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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 20, 2011 17:04:09 GMT -5
Well Hercules is not a murderer either but according to you, Hera manipulated him into becoming one. You can blame the gods for Hercules' depiction against the Amazons if you want. Which should be the point of the story. Not that X is better the Y or making X look bad so that Y looks better by comparison. The marriage is a small thing and myths do not cover every minute detail anyway. They cover the broad strokes and they also are not accurate either. The myths are accurate in the sense that they are the "real" story, that is by this I mean they are the story as it is in the real world. Unless we come up with something unilaterally more awesome then the original actual myth. Then any story we write should use the myth and not DC's own version they made up. Hippolyta does not need strength near Hercules to defeat him. Heroes without notable strength beat those with all the time and it almost always in ways other than trying to out muscle them. Except there is zero reason, myth wise why she should be able to beat him by other means. This panel shows Hercules fighting like a brutish moron. Only in the myths he's a highly tactical peerless warrior with war cunning and skill along with his strenght. He was trained by the centaur Chiron into becoming the greatest warrior greece had so far seen. And here they have him swinging trees and fighting like a brute. Bad taste if you ask me and a poor alteration. In this scene, one of Ares' minions works his magic to manipulate Hercules. This never made sense. Hades is barely under Zeus in power. It makes no sense that Ares or Athena could have any say in the matter. Hades's dominion over the underworld was his reward after the titans were defeated.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jul 20, 2011 17:07:54 GMT -5
In this scene, one of Ares' minions works his magic to manipulate Hercules. This never made sense. Hades is barely under Zeus in power. It makes no sense that Ares or Athena could have any say in the matter. Hades's dominion over the underworld was his reward after the titans were defeated. What does that sequence have to do with Hades?
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 20, 2011 17:12:02 GMT -5
What does that sequence have to do with Hades? Athena has neither the authority, power or ability to give the underworld to Ares. Ares has neither the power, authority or ability to take the underworld from Hades.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jul 20, 2011 17:18:15 GMT -5
Okay, you had me confused there for a sec because you quoted the Hercules segment. Athena had the authority to give Ares the underworld because, at the time, older Gods lost their power due to the society shifting over the ages, and Athena emerged as the new ruler of Olympus. This has apparently been disregarded by the later WW comics.
On a side note, I am really annoyed by that overly present "Gods need prayer badly" trope. Gods are the absolute ones in the order of the universe. People need Gods, not the other way around.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 20, 2011 17:36:06 GMT -5
Okay, you had me confused there for a sec because you quoted the Hercules segment. I quoted the wrong segment apparently. I wanted to quote the one where Erik mentions athena gaves Ares the underworld in DC. Something she was never capable of doing. On a side note, I am really annoyed by that overly present "Gods need prayer badly" trope. Gods are the absolute ones in the order of the universe. People need Gods, not the other way around. I HATE that trope. It's a modern invention that made it's way into litterature sometime around the 1950s or a little later. It has no basis whatsoever in actual religion or myth. In real world religion and myth, mortals need the mercy of gods. Gods do whatever the fuck they want. That's all, mortals have no power over gods beyond being able to convince them or having access to powerful magic in the case of some weaker gods.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 20, 2011 18:45:19 GMT -5
@crom:
It is not about making Hercules look bad. It is about showcasing the clear combat ability of the Amazon people. They are a people made for war and I think something like that should be shown.
What I meant by saying that myths are not accurate is that there is no single story about Hippolyta for example that is not contradicted several times. By how much of a mess the actual myths are for her, writing a fiction is just as good if not better than trying to marry all the myths together.
There is a reason why she should be able to beat him. Because she is a better fighter. Myths tend to exaggerate events. Why could not be such an exaggeration that Hercules is a master tactician or that he is ever the cool and calculating demi-god? Why cannot that be the myth and the truth is that he is flawed? That is how he is depicted in both Marvel and DC. As a flawed character.
I know of Hades power in relation to Zeus. It was not about power in the story that brought Ares into power. Besides, Ares became arguably the most powerful god in DC back in the 80s anyway.
Also, in modern times, Athena had been getting a huge power boost while Zeus had been losing power. Athena is the goddess of wisdom and man's knowledge on all things in the DC universe facilitated her power boost to where she was the most powerful of the gods. Meanwhile Zeus had been falling out of power and his fuse with his Roman avatar had left him mentally unstable to some degree. At first he was schizophrenic but they fixed him (I cannot remember how it was done) so that now it was more or less just constantly making poor decisions as the god of the gods. Ares had changed himself to no longer just be the god of war but also the god of conflict so his power boost was immense.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 20, 2011 19:08:53 GMT -5
It is not about making Hercules look bad. It is about showcasing the clear combat ability of the Amazon people. They are a people made for war and I think something like that should be shown. She doesn't need to win to show that. It's just making the guy that: -Separated the earth creating the entry between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean - Outwrestled a hydra -killed the neamean lion by snapping it's back -tamed the syphilician birds -brought back Cerberus out of hell in chains and tamed out to be less then he actually is. Hercules has defeated armies single-handedly. The mere fact that she does not get flattened to goo by him is far enough of a showing against a being that is strong enough to hold the entire sky on his shoulders. What I meant by saying that myths are not accurate is that there is no single story about Hippolyta for example that is not contradicted several times. key points and themes are the same. Which means they take precedence in accuracy over entirely made up material canon by a single company or two. Myths tend to exaggerate events. no they tell of mythical events. There is a large difference. If you are in a world where the myths are true. The yes it's entirely reasonable that a man can do things entirely impossible. Why could not be such an exaggeration that Hercules is a master tactician or that he is ever the cool and calculating demi-god? Why cannot that be the myth and the truth is that he is flawed? That is how he is depicted in both Marvel and DC. As a flawed character. He is flawed in the myths. He gets tricked, he mourns, he rages etc. He's very human. But the problem is that in DC and Marvel, he's made into a boorish stupid tobleron jock. Rather then the great hero, warrior and demigod he is. He is a trained and skilled fighter. He was trained by great masters in all arts of war He's always shown as fighting like a dumb brute in DC and Marvel. Like in that scan. This kind of writing is poor. Don't make Hercules look bad so that Hyppolita can look good. Just make Hyppolita good is my position. Athena had been getting a huge power boost while Zeus had been losing power. Athena is the goddess of wisdom and man's knowledge on all things in the DC universe facilitated her power boost to where she was the most powerful of the gods. Meanwhile Zeus had been falling out of power and his fuse with his Roman avatar had left him mentally unstable to some degree. At first he was schizophrenic but they fixed him (I cannot remember how it was done) so that now it was more or less just constantly making poor decisions as the god of the gods. Except this has no basis the Greek Gods draw no power from man. They are power period. Their power level is predicated on who they are, their roles and their dominions. As king of the entire universe, lord of celestial bodies and just about everything that exists. Zeus's power diminishing has no basis in myth. He's the most powerful of the gods, that it. The greek gods do not get power from worship, neither do they need it. Ares had changed himself to no longer just be the god of war but also the god of conflict so his power boost was immense. Except again in the myths. Ares already has that role. Therefore again this makes no sense myth wise. He already had dominion over conflict. Zeus gave him that position.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jul 20, 2011 19:29:54 GMT -5
-killed the neamean lion by snapping it's back Didn't he choke him?
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 20, 2011 19:33:30 GMT -5
Yes, but whether he choked him to death or snapped it's back depends on the versions. The point was that he wrestled the beast in the dark and ultimately prevailed despite the beasts immense power.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 20, 2011 21:54:28 GMT -5
You keep talking about strength as if it is a deciding factor. By that logic, Batman never survives his first year of vigilantism.
Key points being she dies but no one seems to be able to decide how or when. I prefer the one where she does not die.
You are splitting hairs. Myths do exaggerate events that actually happen AND they tell of mythical events. It does not have to be one or the other.
Marvel makes him into a simpler guy. DC does not. At least not in any of his Wonder Woman adventures. I never disputed that he is a trained and skillful fighter. I am saying that Hippolyta should be better since that is the entire purpose of her creation.
None of George Perez's work on WW was poor.
You say that there is no shame in losing to Hercules. I say there is no shame in losing to Hippolyta. It is literally the same thing you were saying only turned back on yourself. Hippolyta was created as a master combatant. All Amazons were. Their least skilled warrior is supposed to be able to stand with DC's best non-powered individuals.
I never said that Greek gods in actual myth need worshipers to thrive, merely telling you what it was in DC stories. By the way, those stories were among Wonder Woman's best stories to date.
That myth where Zeus gave Ares that title probably is not recognized in DC's myth. Just like Thor's brother Balder was revealed as such in myth but in Marvel no one knew about it until recently when Thor was exiled. Just like Wonder Woman is actually Pandora and Gaea herself. You should not worry about making DC's myth an exact or near exact duplicate of an alternate universe's (ours). It is unnecessary. They are different universes after all. Making duplicate history should be a far second to compelling story.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 20, 2011 23:20:31 GMT -5
You keep talking about strength as if it is a deciding factor. By that logic, Batman never survives his first year of vigilantism. well by real world logic, he shouldn't have Key points being she dies but no one seems to be able to decide how or when. I prefer the one where she does not die. While I prefer one where she does die, like in the myth whom I find far more interesting and tragic then the DC version. You are splitting hairs. Myths do exaggerate events that actually happen AND they tell of mythical events. It does not have to be one or the other. No I'm not a myth where X character does something awesome, is not an exageration. It's a story where Y happens. Y being ridiculously awesome is not an exaggeration because myths are by definition "not real" (in the sense that they involve supernatural powers and events) I never disputed that he is a trained and skillful fighter. I am saying that Hippolyta should be better since that is the entire purpose of her creation. And I'm pointing out that given the facts about the actual mythical hercules there is no basis for Hypolita to be better, Combined with exponentially better physical attributes I see no reason why Hyppolita would win. It seems like a cheap way to make her look good that denigrates the greatest of the greek heroes. None of George Perez's work on WW was poor. A work can be excellent as a whole while having poorer sections. Or sections not up to par with the rest. It doesn't change if the work as a whole is excellent. Perez did awesome work, but he has low points. Examples like these are one of them. I'm not saying this to diss Perez. I like his work but if we want to improve on WW we have be able to criticize previous work. Hippolyta was created as a master combatant. All Amazons were. Their least skilled warrior is supposed to be able to stand with DC's best non-powered individuals. And Hercules was a master combatant trained by the greatest of teachers along with being a powerful demigod with strength on par with his father the king of the gods. Armed with mythical weapons and years of experience. If anything all these things combined Hyppolita not being beaten is far enough of a feat considering that she has nowhere close to a similar combination of attributes and skill together. I never said that Greek gods in actual myth need worshipers to thrive, merely telling you what it was in DC stories. By the way, those stories were among Wonder Woman's best stories to date. I never liked this depiction of the Greek gods in DC in makes no sense, clashed with other DC canon and is a direct contradiction with myths I love and mythology in general I'm saying this while acknowledging that the stories were good. It still needs to be changed and retconned out. It diminishes the awesome of gods in the DC universe. Just like Wonder Woman is actually Pandora and Gaea herself. Something that to me never made any sense based on everything that defines what Gaia and Pandora are. Let alone WW I've already answered and covered this in another post to you elsewhere here on the site so I won't needlessly elaborate it again. You should not worry about making DC's myth an exact or near exact duplicate of an alternate universe's (ours). It is unnecessary. They are different universes after all. Making duplicate history should be a far second to compelling story. I'm not worried about that. I'm concerned when we would choose what I find is a less interesting version (the DC version) rather then the one I find more interesting (the myths) When we are talking about writing the perfect WW story. We should take the best versions and interpretation or if we can't decide what is best some middle ground to explore rather then defaulting to one version that one of us dislikes and build it up. It's a theorethical scenario. We can scrap everything and rebuild it completely better in every way.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 20, 2011 23:45:58 GMT -5
@crom: Hercules does not have exponentially better physical attributes. He has one attribute that is insanely beyond hers. That is strength.
It does not seem like a cheap way to make her look good to me nor do I agree that it denigrates Hercules. Besides, I do not think we could use myth Amazons anyway. It is my understanding that they were not specifically created by the gods as opposed to DC's version.
There are things about WW that could be improved upon sure. I just do not see how Perez's recreation of Wonder Woman is considered poor writing because it does not seamlessly flow with real life myth. I am sure he rationalized his changes as things get told over history and become distorted and things get changed around for dramatic flare or simple human error. The people in his stories actually lived it. They have first hand experience and not the word of a man who wrote down word of mouth legends on scrolls hundreds of years after the fact.
Master combatant that should be less skilled than Hippolyta. Hercules had to be trained to his combat prowess. With the Amazons, it is their life in every sense of the word. It only makes sense that by using his own strength against him, an Amazon could take him down. And again, no one is disputing her physical stats in relation to him, least of all her. But she (and I for that matter) simply state that she is his superior fighter.
I love that Wonder Woman is actually Gaea/Pandora. I think that it is fascinating.
I agree that the best of both worlds should be used in recreating WW history. But what is considered best of both worlds is very clearly in the eye of the beholder and we cannot even agree on whether or not Hippolyta should beat Hercules and/or die lol.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 20, 2011 23:59:32 GMT -5
@crom: Hercules does not have exponentially better physical attributes. He has one attribute that is insanely beyond hers. That is strength. strength that by feat alone allows him to cause earthquakes, snap his hands together and create a shockwave etc. Really the amount of stuff a being with that kind of strength could pull off his ridiculous. He literally rearranged the landscape with his strength. Besides, I do not think we could use myth Amazons anyway. It is my understanding that they were not specifically created by the gods as opposed to DC's version. actually they were, all humans and living things were either created by the gods or the titans. No reason why the amazons could not have been created differently then most humans. But she (and I for that matter) simply state that she is his superior fighter. Superior in skill, alright I can see that not by a very large margin mind you considering the skill of the mythic hercules. But my problem with him loosing is that a being with the strength of Hercules could pull off things so unearthly that he would be able to put up an offense that would wreck anything not within sufficiently close physical attributes by methods I've shown above (Shockwaves, earth quakes, etc) I love that Wonder Woman is actually Gaea/Pandora. I think that it is fascinating. It makes absolutely no sense logic and especially myth wise and it completely destroys the point of the Pandora story (first mortal woman who is flawed makes a mortal mistake, unleashes suffering on the world because she did not listen to the gods) Especially since Gaea in no way has any resemblance to Pandora. This is the kind of thing I'd completely scrap away.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 21, 2011 0:16:22 GMT -5
I am sure he can do those things but since when are those feats the go-to move for him in a one on one match?
You are missing my point. I know that humans were created by the gods in myth. That is not really what I meant. Man was created by the gods and then they became whatever like Spartan, Athenian, Amazon etc etc etc. In DC, the gods directly made this civilization of people.
I agree that if Hercules would have gotten his hands on her, he likely would have killed her with ease.
Nothing the gods have ever done make sense. It is myth, not science.
In DC it was not Pandora that opened the box but her husband at her behest.
I am not sure about them looking nothing alike. What were both of their physical descriptions? They looked a lot alike in the issue.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 21, 2011 0:23:35 GMT -5
In DC, the gods directly made this civilization of people. Civilization is a gift from the gods in Greek mythology. What humans learned to build their civilizations was taught to them by gods or directly gifted and made for them (Poseidon gave man the horse ready to ride for example, while Hera gave the laws and traditions of marriage) Nothing the gods have ever done make sense. It is myth, not science. They make perfect sense within their own narratives, models and internal consistent logic. When looked at from the greek perception of the world, it makes perfect sense. In DC it was not Pandora that opened the box but her husband at her behest. That makes even less sense then her opening the box herself. It makes no sense at all. It's headache inducing. I am not sure about them looking nothing alike. What were both of their physical descriptions? They looked a lot alike in the issue. I was speaking character, temperament and personality wise not physical appearance. Not that Gaia is described as looking like Pandora thought, because she isnt.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 21, 2011 0:33:38 GMT -5
That has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I am not talking about the gods giving man the ability to form civilization or creating man. If some guy who was born and raised in some Greek city suddenly goes out and creates a new city, would you directly attribute this feat to the gods? No of course not. How many specific civilizations did the gods create? How many of them did they stake the claim that these people are the chosen people of the gods? In DC the Amazons are the Greek gods version of Jews. The chosen people, directly created to deliver the message of the gods.
Skipping over the next two posts....
Considering that Pandora prayed to Gaea to be absorbed back into Gaea, I assume that Pandora was merely a piece of the whole. That could explain the personality differences. That and each of the gods gave their own gifts to the construct when they made it, Zeus giving her the insatiable curiosity if memory serves. In order to punish the guy the gift was intended for.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 21, 2011 14:01:08 GMT -5
How many of them did they stake the claim that these people are the chosen people of the gods? In DC the Amazons are the Greek gods version of Jews. The chosen people, directly created to deliver the message of the gods. Each of the city states had a patron god they viewed as their direct founder and protector that according to the myths made and chose them. Sparta believed they were the favorite of Ares, Athens it was Athena (whom won the position in contest with Poseidon) etc. Greek society had no central government except where they were under the control of the Persians (the persion emperor being the ruler there). It was self-ruled city-states. Each seen by their inhabitants as the favored and said to have created and are protected by their patron gods or a group of gods.
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Post by Dane on Aug 23, 2011 6:03:59 GMT -5
Wonder Woman #614 - Intentional upskirt?
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Aug 23, 2011 6:11:28 GMT -5
I stopped reading Oddyssey a few issues ago (I actually can't remember what the last issue I read was).
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Post by Lord Barbatos on Aug 23, 2011 6:36:09 GMT -5
Grant Morrison plans to bring the sex to Wonder Woman. www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/21/grant-morrison-plans-to-bring-the-sex-back-to-wonder-woman/So, Grant Morrison, when can we expect to see your long, long-awaited Wonder Woman series alongside artist Ethan Van Sciver? “It might be out next year,” he said over the weekend, speaking at the Edinburgh International Book Festival, “or it might not.” If you’re getting tired of waiting, you might want to blame Princess Diana’s creator William Moulton Marston for the delay. The late psychologist and free love exponent, who based Wonder Woman on he and his wife Elizabeth’s 18-year-old lover Olive Byrne and imagined a Themsycria where bondage-obsessed Amazons kept female slaves and pretended to hunt and eat one another, is Morrison’s prime inspiration for the series, which could explain any hesitation on DC’s part. “You can take the violence out of the original concept of Superman- all the drop-kicking bad guys into the ocean, which would basically kill them anyway,” said Morrison, “or you can take the gun out of early Batman, and these characters remain essentially the same. But you can’t take the sex out of Wonder Woman. That version of the character died with Marston in the 1940s and she hasn’t recovered her popularity since. “Superman’s meant to be this ultimate expression of masculinity and he still gets to be sexual. Wonder Woman’s meant to be the ultimate expression of womanhood and yet she isn’t allowed anything to do with sex.” It sounds as if what Morrison’s doing with the character fits more closely with his old pre-Vertigo reinventions of Doom Patrol and Animal Man than his current work on Batman and Superman. “It’s hard work trying to recreate what Marsden did without being exploitative or prurient,” he said. “I’ve had to do a ton of reading ahead of this, basically the history of feminist theory from Simone de Beauvoir to Andrea Dworkin.” Edit:update to orignal post ;D ;D ;D ;D
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