JediXMan
Enhanced Ledger
2011; the year of the Sith
Posts: 578
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Post by JediXMan on Jul 12, 2011 20:43:24 GMT -5
I admit that it has some issues. But I do like the concept. But in the original concept, the alien slavers would have becoming slug-like due to a virus released by the slaves, becoming Hutts. In my idea, the slavers are the Rakata and the virus is the one that almost destroyed them and damaged their connection to the Force. And on a releated note: I still believe / hope / want the Celestials to be the Rakata. The Star Forge and Centerpoint are a bit similar. Fair enough. And the theory about the Rakata/Celestials is still a possibility, from where I stand. New discussion. Time for another verbose rant where I explain my point of view and allow you to make a commentary on it. Reading the Callista trilogy (I am only on the second book, Darksaber, despite having started the trilogy four or five days ago because I have been lazy with my reading, LOL), there is a Jedi in this series who was able to bond their ghost to a structure. Now, this was not Essence Transfer, because this was clearly a Jedi without sufficient knowledge to use a power that complicated even if they wanted to. This Jedi is able to connect their spirit to hosts or places if allowed and has thus remained on this structure for decades. From a certain angle, that reminded me of how Ulic Qel-Droma remained stationary in his tomb when Anakin entered to learn a resistance to Force Drain so that he could destroy the Dark Reaper (although I suppose it is debatable as to whether that was truly Ulic's ghost or just a hologram, but I always interpreted it as his spirit). Does this fit into continuity well anymore? Obviously, most Jedi who become one with the Force while still retaining their identities have chosen to appear in the physical realm to aid other Jedi if the time comes. Yoda and Obi-Wan have visited Luke after their deaths, and Anakin spoke to Leia as a ghost asking for her to forgive him. But generally, they simply speak a word of advice, like Arca Jeth did with Ulic. But this process of a Jedi spirit situating themselves with a particular place is unusual and even more for them to enter a body and live again. Now, it is not unheard of for Jedi to interact and counteract the physical in ways beside simple communication. Obi-Wan helped Luke fight Vader in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, and Vodo-Siosk Baas helped Luke's students banish Exar Kun's spirit. So, despite the fact that Jedi Force Ghosts are nowhere nearly as often seen performing tasks in a manner such as helping fight a battle or attack a tangible being as Sith Essences have, it has been done. However, my assumption is that Jedi spirits do not interact with the physical as much as Sith spirits do because they are not allowed/required to. Sith attach their spirits to another body or object or place to escape final death. Jedi have nothing to fear from death since, whether they become Force Ghosts or not, they still enter the Force. And as a result, with the insight and resources available to them while one with the Force, they know when they should and should not intervene on physical actions. Obi-Wan even told Luke that he could not interfere with his duel against Vader on Bespin before he left Dagobah. In spite of having aided him against Vader before, he could not do so again. Now, having explained all of that, what is your position on this? Is it simply that Jedi spirits can bond to a place or body as Sith spirits can and are simply not always "permitted" to by the Force (permitted is not the best word in this, but I have no idea how else to put it)? Or do you just think that events in the Callista books fail to compromise with continuity currently? I do not believe it is a matter of what the ghosts can or cannot do. More a matter of what they will or will not do. I interpreted that Obi-Wan wouldn't, not couldn't, help Luke fight Vader. But as for that incident, it sounds inconsistent with established canon. I'm not saying the entire series is non-canon, but perhaps it is a step above S-Canon. I'm very confident that that was Ulic's ghost, not his hologram. Though I'll never understand where the dark spirits around his tomb came from (that and they were hurt by cannon fire, but...) On a related note: how was Kyle Katarn's father a Force ghost on Ruusan? I will never understand that. By the way, Jedi, I know you are a Mandalorian/clone trooper/stormtrooper fan. So have you read Death Troopers? And if so, can you please tell me WTF that book is about? Seriously, it looks like a freaking splatter film. I know about it and haven't read it. I'm not really a horror fan. But this is the story as I remember it: Han and Chewbacca stumble upon a Star Destroyer where there is a plague that turns people into zombies. Least that's what I remember. Reminds me of SW: Vector. Reminds me a lot of Vector. I might read it down the line. But it's not a priority.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Jul 12, 2011 20:54:11 GMT -5
Fair enough. And the theory about the Rakata/Celestials is still a possibility, from where I stand. New discussion. Time for another verbose rant where I explain my point of view and allow you to make a commentary on it. Reading the Callista trilogy (I am only on the second book, Darksaber, despite having started the trilogy four or five days ago because I have been lazy with my reading, LOL), there is a Jedi in this series who was able to bond their ghost to a structure. Now, this was not Essence Transfer, because this was clearly a Jedi without sufficient knowledge to use a power that complicated even if they wanted to. This Jedi is able to connect their spirit to hosts or places if allowed and has thus remained on this structure for decades. From a certain angle, that reminded me of how Ulic Qel-Droma remained stationary in his tomb when Anakin entered to learn a resistance to Force Drain so that he could destroy the Dark Reaper (although I suppose it is debatable as to whether that was truly Ulic's ghost or just a hologram, but I always interpreted it as his spirit). Does this fit into continuity well anymore? Obviously, most Jedi who become one with the Force while still retaining their identities have chosen to appear in the physical realm to aid other Jedi if the time comes. Yoda and Obi-Wan have visited Luke after their deaths, and Anakin spoke to Leia as a ghost asking for her to forgive him. But generally, they simply speak a word of advice, like Arca Jeth did with Ulic. But this process of a Jedi spirit situating themselves with a particular place is unusual and even more for them to enter a body and live again. Now, it is not unheard of for Jedi to interact and counteract the physical in ways beside simple communication. Obi-Wan helped Luke fight Vader in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, and Vodo-Siosk Baas helped Luke's students banish Exar Kun's spirit. So, despite the fact that Jedi Force Ghosts are nowhere nearly as often seen performing tasks in a manner such as helping fight a battle or attack a tangible being as Sith Essences have, it has been done. However, my assumption is that Jedi spirits do not interact with the physical as much as Sith spirits do because they are not allowed/required to. Sith attach their spirits to another body or object or place to escape final death. Jedi have nothing to fear from death since, whether they become Force Ghosts or not, they still enter the Force. And as a result, with the insight and resources available to them while one with the Force, they know when they should and should not intervene on physical actions. Obi-Wan even told Luke that he could not interfere with his duel against Vader on Bespin before he left Dagobah. In spite of having aided him against Vader before, he could not do so again. Now, having explained all of that, what is your position on this? Is it simply that Jedi spirits can bond to a place or body as Sith spirits can and are simply not always "permitted" to by the Force (permitted is not the best word in this, but I have no idea how else to put it)? Or do you just think that events in the Callista books fail to compromise with continuity currently? I do not believe it is a matter of what the ghosts can or cannot do. More a matter of what they will or will not do. I interpreted that Obi-Wan wouldn't, not couldn't, help Luke fight Vader. But as for that incident, it sounds inconsistent with established canon. I'm not saying the entire series is non-canon, but perhaps it is a step above S-Canon. I'm very confident that that was Ulic's ghost, not his hologram. Though I'll never understand where the dark spirits around his tomb came from (that and they were hurt by cannon fire, but...) On a related note: how was Kyle Katarn's father a Force ghost on Ruusan? I will never understand that. No, the Callista trilogy is all still perfectly C-Canon. It has been referenced in other works and sourcebooks numerous times. Your theory about their choosing not to is interesting though. Although, in Bakura, I remember Anakin saying that he could not return to see Leia, and that if she decided not to forgive him when he visited her, he could still hear her if she chose to later. Really, it was not done in a way that was poorly written, in my opinion. Maybe Force Ghosts do have more options than is normally shown, but like I said, they simply have no reason to operate because of the wisdom and immortality offered them because of being one with the Force. Or, as you said, they simply choose not to. The situation in CotJ was a very extreme circumstance where the Jedi's spirit loved another character enough that they wanted to live again to be with them. When another character offered the Jedi their body as they were about to die, the Jedi accepted. I believe it was Ulic's ghost as well. No idea. I know about it and haven't read it. I'm not really a horror fan. But this is the story as I remember it: Han and Chewbacca stumble upon a Star Destroyer where there is a plague that turns people into zombies. Least that's what I remember. Reminds me of SW: Vector. Reminds me a lot of Vector. I might read it down the line. But it's not a priority. I personally like horror as a genre, just not horror movies, only horror books. But in my opinion, horror + Star Wars is just not a good idea. Never read Vector, but thanks for the info. DT sounds like a strange book.
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JediXMan
Enhanced Ledger
2011; the year of the Sith
Posts: 578
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Post by JediXMan on Jul 12, 2011 22:05:53 GMT -5
I do not believe it is a matter of what the ghosts can or cannot do. More a matter of what they will or will not do. I interpreted that Obi-Wan wouldn't, not couldn't, help Luke fight Vader. But as for that incident, it sounds inconsistent with established canon. I'm not saying the entire series is non-canon, but perhaps it is a step above S-Canon. I'm very confident that that was Ulic's ghost, not his hologram. Though I'll never understand where the dark spirits around his tomb came from (that and they were hurt by cannon fire, but...) On a related note: how was Kyle Katarn's father a Force ghost on Ruusan? I will never understand that. No, the Callista trilogy is all still perfectly C-Canon. It has been referenced in other works and sourcebooks numerous times. Your theory about their choosing not to is interesting though. Although, in Bakura, I remember Anakin saying that he could not return to see Leia, and that if she decided not to forgive him when he visited her, he could still hear her if she chose to later. Really, it was not done in a way that was poorly written, in my opinion. Maybe Force Ghosts do have more options than is normally shown, but like I said, they simply have no reason to operate because of the wisdom and immortality offered them because of being one with the Force. Or, as you said, they simply choose not to. The situation in CotJ was a very extreme circumstance where the Jedi's spirit loved another character enough that they wanted to live again to be with them. When another character offered the Jedi their body as they were about to die, the Jedi accepted. I believe it was Ulic's ghost as well. No idea. I know it's C-Canon. But I'm saying that, if it truly is a contradiction, it could become S. Overall, Force Ghosts are very vague. The "rules" set on them are vague. But Luke's spirit was rather free. He seemed to have more power as a ghost than more Jedi. I know about it and haven't read it. I'm not really a horror fan. But this is the story as I remember it: Han and Chewbacca stumble upon a Star Destroyer where there is a plague that turns people into zombies. Least that's what I remember. Reminds me of SW: Vector. Reminds me a lot of Vector. I might read it down the line. But it's not a priority. I personally like horror as a genre, just not horror movies, only horror books. But in my opinion, horror + Star Wars is just not a good idea. Never read Vector, but thanks for the info. DT sounds like a strange book. My exposure to horror books is limited, I must confess. I just never got the taste for horror movies. Though I did enjoy Psycho and Six Sense (though the latter is more of a thriller). You didn't read Vector? I thought you followed KOTOR, Legacy, etc?
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Jul 12, 2011 22:36:56 GMT -5
I know it's C-Canon. But I'm saying that, if it truly is a contradiction, it could become S. Overall, Force Ghosts are very vague. The "rules" set on them are vague. But Luke's spirit was rather free. He seemed to have more power as a ghost than more Jedi. I think the only contradictions in the Callista trilogy relate to how it represented Jedi's views on marriage. This is true. Force Ghosts may have numerous abilities we have never seen before. Like Sith spirits, their interaction with the physical can be infrequent. My exposure to horror books is limited, I must confess. I just never got the taste for horror movies. Though I did enjoy Psycho and Six Sense (though the latter is more of a thriller). You didn't read Vector? I thought you followed KOTOR, Legacy, etc? I like E. A. Poe and Richard Matheson, personally. No. Just never got around to it.
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JediXMan
Enhanced Ledger
2011; the year of the Sith
Posts: 578
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Post by JediXMan on Jul 12, 2011 23:29:55 GMT -5
I know it's C-Canon. But I'm saying that, if it truly is a contradiction, it could become S. Overall, Force Ghosts are very vague. The "rules" set on them are vague. But Luke's spirit was rather free. He seemed to have more power as a ghost than more Jedi. I think the only contradictions in the Callista trilogy relate to how it represented Jedi's views on marriage. This is true. Force Ghosts may have numerous abilities we have never seen before. Like Sith spirits, their interaction with the physical can be infrequent. My exposure to horror books is limited, I must confess. I just never got the taste for horror movies. Though I did enjoy Psycho and Six Sense (though the latter is more of a thriller). You didn't read Vector? I thought you followed KOTOR, Legacy, etc? I like E. A. Poe and Richard Matheson, personally. No. Just never got around to it. I like Poe. Just never quite labeled him as "horror." Vector was okay, but in my opinion it takes away from KOTOR in that it makes the Rakghoul plague into a creation of Sith Alchemy. But you should read it, if only because it mentions the hundred-year darkness and the ancient Sith, which was my favorite part. Also... *ahem*
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Geraldthesloth
Team Buster Ledger
The Exterminating Angel
Posts: 1,447
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Post by Geraldthesloth on Jul 12, 2011 23:33:19 GMT -5
I hate Sidious so much :x That's one of the few Star Wars characters I hate seeing.
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JediXMan
Enhanced Ledger
2011; the year of the Sith
Posts: 578
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Post by JediXMan on Jul 12, 2011 23:34:54 GMT -5
Why?
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Geraldthesloth
Team Buster Ledger
The Exterminating Angel
Posts: 1,447
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Post by Geraldthesloth on Jul 13, 2011 0:15:18 GMT -5
I just feel like he's a frequent annoying figure. He's like what Norman Osborn was with HAMMER.
but you know..a Sith version.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Jul 13, 2011 0:58:07 GMT -5
I like Poe. Just never quite labeled him as "horror." Vector was okay, but in my opinion it takes away from KOTOR in that it makes the Rakghoul plague into a creation of Sith Alchemy. But you should read it, if only because it mentions the hundred-year darkness and the ancient Sith, which was my favorite part. Alright. Interesting. I will read that when I come around to it. Also... *ahem* Awesome. Exalted just for posting that.
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JediXMan
Enhanced Ledger
2011; the year of the Sith
Posts: 578
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Post by JediXMan on Jul 13, 2011 1:01:22 GMT -5
I like Poe. Just never quite labeled him as "horror." Vector was okay, but in my opinion it takes away from KOTOR in that it makes the Rakghoul plague into a creation of Sith Alchemy. But you should read it, if only because it mentions the hundred-year darkness and the ancient Sith, which was my favorite part. Alright. Interesting. I will read that when I come around to it. Also... *ahem* Awesome. Exalted just for posting that. Nice, right? I can't wait for this book now. Not that I wasn't excited before, but.... wow.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Jul 13, 2011 1:05:27 GMT -5
Nice, right? I can't wait for this book now. Not that I wasn't excited before, but.... wow. Same here. And again, this is Luceno. The guy is as well-received as EU authors like Zahn, Stackpole, and Stover. I have high hopes for this book. From what I heard based on premises described on Wookieepedia, the novel will portray a search for immortality by Darth Plagueis and Qui-Gon Jinn and contrast their discoveries. Do you know what the release date is for this?
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JediXMan
Enhanced Ledger
2011; the year of the Sith
Posts: 578
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Post by JediXMan on Jul 13, 2011 2:22:27 GMT -5
Nice, right? I can't wait for this book now. Not that I wasn't excited before, but.... wow. Same here. And again, this is Luceno. The guy is as well-received as EU authors like Zahn, Stackpole, and Stover. I have high hopes for this book. From what I heard based on premises described on Wookieepedia, the novel will portray a search for immortality by Darth Plagueis and Qui-Gon Jinn and contrast their discoveries. Do you know what the release date is for this? Indeed. I have high hopes, as well. I had hoped it would be in Palpatine's perspective; perhaps it will be partially, like how the Darth Bane books had segments told from Zannah's perspective, then Bane's, and then specific Jedi's perspectives. Comes out December 27th of 2011. Can't wait! ;D
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Jul 13, 2011 8:10:02 GMT -5
Same here. And again, this is Luceno. The guy is as well-received as EU authors like Zahn, Stackpole, and Stover. I have high hopes for this book. From what I heard based on premises described on Wookieepedia, the novel will portray a search for immortality by Darth Plagueis and Qui-Gon Jinn and contrast their discoveries. Do you know what the release date is for this? Indeed. I have high hopes, as well. I had hoped it would be in Palpatine's perspective; perhaps it will be partially, like how the Darth Bane books had segments told from Zannah's perspective, then Bane's, and then specific Jedi's perspectives. Comes out December 27th of 2011. Can't wait! ;D It would be cool to see it from Sidious' perspective, but I hope at least a good portion of it is from Plagueis' and Qui-Gon's perspective. Thanks. I wonder when the paperback will be released though. I usually prefer paperbacks.
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JediXMan
Enhanced Ledger
2011; the year of the Sith
Posts: 578
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Post by JediXMan on Jul 13, 2011 19:17:22 GMT -5
Indeed. I have high hopes, as well. I had hoped it would be in Palpatine's perspective; perhaps it will be partially, like how the Darth Bane books had segments told from Zannah's perspective, then Bane's, and then specific Jedi's perspectives. Comes out December 27th of 2011. Can't wait! ;D It would be cool to see it from Sidious' perspective, but I hope at least a good portion of it is from Plagueis' and Qui-Gon's perspective. Thanks. I wonder when the paperback will be released though. I usually prefer paperbacks. I think it should have some parts from Palpatine's perspective. I wonder if it will show when Palpatine was discovered by Plagueis, or if it will begin after he became Plagueis' apprentice. So do I, but I'm not waiting. Hey, the Revan novel is supposed to come out in November. I wonder when we'll see the cover for that?
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Post by Admin on Jul 13, 2011 19:26:01 GMT -5
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JediXMan
Enhanced Ledger
2011; the year of the Sith
Posts: 578
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Post by JediXMan on Jul 13, 2011 19:29:41 GMT -5
Yes, it has both of their origin stories.
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Post by Admin on Jul 13, 2011 19:38:09 GMT -5
Awesome, thanks.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Jul 13, 2011 20:47:19 GMT -5
It would be cool to see it from Sidious' perspective, but I hope at least a good portion of it is from Plagueis' and Qui-Gon's perspective. Thanks. I wonder when the paperback will be released though. I usually prefer paperbacks. I think it should have some parts from Palpatine's perspective. I wonder if it will show when Palpatine was discovered by Plagueis, or if it will begin after he became Plagueis' apprentice. So do I, but I'm not waiting. Hey, the Revan novel is supposed to come out in November. I wonder when we'll see the cover for that? I wonder about that too. One other thing I would also be interested in is if the book named Plagueis' master. Chances are, I will read it before the paperback is released, but I might just find it at a library instead of buying it from the start. I usually buy Star Wars books before I read them (I just recently bought five more novels), but like I said, paperbacks are preferable. This should generate discussion: Have you ever read The Crystal Star?
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JediXMan
Enhanced Ledger
2011; the year of the Sith
Posts: 578
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Post by JediXMan on Jul 14, 2011 18:22:12 GMT -5
I think it should have some parts from Palpatine's perspective. I wonder if it will show when Palpatine was discovered by Plagueis, or if it will begin after he became Plagueis' apprentice. So do I, but I'm not waiting. Hey, the Revan novel is supposed to come out in November. I wonder when we'll see the cover for that? I wonder about that too. One other thing I would also be interested in is if the book named Plagueis' master. Chances are, I will read it before the paperback is released, but I might just find it at a library instead of buying it from the start. I usually buy Star Wars books before I read them (I just recently bought five more novels), but like I said, paperbacks are preferable. This should generate discussion: Have you ever read The Crystal Star? I don't know if we really need Plagueis' master. It could be interesting, but I, personally, do not care. I am much more interested in Plagueis, Palpatine, and Revan right now. I admit: it would certainly look out of place amongst all of my paperbacks. I only have a few hardcovers. One of which is a hard cover of the Last Command. It was for a really good price, and my paperback was horribly, horribly ruined (my fault; I was reading it in a building and it was raining outside. I covered it with my jacket as I walked to the car, and it slipped and.... yeah....). But I am definitely getting the hardcover for Plagueis and Revan. They'll look nice and I can't wait for a paperback this time. Though for most series, I like to keep them all with the same type (though, as stated, the Thrawn Trilogy is mismatched...) The Crystal Star is a novel I have always wanted to read but never got the chance. Kinda like the Courtship of Princess Leia. Hey, let me ask you: should I read the Dark Nest trilogy? Story kind of intrigues me, it's referenced in Legacy of the Force, and it's rather significant for Jacen Solo; on the other hand.... Troy Denning is the writer and you know full well how I feel about him. Quinlan VosHow skilled was he? "Meh." He is "meh" as far as Jedi go. His best feat was that he knows a tiny bit of Vaapad, but never really did much with it other than surprise Windu during practice and earn himself a lecture about using a move that Mace apparently has copyrighted.
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