NBC Rejects 'Wonder Woman' Pilot

[Phantom Stargrave]

May 13, 2011 12:51:37 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Copy and pasted outdated (likely at the time of its creation) analysis. WW post Crisis has never been a romantic interest with Steve Trevor. And Nemesis is a little douche-y as well.
I hate it when people that never read the comics of her try to analyze the character. You cannot give an accurate analysis from a wiki bio. She also has stated several times she is not a feminist nor do her views fit the description of a feminist and that is true.

I think you missed the point a bit. It's not about feminism, it's about a woman in man's world. They're not necessarily the same thing.

Also, Nemesis is absolutely awesome... Outside of Wonder Woman comics.

[Erik-El]

May 13, 2011 16:04:25 GMT -5 Phantom Stargrave said:

May 13, 2011 12:51:37 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Copy and pasted outdated (likely at the time of its creation) analysis. WW post Crisis has never been a romantic interest with Steve Trevor. And Nemesis is a little douche-y as well.
I hate it when people that never read the comics of her try to analyze the character. You cannot give an accurate analysis from a wiki bio. She also has stated several times she is not a feminist nor do her views fit the description of a feminist and that is true.

I think you missed the point a bit. It's not about feminism, it's about a woman in man's world. They're not necessarily the same thing.

Also, Nemesis is absolutely awesome... Outside of Wonder Woman comics.

Without going back and reading it again, I remember it saying something about WW being a feminist.

But you do have me on the Nemesis thing. I only have read him in WW issues. You say he is in the Outsiders? I might pick up the title then since it shares a character with the one title I read. I am just scared to do it. DC took the fun out of Power Girl, made Superboy completely boring, made a mess of Birds of Prey, and temporarily ruined Superman. The jury is still out on WW. Did they revert the retcon yet? The covers look like they did, I just have not gotten around to reading the stack to see.

[Crom-Cruach]

May 13, 2011 18:23:00 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

DC took the fun out of Power Girl, made Superboy completely boring, made a mess of Birds of Prey, and temporarily ruined Superman. The jury is still out on WW. Did they revert the retcon yet? The covers look like they did, I just have not gotten around to reading the stack to see.

See this is why you should do like me and drop DC and marvel like I did lol.

[Admin]

What kind of cookies?

[Crom-Cruach]

Whatever kind you want. We're the Dark Side all them cookies are belong to us.

[Erik-El]

I cannot just give up on them because I know that eventually, they will get back on track. Most of these disappointments are because they are trying to find new readers (like Superman and his artsy-fartsy-coffee-shop-anti-America thing) or they are using sub par writers like that BoP girl.

[Admin]

May 13, 2011 18:28:35 GMT -5 Crom-Cruach said:

Whatever kind you want. We're the Dark Side all them cookies are belong to us.

My loyalty has been purchased.


Hello, daibetes!

[Crom-Cruach]

May 13, 2011 18:33:15 GMT -5 Admin said:

My loyalty has been purchased.

Erik-El: Eh your loss.

[Admin]

DIABOLICAL FROG!

[Crom-Cruach]

Lol, he's one of my minions!

[Phantom Stargrave]

May 13, 2011 18:23:00 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

May 13, 2011 16:04:25 GMT -5 Phantom Stargrave said:

Without going back and reading it again, I remember it saying something about WW being a feminist.

But you do have me on the Nemesis thing. I only have read him in WW issues. You say he is in the Outsiders? I might pick up the title then since it shares a character with the one title I read. I am just scared to do it. DC took the fun out of Power Girl, made Superboy completely boring, made a mess of Birds of Prey, and temporarily ruined Superman. The jury is still out on WW. Did they revert the retcon yet? The covers look like they did, I just have not gotten around to reading the stack to see.

LOL Erik... I said Outside of Wonder Woman. Not Outsiders. ;D

Nemesis was featured in Ostrander's Suicide Squad, which is something I'd recommend to everyone. Do be warned though, Ostrander's Nemesis has virtually NOTHING in common with Wonder Woman's Nemesis, character wise. They may be completely different people in that regard.

[Erik-El]

Oh my mistake. Well if they are that different then never mind.

[Phantom Stargrave]

It is still a very good read though.

[Erik-El]

May 13, 2011 19:03:22 GMT -5 Phantom Stargrave said:

It is still a very good read though.

I might risk it. Have you read any of the recent WW issues?

[Phantom Stargrave]

May 13, 2011 19:04:24 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

May 13, 2011 19:03:22 GMT -5 Phantom Stargrave said:

It is still a very good read though.

I might risk it. Have you read any of the recent WW issues?

I've missed out on the last issue =. I've been slacking with my comics lately, too much RL commitments taking away my time and energy.
Last I heard of, the retcon was still alive and kicking.

[Erik-El]

Dammit. The covers lied but covers usually do.

[Power NeXus]

Speaking of boobs, hers look incredibly uncomfortable in that bustier. There's no way she could fight crime in that and keep them in place.

I think a lot of fanboys were actually looking forward to that particular aspect of the costume. "Come on... just jump around a little more... the left one's almost out..."

[Crom-Cruach]

true for sure.

[Zoom]

Well if she's not suited to the medium, hard to write well and nobody pulls it off...

Kinda goes back to my original point about her not being half the character Batman or Superman is.

But even "woman in a man's world" done perfectly is just not nearly as strong of a concept as "man pushes himself to his mental and physical limits to protect his city from madmen" or "superhuman vows to protect the planet while still holding himself to the standard of serving a world he could easily rule."

Arguably, half the planet has to experience being a woman in man's world. It isn't original, it isn't engrossing and I strongly disagree that it's "edgy" or "relevant."

Granted, there are few original/relevant superheroes (relevant can pretty much be cut down to Superman, Batman, Spider-Man and the X-Men) but I feel my point (or I guess Morrison's) still stands. While I think that it is lame for Morrison to be like "Wonder Woman kinda sucks anyways so I'm going to have her ride this dog and be evil for my big event book while Superman and Batman do important things" I think it would have been totally appropriate for Wonder Woman to just not have done much of anything special while Superman and/or Batman did important things. (Kinda like in CoIE.)

May 13, 2011 2:50:21 GMT -5 Phantom Stargrave said:

Bummer... They didn't even give her a chance.

As for her weight as character, I'm just gonna copy paste this analysis from MGK:

Mark Waid, guestblogging over at John Rogers’ pad, gets it right about the basic inner story of Thor. And then someone else adds in comments:

…the most perennially troubled titles are the ones that have been the most disconnected from their simple concept. Wonder Woman is the classic example. It was a title the was gender and power. That included sex, which is why it was slowly scrubbed of its original theme. Now, it is about nothing, which is why it gets re-booted every fifteen minutes.

This is of course correct, but “gender and power” is a very generic way of talking about what Wonder Woman’s core story is about. It is about a woman in a man’s world. You don’t need to focus on sex to write that story – Buffy the Vampire Slayer covered a lot of this ground and although Buffy had her share of romance and doin’ it, most of the time that ground was mostly secondary to her story as a whole, which was often about reconciling femininity with being a kick-ass hero who was also doomed, doomed, doomed.

Now, drop the “doomed” part and you’ve got Wonder Woman. Except Wonder Woman stories are never actually about that. Has “woman in a man’s world” even been mentioned once in Trinity, which – last I checked – is ostensibly about the ideas and motivations behind Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman? No, not at all – instead we get some vague blather about Diana being a “bringer of peace,” and so forth.

And, of course, let’s be honest: “woman in a man’s world” is a hard sell in comics. Most of the readership is male and most of the creators are male, and most of them are not particularly interested in reading feminist literature unless it is disguised in some way (cf. Buffy, which is also a genre television show; ditto Xena, Warrior Princess).

I’m not sure if this is because the idea of “woman in a man’s world” is so explicitly feminist, and that men are traditionally sort of crap at writing strong feminist narratives no matter how personally enlightened on the topic they might be. (Even Joss Whedon, the poster boy for men writing strong women, has been accused – and not unfairly – of fetishizing “strong women” rather than simply writing stories about women.) But it’s a good point to remember; after all, if you are a male writer, the odds that you will be comfortable writing about Diana’s experience as a woman in a male-dominated world (and more importantly, finding that male-dominated world to be odd or irregular or irrational or improper) are just going to be lower than the odds that you will be comfortable writing Diana as a relatively asexual being.

Even Gail Simone (and I’ve quite enjoyed Gail’s run on the book thus far) treats Diana’s sexuality with relative kid gloves. I’m glad to see her starting up a romance with Nemesis – who, incidentally, is a vast improvement over douchebag Steve Trevor, who should die in a swamp – but come on, said romance has been so tentative as to almost seem editorially mandated that all pains be taken to make sure Diana doesn’t come across as a slut or something. (Because when I think “asexual society,” I think the Amazons?)

Woman in a man’s world. It’s not rocket science. It’s not irrelevant to comics readers (much as some might wish otherwise). But it’s definitely edgier territory, and there’s a political aspect to it that a lot of comics fans might not appreciate.

Also, the invisible plane. What is up with that?

[Zoom]

May 13, 2011 16:04:25 GMT -5 Phantom Stargrave said:

Also, Nemesis is absolutely awesome... Outside of Wonder Woman comics.

Damn straight. Being relegated to the role of Wonder Woman's girlfriend is so lame I can't even express how much I hate it.