beats Deathstroke's ass inside out? weird.

This is a massive factor, IMO. The armor certainly doesn't make him invincible, but it will allow him to survive and overcome otherwise fatal wounds (being tagged by the grenade, multiple AK-47 rounds to the chest). After all, we saw the amount of explosives Moon Knight withstood in his last fight with Bushman, and that was obviously well over the explosive force behind a single grenade (they were entire boxes of explosives).

Very true but Jason is much more skilled and precise than Bushman. He is much more likely to spot weaknesses in the armor and exploit them.

I concur it's a factor, and can help Todd gain an edge, but I also believe Moon Knight can recover from such due to the above reasoning.

I think so, but the question is; will Jason give him that time to recover?

If he opens with it, it won't do much damage but it'll certainly put a ringing through Marc's ears and give Todd the opening he needs to take him down h2h. At the very least he'll know how durable MK's armor is afterward. If he opens with a spread of AK-47 fire then he would already know before using the grenade. Might make it interesting if he sets a booby trap to explode it over his exposed head.

I concur, but not by a significant enough means to warrant a large advantage. Moon Knight has had some impressive agility displays (VS Hobgoblin, for example) and has used stealth well countless times.

I still say Todd is the better acrobat and a bit better trained. He would have a much greater breadth of Martial Arts knowledge at the very least. You're more likely to see nerve strikes or precision attacks out of Jason than Marc, to put it another way.

Indeed, but Moon Knight's massive durability advantage will allow him to more than likely survive an incident where Todd gets a range advantage first, IMHO.

Basically, yeah.

[Admin]

TOO....MANY....QUOTES..... *brain explodes*

It'd be tight, don't get me wrong. I just think Jason has shown more consistent overall skill in his appearances.

Naturally, I disagree. Moon Knight's only poor showings were during the civil war, which was for a valid reason. His knees were blown to hell, he was addicted to pills, and the woman he loves left him (after he hit her...shows how far down he went). Aside from that, Moon Knight has always been pretty damn good. Not as good as Daredevil, but i'd put him just a notch below, TBH. Like I said, MK #10 was an excellent example of him using skill (he dropped like 3-5 nerve strikes in one panel)

Grayson maybe.

I can't help but feel like they've always held back on one another.

But Bruce Wayne thought it was an impostor pretending to be Jason and he was pissed off. No holding back there.

I know, I never said Wayne held back against him during Under the Hood, but Todd required a good amount of tools to hold his own in that fight (taser was key, knife, guns). It was no doubt a good showing, but when they later went purely hand to hand (even in Hush), it's obvious who has the edge. Although, Wayne was shocked during Hush, to be fair.

Grayson is also a little hard to gauge at times. One minute he's struggling against Jason Todd, the next he beats Deathstroke's ass inside out? weird.

Extremely weird.

Very true but Jason is much more skilled and precise than Bushman. He is much more likely to spot weaknesses in the armor and exploit them.

Indeed, but at the same respect he's never displayed any good accuracy feats to support he could accomplish such with ease. He's had excellent reflex feats, which accuracy? I don't recall any, TBH.

I think so, but the question is; will Jason give him that time to recover?

I don't think either would give the other any time to recover, but I'm saying this under the belief the grenade is used with a distance between the two. We've also seen Moon Knight dodge numerous thrown bombs by Hobgoblin, so it's fair to assume if he gets hit, it's unlikely to be a direct hit. THe resulting blast could likely just knock him around, resulting in some (but not major) damage, IMO.

If he opens with it, it won't do much damage but it'll certainly put a ringing through Marc's ears and give Todd the opening he needs to take him down h2h.

Depends on the distance when this happens. If Todd gets first sight, it's unlikely it'll be close range. They're both pretty good with stealth (and agility), so an encounter might be at long range, and there's plenty of environmental factors (trees, large rock hills, the zoo, rides, etc). Central Park is massive and quite varied. I'd imagine Todd could even go for an upper body shot at a distance, which if it connects, will knock over Moon Knight but he'd immediately take cover and be okay, IMO.

At the very least he'll know how durable MK's armor is afterward. If he opens with a spread of AK-47 fire then he would already know before using the grenade.

Agreed.

Might make it interesting if he sets a booby trap to explode it over his exposed head.

How would he accomplish such with just a standard grenade?

I still say Todd is the better acrobat and a bit better trained. He would have a much greater breadth of Martial Arts knowledge at the very least. You're more likely to see nerve strikes or precision attacks out of Jason than Marc, to put it another way.

To be honest, I don't recall Todd ever using one (despite his good training), but I've seen Moon Knight use it numerous times. Come to think of it, I only remember Todd hitting a guy on both ears when he was Robin.

Basically, yeah.

Basically shh ur face.

[Dane]

well, I think we're hitting a stalemate. Jason Todd has good range but MK's armor is too good for it to matter. All you need to turn a grenade into a booby trap is some wire or improvised wire.

The main questions are:

1. Who can outstealth who?
2. Who could defeat the other in h2h/melee?
3. Could J-Todd use that grenade for any effective means?

[Admin]

I think based on the size of the environment, relying on Moon Knight to fall into a placed grenade is a poor choice in comparison to the mobility of using it any time in combat.

1. Who can outstealth who?
I agree that Todd has the small edge here, but it's so insignificant that I think either has the chance to stumble upon the other first due to the massive and varied location. One having enhanced senses would certainly simplify this
2. Who could defeat the other in h2h/melee?
Well, if they get close, it comes down to Todd having his batarangs (which we saw VS Drake, can be used well), but Moon Knight's armor heavily restricts their effectiveness. Where-as Moon Knight is coming to this close range encounter with a katana, and any attack he lands (and I have no real reason to believe he wouldn't be able to) will hinder Todd. Be it a slash to the thigh or a stab through a shoulder, it will reduce his combat effectiveness. Even if they were just going h2h only, I'd dispute their skill is so close that Moon Knight's armor is what creates the deciding factor for me.

3. Could J-Todd use that grenade for any effective means?
Yes, but I view it as being just as likely for Moon Knight to be able to barely escape the primary radius of the blast, resulting in less damage taken. Even so, being in the blast could knock him to cover or another location, and we know if he can survive/recover from such. Sure, there are definitely scenarios where the blast could knock him at Todd's feet, and then he just puts a bullet in his brain. But I view the former as being more likely, due to Moon Knight's previous displays against explosives and his use of agility.

[Dane]

1. I agree. They're quite close. I'd give Todd a slight advantage but nothing major.

2. Yes and no. I think they're very even without weapons or armor. With them I think MK certainly has the better armor, carbonadium vs kevlar. But that armor doesn't cover all of his body. There are still sections along the legs, arms and especially head that aren't covered.

3. I think that possibility does put Todd's "out of ten" percentage up. It's got to be at least 1-2/10 that he can snag an easy win here. Whereas up close MK has a better chance.

[Admin]

1. We're in agreement then.

2. I was under the impression I was giving my opinion about the circumstances and variables for this match. Without armor and weapons? I can see this as being a brutal match with either having the potential to take the edge, TBH. While he does indeed have weakpoints in the armor, they're few and far between (minus the head), and he has far less weak points than Todd does. Plus, Moon Knight having the katana furthers his close range advantage, IMHO.

3.Even with the grenade, I don't see it being an easy win. For that situation to happen, Todd must use the grenade in rather close proximity. This means he'd also have to dodge the blast. But like I said, his numerous dodging feats lead me to believe he can handle the grenade well a majority of the time.

[Admin]

I believe it's important to note that even after the brutal Bushman fight, Marc was still able to walk and operate just fine. (this was after numerous shotgun blasts, machine gun rounds, two massive explosives, a few pistol rounds, and a few strikes to the face)
www.comicvine.com/myvine/k4tzm4n/all-images/108-259592/16/105-1503009/
Also, here's the part I was talking about with nerve strikes:
www.comicvine.com/myvine/k4tzm4n/all-images/108-259592/vengeance_of_moon_knight_010_pg_14_copy/105-1462893/

[Dane]

@k4tz well we're fairly much in agreement sir. I tried to make it as even as possible and I'm really just playing DA here.

I think it's a really even match but MK does have a slight edge up close, particularly because of his armor. It could go either way depending on how things pan out. I don't think either of them have anything the other can't get past.

[Admin]

Jan 8, 2011 0:01:40 GMT -5 Dane said:

@k4tz well we're fairly much in agreement sir. I tried to make it as even as possible and I'm really just playing DA here.

I think it's a really even match but MK does have a slight edge up close, particularly because of his armor. It could go either way depending on how things pan out. I don't think either of them have anything the other can't get past.

Fair enough.

[ckal]

First off, I have to say to both of you gentlemen- Great avatars.

Second: I won't be getting involved, but I'm going to ask a question that may or may not be a factor in this fight. What kind of morals does current MK have? He is back to Spector, but is still apparently unwilling to kill, although he seems to have no problem being brutal. Is Jason Todd willing to kill?

[Admin]

Jan 8, 2011 0:25:17 GMT -5 ckal said:

First off, I have to say to both of you gentlemen- Great avatars.

Second: I won't be getting involved, but I'm going to ask a question that may or may not be a factor in this fight. What kind of morals does current MK have? He is back to Spector, but is still apparently unwilling to kill, although he seems to have no problem being brutal. Is Jason Todd willing to kill?

Thanks. Marc doesn't enjoy killing, but like you said, he'll make sure his foe is defeated. Todd has no gripe killing, assuming he believes the enemy is a bad guy.

[ckal]

k4tz- OK. Sounds like this fight has the potential to be a very brutal confrontation in the end. Do you think Marc's high pain tolerance will give him an edge here?

(off topic) is that hobgoblin av from a recent spidey issue?

EDIT: Nevermind, it is the from the cover of issue #649.