Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 18:18:18 GMT -5
Morpheus needs to start reading EU material again too.
Maybe he will when the Revan novel comes out.
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Post by Dane on Oct 17, 2011 18:26:03 GMT -5
Although I think Darth Bane would murderstomp Kenobi in a duel, I would have to agree Silver. Most of his feats are entirely or in part force-based. It'll be interesting to see how newer TOR characters like Darth Malgus measure up to other Sith Lords when we see more feats from them. Cool. That is the problem with Bane sometimes. While I do certainly think he is a skilled duelist, many of his fights have circumstantial factors in the purely lightsaber portion of them. I still need to read the TOR novels, but yes, it will be interesting. ckal: I will take a look at that later. I'm about 1/3rd through Deceived. I think it's great so far. Malgus is a boss but almost everyone he fights have only implied skill. But then again that whole time period has only just been introduced so it's hard to gauge anyone really. Revan will be *amazing* I'm sure. And I wouldn't literally go on a Japanese gameshow to make SWTOR come out faster.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 18:29:36 GMT -5
Andferne posted quotes on the Vine once from Deceived to show feats for Malgus. He seems powerful from what he showed me.
I have high hopes for Revan also, but my concern is as it always has been: Karpyshyn needs to develop his character. Revan was created as a blank character for a video game, which works fine in that setting, but a novel protagonist needs character depth. If Karpyshyn writes Revan the way he wrote Bane in Path of Destruction, where his past and decisions are contrasted with his present situation to help him grow, then I will be satisfied. But if he writes Revan the way he wrote Bane and Zannah in Rule of Two and Dynasty of Evil where their characters were reduced to simply "I want more power," then its quality will decline for me.
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Post by Dane on Oct 17, 2011 18:41:01 GMT -5
Yeah, but that is an inherent flaw in virtually all Sith characters, imo.
They're always ambitious to a stupid point. They seem to always believe 'power is it's own reward' as opposed to 'power for the sake of it is actually pointless'. That's why I liked Darth Caedus and Darth Revan to an extent. They really only wanted power as far as they could use it to prevent something much worse but ended up being corrupted by the 'means justifies the end' mindset/use of the darkside.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 18:43:03 GMT -5
Yes, but the difference is that most Sith are antagonists, not protagonists. A protagonist needs to have more character depth than that, which is why I liked Path of Destruction.
Vader and Tyranus are very good examples of this. Both have been protagonists in certain books and have good character depth. And even when they are antagonists, they are still more well developed than most Sith Lords.
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Post by Dane on Oct 17, 2011 18:49:54 GMT -5
Well yeah, I mean Jacen was a protagonist for 95% of his stories I guess. But I think a hero is only as good as his villain and I don't think it's an excuse for most Sith Lords to have such generic, paper-thin personalities. They should all have more driving them than "omg quest for unlimited powaaa". Revan especially since so much history is pinned on his actions. I agree it makes sense of him to be a blank canvas in a game and to my understanding they've tried to keep him ambiguous for most of his appearances outside KOTOR but to have a whole novel about him, that ambiguity just won't fly.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 19:11:32 GMT -5
Well, despite the relative simplicity and general similarity of their goals, their circumstances are not exactly the same. More than that, their views of the Force will heavily impact how they choose to regard themselves and the universe at large, and that can and will change their methods and goals in the long-run. For instance, Vader's purposes as a Sith Lord stem from his own guilt, self-hatred, and consignment to his current life. He lost everything because of his own actions, and he has nothing left to live for besides serving the Empire. So that is exactly what he does. Naga Sadow simply believed that the Sith Empire was stagnating, as it only had a few dominated worlds in a galaxy with millions of planets. It was not as much about him and his own aggrandizement as the Sith as a whole. For Freedon Nadd, he was only interested in his own benefit, and that was a result of the Jedi denying him the rank of Knight after he had left behind all traces of his old life and dedicated himself in the most absolute sense to Jedi teachings. When the Jedi did not grant him access to certain teachings, did not elevate him to the rank of Knight, and told him he had to learn certain aspects on his own, he perceived that as the Jedi withholding knowledge from him that would help him progress as a Jedi. Thus, he believed the Jedi way to be restrictive, and he searched out Sith powers to gain revenge for that, eventually ruling the planet Onderon. Palpatine believes himself to be the greatest symbol of authority and power. His own belief is that the will of the Force decides who will become powerful and who will become (what he considers to be) weak. Since he had such a strong connection to the Force, he believed himself to be the only rightful leader and face of authority and power over the weak, since, as he viewed it, the weak are inherently useless in all ways except to serve the strong and are actually detrimental to the strong if not held in check. As someone recently pointed out to me on the TOR forums, you should notice the correlation between Palpatine's statements and upholding of himself such as: "I am the senate," "I am the Empire," "I am the universe," "I am the dark side." These are not to be taken absolutely literally but are good implications of how he views himself in respects to other beings and in respects to what he believes the will of the Force is for himself. Because of that, he conquered the galaxy and planned to expand his Empire to other galaxies and eventually rule the universe forever through his immortality. Exar Kun simply had a darkness residing in him that he never learned to face, and he was unable to control himself as a Jedi because of this. When Freedon Nadd led him to study Sith teachings, his views grew until he decided to attempt to rule the galaxy. Tyranus believed that all beings are alone in the universe, and because of that, the Jedi teachings of altruistic care for all life seemed pointless. The reason he thought that all life is alone is because he was betrayed by a friend when he was still learning as a Jedi, and in that process, he was exposed to Sith teachings from a holocron. It was also because he contemplated the fact that parents basically abandon their children to the Jedi. He began to ideally drift from the Jedi and the Republic and finally left later on, after which he met Sidious and was inducted to the Sith Order (this point was really driven home in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous where Yoda asked him that between Sidious and himself, "Which one of us loves you better?").
They may all have comparable ends, but their own individual beliefs and reasons are not completely the same.
On that subject, when Plagueis novel is released, I thoroughly expect Luceno to grant Plagueis and Sidious a good amount of character development. If not, its quality will drop for me.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 19:46:54 GMT -5
Since I brought up Dooku's motives, this scene from Dark Rendezvous was very telling. --Taken from Yoda: Dark RendezvousLegacy of the Jedi, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, and Revenge of the Sith are great reads if you want to understand Dooku's character depth. Collectively, they give insight into his past, his motivations, his goals, his beliefs, his relationships. (Not to mention, YDR and RotS are two of the very best EU novels ever written.) Dooku has more character depth than I think people give him credit for, more than most other Sith Lords for that matter. The fact that he was played by Christopher Lee is just a bonus.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 22:17:44 GMT -5
Hmm. Forget that. The movies work with one another better than people give them credit for. Almost every one of the "plot holes" people complain about have been explained in one source or another. Yes, that may not be in direct correlation to the movies, but Lucas himself has acknowledged the fact that the SW universe is too large for it to only be told in six movies, which is why we have like six or seven dozen novels, plus numerous comics and sourcebooks. As for character development, character depth is harder to show on-screen than it is in a comic, where the narration is used to describe a character's thoughts and emotions in reaction to their circumstances and decisions, and in a novel, where the book describes absolutely everything. Overall, I just disagree with him.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 22:32:21 GMT -5
Just found out about this on TOR. There will be another Blood Ties series. www.darkhorse.com/Blog/679/dark-horse-announces-new-knight-errant-blood-tiesSounds great. I think we all know better than to believe that "dead" nonsense, but I love hearing about a new Boba comic. @morpheus & k4tz: ^^^This should make you two happy. Also, I have no link to this, but a couple days ago, I heard that Ostrander will be writing a new ongoing series about the Force Wars of Tython, 30,000 years before the movies. That is another series I want to read, because it basically marks the very beginning of the Jedi Order.
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Post by Prophet626 on Oct 17, 2011 22:48:32 GMT -5
Quick question, what would a Lightsaber do to bullets?
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Oct 18, 2011 0:39:56 GMT -5
Block them. In Dark Empire 2, Luke and Kam Solusar were able to block arrows with their lightsabers. In Secrets of the Jedi (IIRC), Qui-Gon blocked shrapnel with his lightsaber.
Lightsaber deflection is useful against energy but is also good against solid projectiles.
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Post by Admin on Oct 18, 2011 16:41:44 GMT -5
FETT LIVES ON IN MY HEART!
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Post by Dane on Oct 18, 2011 16:43:53 GMT -5
MY HEART WILL GO OOOON
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Post by Admin on Oct 18, 2011 16:47:23 GMT -5
Is it the same creative team?
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Oct 18, 2011 16:49:59 GMT -5
I wonder what the year will be for this. If this is supposed to be a sequel for Blood Ties, then I would assume it will be around the Rebellion era. If that is the case, maybe Sin will be the focus if the story is about his family avenging him. On the other hand, the talk of his family sounds like it might be picking up on LotF. If this is the Rebellion era, then obviously Boba is not dead, or at least not permanently. If this is the Legacy era, then maybe he is dead. :-\
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Oct 18, 2011 16:51:38 GMT -5
Is it the same creative team? The writer is at least. Tom Taylor wrote the first Blood Ties series and will apparently write the second one. Not sure about the artist though, but hopefully, it will be the same art.
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Post by Admin on Oct 18, 2011 16:56:09 GMT -5
Is it the same creative team? The writer is at least. Tom Taylor wrote the first Blood Ties series and will apparently write the second one. Not sure about the artist though, but hopefully, it will be the same art. I pray it's the same art team, too. That book was so enjoyable.
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Post by ckal on Oct 18, 2011 16:56:19 GMT -5
Plot holes/points being explained in other materials outside the movies is a poor excuse to back the movies, since most people don't care to read the extra sources. In fact, it is no excuse. This is about the movies themselves, not the universe in general. As movies, they are of far inferior quality than the first three movies, and I agree with him about not being a fan (except for #3).
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
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Post by Silver on Oct 18, 2011 17:05:22 GMT -5
Plot holes/points being explained in other materials outside the movies is a poor excuse to back the movies, since most people don't care to read the extra sources. In fact, it is no excuse. This is about the movies themselves, not the universe in general. As movies, they are of far inferior quality than the first three movies, and I agree with him about not being a fan (except for #3). All of this is entirely subjective to the preference of the viewer. And honestly, there are not that many plot holes in the movies. People usually complain about plot holes such as a walker falling in the Empire Strikes Back and a snow speeder shooting it, causing it to explode. In the context of the movies, this may not make sense since the walkers were too durable to be harmed by laser cannons. But so what? It hardly makes a difference in the matter of course throughout. That was explained outside for people who worry about it too much. Obi-Wan stated that Yoda was the master who trained him, and people came up in arms when it was shown that Qui-Gon was his master, when in fact this does not change his statement at all. Yoda was his master, as he was to every Jedi initiate. Yoda trained Obi-Wan before he was apprenticed to Qui-Gon. There are just details like that people carry over to the OT from the PT that really should make no difference at all. However, because people have such a problem with those, writers catch on to that and describe it for them elsewhere. The problem is that people overanalyze the movies, and yet, at the same time, overlook the details that make affirm its consistency. The writer is at least. Tom Taylor wrote the first Blood Ties series and will apparently write the second one. Not sure about the artist though, but hopefully, it will be the same art. I pray it's the same art team, too. That book was so enjoyable. I agree. Just too bad we have to wait till April for this.
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