Avengers Academy #10 & 11

[Zoom]

Let me rephrase.

Cloud Nine, Komodo, Slapstick, Trauma, etc were interesting and unique characters.

Striker is a jerk. Reptil is boring. Hazmat and Mettle have been done before. Veil is okay. Finesse is fun. None of them have a unique power set except Veil whereas the previous class had almost all unique powers.


There is such a thing as an inferior character, a character who is less likable or less unique. You can say "well that's just like your opinion, man" or call it a personal problem but it isn't like these characters have a long history or anything to cause me to dislike them. They just aren't anything special and as a result, the book just isn't anything special, either. Instead, it is a hollow shadow of the book that came before.

[NexusOfLight]

Cloud 9, Komodo, Slapstick, Trauma, etc didn't have much of a "long history or anything" either, but you liked them. It is "just your opinion, man" that you like them over the characters in Academy for those exact reasons you just gave. So again I say, not liking any of the characters in a book that focuses on the characterization of those characters will in effect cause you not to like the book. Simple as that. It's not really Gage's fault that he didn't create characters to appeal specifically to your interests. He just created characters to work with in a story, much like every writer who creates new characters does. Personal. Problem.

@vance

Of course you do. But what can I say? Haters gon' hate. You and Zoom are obviously upset that Academy is the book that replaced Initiative. That's understandable. If the characters from Initiative were still around but still written by Gage, would you feel the same way? I remember you once saying that the problem with Academy was Slott being a better writer than Gage, but I'm still not entirely convinced that the reason for you hating Academy is anything more than the new character roster.

[Vance Astro]

Mar 22, 2011 13:43:24 GMT -5 NexusOfLight said:

Cloud 9, Komodo, Slapstick, Trauma, etc didn't have much of a "long history or anything" either, but you liked them. It is "just your opinion, man" that you like them over the characters in Academy for those exact reasons you just gave. So again I say, not liking any of the characters in a book that focuses on the characterization of those characters will in effect cause you not to like the book. Simple as that. It's not really Gage's fault that he didn't create characters to appeal specifically to your interests. He just created characters to work with in a story, much like every writer who creates new characters does. Personal. Problem.

@vance

Of course you do. But what can I say? Haters gon' hate. You and Zoom are obviously upset that Academy is the book that replaced Initiative. That's understandable. If the characters from Initiative were still around but still written by Gage, would you feel the same way? I remember you once saying that the problem with Academy was Slott being a better writer than Gage, but I'm still not entirely convinced that the reason for you hating Academy is anything more than the new character roster.

I'm not a hater.I don't like good things going down the drain to be replaced with something that ISN'T better.I have no problem with Gage as a writer in comparison to Slott.The entire setup of the book seems pointless.It's like they took bits and pieces of Initiative and Young Avengers and mashed them together to make a book.

[NexusOfLight]

Well, in the sense that the setup of the book is to bring about new characters in the Marvel universe, yeah, they're gonna be some elements of Young Avengers and Initiative mashed up in there. Quite honestly, the purpose of having an Initiative had ran it's course. SRA is gone, Rogers is in charge, and Osborn's out of power. The set up for Academy was to look at the younger generation of super humans and prevent something like the New Warriors at Stanford from causing another SRA to come about, which was sorta what the Initiative started out as being, but as I'm sure you could tell, it sorta dwindled in that department when Dark Reign came about. Naturally something had to replace it, so we have Academy. I wouldn't call any of that pointless.

[Zoom]

So there's no such thing as a better character than another? No such thing as a better book than another?

It's all just random personal opinion?


The initiative had not run its course. The initiative was introducing new characters and showcasing old ones, training them all to be responsible superheroes. Obviously, this is still something that needs to be done because they now do the same thing only with just the "screwed up" ones. This, as a concept, is inferior to the original premise because it doesn't make sense to forgo training dozens of heroes in favor of just training (less efficiently, it seems) a handful, specifically a handful that aren't really cut out to be heroes. Plus, once you create your characters, you're stuck with them. Since Gage didn't create particularly interesting characters, we're now stuck with them.

[NexusOfLight]

Well, seeing as how I think these characters are interesting, that this book is good, and that the level of quality is almost exactly the same as the Initiative, yeah, I'd say there is such a thing as "random personal opinion."

One of the things I actually didn't like about Initiative was that the character rosters seemed to always be changing. Like you said, they were introducing new characters and showcasing old ones. When I read a book about a group of characters, I want that book to be about that particular group of characters. In this respect, I think Academy is better than Initiative. I don't think it's an inferior concept for a book to have because I'm enjoying that particular concept better. Are you stuck with these characters? Only if you choose to continue reading about them.

[Vance Astro]

Mar 22, 2011 14:09:29 GMT -5 NexusOfLight said:

Well, in the sense that the setup of the book is to bring about new characters in the Marvel universe, yeah, they're gonna be some elements of Young Avengers and Initiative mashed up in there. Quite honestly, the purpose of having an Initiative had ran it's course. SRA is gone, Rogers is in charge, and Osborn's out of power. The set up for Academy was to look at the younger generation of super humans and prevent something like the New Warriors at Stanford from causing another SRA to come about, which was sorta what the Initiative started out as being, but as I'm sure you could tell, it sorta dwindled in that department when Dark Reign came about. Naturally something had to replace it, so we have Academy. I wouldn't call any of that pointless.

The problem is this.This book doesn't have to exist.It would be like canceling Thunderbolts right now..creating a team that's almost exactly like it and changing the name.It doesn't serve a purpose.Avengers:Initiative was selling well.It was well written and it has the same exact premise as this book.I will read a comic if I don't like the roster.I read Slott's Mighty Avengers (turned out to be my favorite Avengers book in, Dark Reign) it's just hard to read this when a better book already existed.

[jakefury]

The only Initiative stories I read were heavy on Taskmaster, Diamondback and Constrictor and I enjoyed them. I don't really have a basis to compare the two books.

I've got the Secret Invasion trade somewhere. Would anyone recommend it?

[jakefury]

Mar 21, 2011 22:27:31 GMT -5 NexusOfLight said:

Yeah, which to me as a reader of the review is sorta off putting. The purpose of the review isn't to read the entire story. It's supposed to make the reader want to see the story for themselves. Tell us what you thought about it. What could have made the story better? What was off putting about it? What did you really like about it? What kind of reader would enjoy the story the most? What kind of reader would hate it? Just little things like that. Sure, you can do a little summary, but don't retell the whole story. You did a great job with your review of issue 10. Your review of 11 should have been more like that.

I was inna mood when I did this. It was therapeutic. LOL

[NexusOfLight]

Mar 22, 2011 18:08:41 GMT -5 @jakefury said:

I was inna mood when I did this. It was therapeutic. LOL

Therapy's good. I'm glad you feel better.

Mar 22, 2011 17:54:31 GMT -5 Vance Astro said:

The problem is this.This book doesn't have to exist.It would be like canceling Thunderbolts right now..creating a team that's almost exactly like it and changing the name.It doesn't serve a purpose.Avengers:Initiative was selling well.It was well written and it has the same exact premise as this book.I will read a comic if I don't like the roster.I read Slott's Mighty Avengers (turned out to be my favorite Avengers book in, Dark Reign) it's just hard to read this when a better book already existed.

But didn't the Thunderbolts book do that anyway? I haven't been reading Thunderbolts and I'm certainly not an expert on the title or any of the characters in it, but from what I understand, when Dark Reign was over and Luke Cage took the reigns, the exact same thing happened. New roster, new direction, same general concept of villains working as heroes. The only difference is that they didn't change the name Thunderbolts to Avengers: Villains Reformed or somethin' like that. If Avengers Academy had of just kept with the same numbering and title of Avengers Initiative, you'd still have the same problem with it because you'd still think

Mar 22, 2011 13:11:17 GMT -5 Vance Astro said:

Half the roster is worthless.

[jakefury]

thanks Nexus

[Vance Astro]

Mar 22, 2011 18:33:34 GMT -5 NexusOfLight said:

Mar 22, 2011 18:08:41 GMT -5 @jakefury said:

I was inna mood when I did this. It was therapeutic. LOL

Therapy's good. I'm glad you feel better.


But didn't the Thunderbolts book do that anyway? I haven't been reading Thunderbolts and I'm certainly not an expert on the title or any of the characters in it, but from what I understand, when Dark Reign was over and Luke Cage took the reigns, the exact same thing happened. New roster, new direction, same general concept of villains working as heroes. The only difference is that they didn't change the name Thunderbolts to Avengers: Villains Reformed or somethin' like that. If Avengers Academy had of just kept with the same numbering and title of Avengers Initiative, you'd still have the same problem with it because you'd still think

Mar 22, 2011 13:11:17 GMT -5 Vance Astro said:

Half the roster is worthless.

The difference between Thunderbolts and Avengers Academy is that the Thunderbolts HAD TO be reformed.The Initiative didn't.All the members are still available.They were only disassembled by Norman whom is no longer in power so there's no actual reason why that team can't exist anymore.

The numbering and the title doesn't matter.The new format is the problem.The Initiative recruits weren't the only characters covered by that book.There were alot of characters we rarely got to see that were getting some action now because they had a home.It was a good way for Marvel to use all of the characters they've been neglecting for years plus introduce us to new ones.I don't HATE this book it's just not living up to the expectations of a book that's taking the place of Avengers:The Initiative.

[NexusOfLight]

No reason to exist other than the team having ran its course, but I get what you're saying.

However, like I was saying to Zoom, that was one of the only things I didn't like about Initiative. It didn't have a set of characters to focus on. It wasn't a story about the starting Initiative recruits, but a collection of stories about various recruits and groups in the Initiative. Yeah they were good stories, and yeah I did enjoy them, but there were times I was wondering "Okay, this is kinda cool, but what about the people that caught my interest when I picked up this book?" Perfect example of that was Butterball. Loved his character. Loved his story. Loved how it played out, but didn't care for it at all comparing it to someone like Cloud 9. And then there was Thor Girl. I was ecstatic to see that she was in it, but like your reaction to most of the characters in the Dark Avengers book, I didn't like that there was nothing done with her, and there couldn't have been anything done with her given the set up of Initiative. So, in that respect, I'm glad Academy's not going down that route, and if that means it doesn't live up to Initiative, then that's completely fine with me.

Let me see some real development with who you have before you change the setting to a group of other people. When I first picked up Academy I was drawn in by the fact that these characters were all broken, all had problems, and weren't the ideal type people fit to be super heroes. I continue to stay with the book to see how the story deals with that, and so far, I've been more than pleased.

[Vance Astro]

Mar 22, 2011 21:00:26 GMT -5 NexusOfLight said:

No reason to exist other than the team having ran its course, but I get what you're saying.

However, like I was saying to Zoom, that was one of the only things I didn't like about Initiative. It didn't have a set of characters to focus on. It wasn't a story about the starting Initiative recruits, but a collection of stories about various recruits and groups in the Initiative. Yeah they were good stories, and yeah I did enjoy them, but there were times I was wondering "Okay, this is kinda cool, but what about the people that caught my interest when I picked up this book?" Perfect example of that was Butterball. Loved his character. Loved his story. Loved how it played out, but didn't care for it at all comparing it to someone like Cloud 9. And then there was Thor Girl. I was ecstatic to see that she was in it, but like your reaction to most of the characters in the Dark Avengers book, I didn't like that there was nothing done with her, and there couldn't have been anything done with her given the set up of Initiative. So, in that respect, I'm glad Academy's not going down that route, and if that means it doesn't live up to Initiative, then that's completely fine with me.

Let me see some real development with who you have before you change the setting to a group of other people. When I first picked up Academy I was drawn in by the fact that these characters were all broken, all had problems, and weren't the ideal type people fit to be super heroes. I continue to stay with the book to see how the story deals with that, and so far, I've been more than pleased.

If not for all the events they were involved in you would have been able to focus on a small amount of members but with everything going on they had to spread them like that.The Initiative recruits WERE the main focus of the group and there was alot of time spent on them but because of World War Hulk,Civil War,Initiative,Secret Invasion and then Dark Reign they made the team into more of an army instead of just a grouping of rookie heroes.

[NexusOfLight]

For the first ten issues or so, yeah, they were the main focus, but then the focus shifted to a whole other group of recruits, and then if shifted again. Yes, it was undoubtedly due to all the events of the Marvel Universe, but that wouldn't have been much of a problem if it wasn't for the set up of the book, and that was it was a country-wide initiative.

Look at New Avengers. The events caused a few roster changes, but overall it was still a book about the Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Man, Strange on occasion, etc. It's for reasons like that we have multiple Avengers books to begin with. They're all about a band of super heroes fighting against evil, but they all have their own set of characters in their own part of the world. West Coast, Mighty, Young, New, Academy, etc.

There shouldn't be a book that serves as a foster home to a bunch of characters that aren't currently in a title and say "this is us saying sorry for neglecting all these characters before, here you go."

[Vance Astro]

Mar 22, 2011 21:26:38 GMT -5 NexusOfLight said:

For the first ten issues or so, yeah, they were the main focus, but then the focus shifted to a whole other group of recruits, and then if shifted again. Yes, it was undoubtedly due to all the events of the Marvel Universe, but that wouldn't have been much of a problem if it wasn't for the set up of the book, and that was it was a country-wide initiative.

Look at New Avengers. The events caused a few roster changes, but overall it was still a book about the Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Man, Strange on occasion, etc. It's for reasons like that we have multiple Avengers books to begin with. They're all about a band of super heroes fighting against evil, but they all have their own set of characters in their own part of the world. West Coast, Mighty, Young, New, Academy, etc.

There shouldn't be a book that serves as a foster home to a bunch of characters that aren't currently in a title and say "this is us saying sorry for neglecting all these characters before, here you go."

Sadly with New Avengers only certain characters have done anything and they've had virtually the same roster for like 4 years now.Dr.Strange got just as much action when he wasn't on the team as he did on it and he basically the focal since day one despite Bendis pretending he was going to make the best of his use of Luke Cage.He didn't.Even with such an extensive roster...Slott managed to use all of the recruits to their potential.The "trainers" aside from Taskmaster and Gauntlet are the only characters that seemed to do very little.

[NexusOfLight]

Very true. And I agree for the most part. Not entirely, but for the most part concerning this conversation. Like I said, all the stories with the characters in Initiative were good stories. They were great stories that definitely made the best use of the set of characters the stories focused on during each event. I was just stating that I wasn't all that much a fan of the switching the focus from one group of characters to another.

So far Academy's been working through each character in the group they've chosen to focus on, and has been doing a great job showcasing each characters flaws and how they're going about working through/with them. If there were an event to take place in the coming months (i.e. Fear Itself) I don't have to worry about Gage giving us a snippet of the roster he started his book off with and the shifting focus to another group across the country who happens to be a part of the overarching Initiative, because that's not the way the Academy book has been set up, which means I can see how the main roster handles the event along with how they get through the over-arching problems they're already facing.

[Vance Astro]

Mar 22, 2011 18:06:26 GMT -5 @jakefury said:

The only Initiative stories I read were heavy on Taskmaster, Diamondback and Constrictor and I enjoyed them. I don't really have a basis to compare the two books.

I've got the Secret Invasion trade somewhere. Would anyone recommend it?

We're comparing them because they are basically the same book.I would recommend the Secret Invasion book.Initiative's Secret Invasion was one of the best parts of that arc.

[Vance Astro]

Mar 22, 2011 22:13:26 GMT -5 NexusOfLight said:

Very true. And I agree for the most part. Not entirely, but for the most part concerning this conversation. Like I said, all the stories with the characters in Initiative were good stories. They were great stories that definitely made the best use of the set of characters the stories focused on during each event. I was just stating that I wasn't all that much a fan of the switching the focus from one group of characters to another.

So far Academy's been working through each character in the group they've chosen to focus on, and has been doing a great job showcasing each characters flaws and how they're going about working through/with them. If there were an event to take place in the coming months (i.e. Fear Itself) I don't have to worry about Gage giving us a snippet of the roster he started his book off with and the shifting focus to another group across the country who happens to be a part of the overarching Initiative, because that's not the way the Academy book has been set up, which means I can see how the main roster handles the event along with how they get through the over-arching problems they're already facing.

I can understand how you wouldn't want the focus of the book to shift from one group to another but at the same time Marvel has a serious issue with actually utilizing all the characters they have.They will have a character be present and well for a whole arc.They will then disappear and they won't tell you where they are,what they are doing or anything.For instance...where's Toxin? He was supposedly a member of the Initiative.We haven't ACTUALLY seen him in years.That type of stuff has gotten beyond annoying at this point..especially because for me, Marvel's biggest asset is their characters.

[NexusOfLight]

Preachin' to the choir. I'm well aware of that. Thor Girl's still running to Asgard to warn about Ragnarok, the Starjammers are still heading back to earth after the War of Kings (hopefully DnA take good care of that), still waiting on word from Cammi about whether she's alright or not after the whole Annihilation thing went down, all an' all, it's nothing new, and it's kinda expected given the sheer amount of characters they have and changing writers.

The reason for the Starjammers being lost in space was because the cosmic writers thought the X-men writers were gonna pick them up, and the X-men writers thought the cosmic writers were still usin' em. Same general reason with Thor Girl. Gage and Fraction had their own stories going on and when whatever happened happened, she got lost in transition or whatever. I mean, how's Fraction going to automatically know what Gage is doing with a Thor related character? Should there be better communication? Of course, that would probably be the best thing for writers to do with this idea of a shared universe, but at the same time, should the writers just interrupt whatever plans for their story arc, just to incorporate another character so he doesn't go to limbo? I wouldn't be cool with that either, because chances are, that character would just sit in the background anyway. Toxin being on the Initiative? What would he do? You'd maybe see him run around as a background character in one of the panels, but if Gage wasn't using him for the story, he'd be just as useless, if not more, than Thor Girl.

So in a way, I can understand why a lot of characters get forgotten and there should be something done to decrease that from happening as much as possible, but making a book to just throw all the forgotten limbo dwellers in as a means to make up for it isn't a good solution to it.