Galactic Showdown! Danebolt Vs. Dark Nebula

[ThaMessenger07]

A cosmic abstract has formulated a battle of some of the greatest warriors, with the greatest powers he has seen. The Battle field is a massive planet arena. The terrain is a neutral environment, there are small bodies of water, a jungle/forest environment, large sophisticated structures and weather shifts frequently. The battle ends when one Combatant can not fight anymore or until absolute death. Can your warrior overcome this test of power?

Each Debater was requested to create a Hero based on the Guidelines in the Galactic Powerhouse thread, you can find Here>thecomicsledger.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=battles&thread=3754&page=1

[glow=red,2,300]Feats of the Character listed under the power/ability are your Way of Debate. An example is if you choose Superman level Strength, then Superman, mainstream Continuity, before the 52 is your source for Feats to display your own Warriors Strength. All character will be referenced to there mainstream continuity levels (No PC, 52 or Alternate Earth unless listed Otherwise). The Weapon is added for fun but range, material, and added power, if any is to be taken into consideration.
[/glow]



Deanbolt (Dean)

Fighting Skill = Namor
Strength = Superman Prime
Durability = Black Adam
Combat/Reaction Speed = Silver Surfer
Travel = Flight Mach 18 MAX
Weapon: Ebony Blade
Projectile Powers: Cosmic = Silver Surfer, Telepathy and Telekinesis = Jean Grey

Dark Nebula (Beatboks)

Fighting skill = Wonder Woman
Strength = Superman
durability endurance = Captain Marvel
Combat/Reaction Speed = Wonder Woman
Flight Mach 18 MAX
Running Mach 20 + 50 Foot leap
TP and TK = Jean Grey (No DP or WOCP)
Pyrokinisis = Human Torch (Johnny Storm)


Any Questions in Regards to Details and way of Debate please Post first so we can go over ahead of time. Good luck and Have fun!

[Beatboks]

Hmmm this should be interesting indead. Clealry I'm at a disadvantage in the strength department but vast superiority in combat ability/ skill and and speed should makeup for this short fall. I also have enough of an advantage in combat reaction speed (remember it's the characters reaction speed, reflex we get and Surfer is no match for WW in reaction while he might be faster i chose speed as one of my two transport powers as well as the same flight that Dane took) which should counter the slight energy projection disadvantage I'm at (Johnny storms flame to Surfer cosmic ).

With my combat skill travel speed and combat and reaction speed it should be possible for me to take the ebony blade from my opponent. My combat ability and speed will allow me to use my enemies strength advantage against him to gain the win. Especially since one I obtain it (the Ebony Blade) I have the greater skill to put it to use.

React this easily to light blast (Amazos heat vision which travels at the speed of light)
www.comicvine.com/wonder-woman/29-2048/all-images/108-217010/amazo_s_heat_vision_still/105-1929612/


www.comicvine.com/wonder-woman/29-2048/all-images/108-217010/vs_ninjas/105-1943028/

[Dane]

GL HF Beatboks

On Topic:
Well I don't see any evidence that WW is faster than Silver Surfer. The Surfer can travel easily many times faster than light. Nor do I see any advantage that would reasonably allow you to to disarm me.

Furthermore, I think Silver Surfer's Power Cosmic would completely wreck Johnny Storm's Pyrokinesis and negative pretty much all of his advantages. What is stopping me from shrinking down to the size of an atom and using the Ebony Blade on your brain-stem?

Also I think you're at a disadvantage with WW's fighting skill. She often attacks with grapples and overpowers people with her physical strength. You never see her put down someone like Superman with superior fighting skill, despite apparently possessing it. My strength is several orders of magnitude above yours, so I find it very hard to believe you could physically overpower me and take my weapon away from me.

It's a nice opening post. But I think my character would beat yours senseless in h2h, destroy them utterly with energy manipulation and has a sword that can cut through anything. As simple as it may sound, taking that away from me when you could never, ever break my grip is not feasible.

Also, it should be noted that with the Power Cosmic I would also have Cosmic Awareness. Meaning I would know what your powers are right away and you wouldn't know anything about me that couldn't be discerned from appearance alone.

Scans

Silver Surfer travelling "half a million lightyears" in a few seconds.
Scan 1
Scan 2

SS dodges dozens of lasers from enemy spaceships and destroys them all.
Scan 1

SS flies through a crazy asteroid field. Quasar says he can't maneuver as well as Norrin.
Scan 1

SS uses Cosmic Awareness to discern a creatures race and powers.
Scan 1

[Beatboks]

And the battle begins ;D
May the best man (*cough*) win *breaths knuckles*
Good luck

1. It's the reaction speed not travel speed per say that we get in that "purchase", a very distinct difference . Surfer's "reaction" is insufficient to deal with the speed of Thor and the reason he's suffered losses to the Thunder God. Since the scan I linked shows WW reacting to and deflecting Amazo's heat vision, this is multiple (shes deflecting many ) light speed (as the heat vision is) blasts aimed and fired by a Super SUPER fast (flash and Superman's and WW's speed amongst others) my scans shows combat speed VASTLY greater than anything that Surfer can match.. So taking that into consideration, . The difference I mentioned in "reaction speed" is the same "several orders of magnitude" that you have in strength. Surfer is fast but not combat fast that's the telling difference. WW is the only one in DC who has matched the Flash in foot speed so she is as fast but her "reaction speed" is much greater than her travel speed, as has been demonstrated many times.

2. With the durability/stamina of Cap Marvel I'll take the blast, as for shrinking i would have thought that "outside" the purview of the gained power. We gain the energy manipulation (which states includes the clairvoyance). Size changing imo would be outside the energy projection ability of the power.

3. Sorry but that's not cutting it. Our character is a composite, we gain the skill not necessarily the way that the character applies it. Characters traits (Like Dianna's warriors pride)don't come into play here. There are plenty of incidences where she uses throws reminiscent of judo or roman greco wrestling. Against Superwoman for example and Ares, and many more. That's using the strength of your opponent against them. She can easily dodge the blade and has also used pressure points before which once having dodged or better yet used the very techniques id just described to turn you sword strike into a blow where your own sword removes your leg (the pain of which ad reaction achieves the same thing as the verve strike) to gain the sword.

4. I forgot to ask about the conditions etc (too late now), but you forget both our TP. You maybe able to resist but I'll likely have some knowledge of what I'm facing. Jeans TP is pretty high, so unless where in a completely desolate segregated universe there will be someone in range with at least some awareness of what I'm facing to at least get a clue. Even if not I wont stand waiting to be hit, I'm going to dodge (which I've already show I will easily), and I'm therefore going to feel the force (in a sense) of the blow passing me to know enough to take greater care. You lack the sufficient speed to be able to get a clean first strike, which is what would be required to beat me senseless. Without first getting me on the back foot, your not getting around my combat speed advantage.

[Dane]

1. I would really, really love scans of Wonder Woman matching the Flash.

Some of my scans are of Silver Surfer's travel speed some are of him using speed to dodge multiple lightspeed projectiles simultaneously. It's exactly the same as the feat you posted so you can't use that to say WW is faster. Silver Surfer has the same kind of feat. He's dodging things travelling at the same speed.

If anything, his feat is better because he his moving his whole body out of the way. WW is only moving her arms in tightly controlled arcs. It's actually not that much better than street levelers blocking bullets with melee weapons like Daredevil does. Only the projectiles are moving faster than bullets so she is logically moving her hands faster. But what good is that if I can move my whole body out of the way?

2. To my mind, it said I gained the Power Cosmic. If that's limited to only projecting it as an energy beam then so be it, but that would make the Power Cosmic the same as standard energy projection like Cyclops or Vulcan.

3. Using grappling techniques doesn't imply a moral character trait. It stipulates that Dianna is best at fighting that way. You gained her fighting skill, so if you want to make any passable reference toward performing an action then it has to be something she has already done. I'm honestly yet to see Wonder Woman disarm someone of Superman Prime's physical stats. Your position that WW is as fast or faster than Silver Surfer/Superman tier characters isn't washing with me. I don't think you have the speed advantage at all and you're massively overbloating Dianna's skill in melee combat.

4. We both have the same level of TP/TK. I really don't understand what you mean by you ripping knowledge from my mind. If I have the exact same mental abilities why would I let you take it.

My Points:

I'm all for aggressive debating but I can't tell if you're being serious with some of these claims. Do you actually believe what you're saying? It seems a touch exaggerated, sir.

How can you possibly say Silver Surfer's travel speed is different to his reaction speed?

Here is why I think you can't:
-He is always on his board. This isn't the Hulk or WW, he doesn't stand on the ground and punch things. He's the Silver Surfer, he flies around on a board. Unless you have scans of him standing on the ground fighting and getting manhandled by a slow characters that doesn't make any sense. He always has the potential to travel at FTL speeds because he is always on his board and he can fight at those speeds.

-If he could fly substantially faster than he can react, what you're suggesting in the order of millions if not billions of times faster, he would fly straight into planets or stars and destroy them.

-He can travel at the same speed without his board (I have scans if you really want), so what do you think is harder? Moving your whole body or just moving your hands? He can do both, but I don't see why you'd think he can do one and not the other.

On WW's supposedly cosmic-batshit speed:

-If she consistently fights in melee at FTL speeds then why does she have tough fights with characters that blatantly aren't anything close to that speed?

There may be scans of her blocking stuff but she doesn't constantly fight FTL. And I know for a fact, and have scans to prove, that she isn't anywhere near as fast as The Flash. I don't even know why you'd say that.

[Beatboks]

Oct 14, 2011 0:17:22 GMT -5 Dane said:

1. I would really, really love scans of Wonder Woman matching the Flash.

4. We both have the same level of TP/TK. I really don't understand what you mean by you ripping knowledge from my mind. If I have the exact same mental abilities why would I let you take it.

Which is why I said you'd have resistance. I wasn't meaning a scan of you, I meant that if we weren't completely isolated there would have to be someone within TP range with some knowledge of you levels that I could "touch" on.

3. Using grappling techniques doesn't imply a moral character trait. It stipulates that Dianna is best at fighting that way. You gained her fighting skill, so if you want to make any passable reference toward performing an action then it has to be something she has already done. I'm honestly yet to see Wonder Woman disarm someone of Superman Prime's physical stats. Your position that WW is as fast or faster than Silver Surfer/Superman tier characters isn't washing with me. I don't think you have the speed advantage at all and you're massively overbloating Dianna's skill in melee combat.

Dianna doesn't use just grappling techniques as you say which is my point. She had one years training from I-Ching in Vol 1 post COIE and has a vast array of skills that most underrate. She uses the grappling style against equal level fighters for much the same reason Thor doesn't use the full power of Mjilnor their warrior nature likes the fight.

img560.imageshack.us/img560/1497/wwv3i2.png
img805.imageshack.us/img805/1300/iching.jpg
img443.imageshack.us/img443/1605/iching2i.gif
img853.imageshack.us/img853/7815/bop6810.jpg
img710.imageshack.us/img710/5052/meleea.jpg

No Grappling here
img825.imageshack.us/img825/3390/w13tr.jpg

So you a sorely underestimating her fighting skill. She uses actual martial art skill a lot more than using the poor techniques you've described. TBH usually they are only plot so that she looses to or doesn't humiliate the other.

As for speed the scan I showed is better than you believe. those beams are from Amazo, there are clearly MANY of them which since Amazo as i said has the combined speed of Falsh, Supes, WW, MM, etc could mean that he'd fired 100's from a different trajectory within a micronano second.
And there's this

When sparring with the powered up version of Cheetah who troubled Wally
img844.imageshack.us/img844/8458/villainspar.jpg
img338.imageshack.us/img338/8381/fasterthansuperman.jpg

Looking for the comparison scans to Flash and Other speedsters now

Oh and I'm not exaggerating, I'm just not underestimating.

[Beatboks]

Oh one last thing I forgot to point out.
Your scan of Surfer has him dodging a few (at best) lasers fired football fields apart (at best) while he was already moving. Mine has Dianna blocking (in that panel ) 6 fired directly at her. Since she was also blocking those around her (quite a few more) to protect Black Lightning had others behind her, it's a much more impressive feat. Think of yourself in a foot race if you have to turn to avoid something ( already have quite the momentum) and compare that to moving your arms from stationary in small arcs around your body. Tell me honestly which is harder?

[Dane]

So, some golden age scans of her doing a Karate Kid montage and her tagging Black Canary?

I should probably just surrender now.

"As for speed the scan I showed is better than you believe. those beams are from Amazo, there are clearly MANY of them which since Amazo as i said has the combined speed of Falsh, Supes, WW, MM, etc could mean that he'd fired 100's from a different trajectory within a micronano second."

Well that's complete conjecture. From the picture we can tell there is, at best, a dozen or so. All fired from the same location. Also, "a micronano second" is not an actual unit of measurement.

Cheetah is a WW villain. I'm not surprised she has tagged her once. Also, when Cheetah fought Wally wasn't she empowered to some extent off memory?

The comment to Superman is valid. Like I said, moving your hands is easier than moving your whole body. Silver Surfer isn't a trained martial artist but at the same time, it's not his fighting skills I'm using. It's his speed, which is FTL across the board whether you like it or not. Namor might not be Iron Fist but he's also not retarded. His speed is nothing special and he's trounced Wolverine without taking a hit. Something much faster enemies have not.

Frankly, when you're comparing Superman and Wonder Woman, I can see your point. Martial Artists practice katas or patterns routinely to help build unconscious movement. That is a fair thing. But at the same time you have to see what I'm saying:

Superman isn't faster than Silver Surfer. And not just over cosmic wormhole travel distances. Superman doesn't break the lightspeed barrier within Earth's atmosphere. He's stated that on panel. There is no reason why, with the Surfer's reaction speed and Cosmic Awareness (actually pretty underrated ability to have in a fight) on some nameless planet I couldn't break the lightspeed barrier into tiny little giblets. Or, even worse for you, just fly into space where 'using my strength against me' is frankly meaningless due to the lack of gravity.

Why would I even let you get near me? The Power Cosmic could be used to erect a force-field you could never break. Silver Surfer has used his blasting power to take down beings as durable as Captain Marvel or better before. Why wouldn't I use my insanely obvious advantages?

I'm not saying your character doesn't have a fighting skill advantage. Wonder Woman has used her skill to make up for slight speed/strength differences before against opponents like Power Girl. But she has never taken down someone as strong as Superman Prime or who could dish out the kind of energy blasts Silver Surfer can. You may say Captain Marvel can tank those hits, I say otherwise. That is pretty much top of the pile.

[Beatboks]

Firstly the scans aren't Golden Age ( I can put some in if you like to show you) but the look is completely different, they are Bronze age and completely canon post COIE as they've been referred to. I'm still looking for her fight with Super Woman (who's a lot stronger than her because she's stronger than Superman)

And as for speed here's just her running speed, which like Superman is much less than her flight speed (since she's faster than Supes)
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/all-images/108-52364/dianna_race_flash/105-2043057/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/all-images/108-52364/dianna_and_jesse_quick/105-2043056/

It's not conjecture. You will admit I'm sure that Surfer is already at speed in the scan you gave before he "dodges" anything. When your running to dodge something is a slight movement to alter your existing momentum. Have you ever rode a bike without hands, you rolling along at say 30 Km/hr to turn a corner all you have to do is lead your body weight lightly to alter you momentum and make a considerable change in course. The change made by small movements at the types of velocities in your scan are even more dramatic. It's really not a great feat. Now try and pretend to block bullets in front of you with your arms, it's actually quite strenuous and difficult and not easy to control such short sharp motions.

Yes she was empowered, that scan was from the same empowered period (and again against a faster opponent no grappling)

In the void without gravity the rules of inertia still hold sway, so the laws of leverage are just as valid if not more. You attack with all the force of your strength and as the momentum of such is then redirected you fly light years before you regain control. I just won through BFR (LOL obviously joking).

Superman has travelled to the edge of the known universe (stopped by Spectre) in canon. That's a lot further in less time than Surfer so yes he is. WW is faster than Supes (in flight also). Not that any of it matters. As I said it's all about reaction speed not travel speed. If it wasn't why are we limited with our "travel" purchase to Mack 18 for flight (if you already have more) and (in my case) Mach 20 for running (see faster ).

OK you've got a force field. I have the stamina of Altas and endurance of Archiles so no attack you have other than a blow (since blasts aren't going to do much) is going to get you the win. In order win this your going to have to come out and play some time

Messenger AWESOME thread idea. This is already the best debate i've had in ages.

[Dane]

Yeah, sorry but Wonder Woman isn't even close to being as fast as The Flash. And you didn't even get her running speed to begin with so I'm not sure why you're posting her running alongside The Flash.

"It's not conjecture. You will admit I'm sure that Surfer is already at speed in the scan you gave before he "dodges" anything. When your running to dodge something is a slight movement to alter your existing momentum. Have you ever rode a bike without hands, you rolling along at say 30 Km/hr to turn a corner all you have to do is lead your body weight lightly to alter you momentum and make a considerable change in course. The change made by small movements at the types of velocities in your scan are even more dramatic. It's really not a great feat. Now try and pretend to block bullets in front of you with your arms, it's actually quite strenuous and difficult and not easy to control such short sharp motions."

It's conjecture because you made up the 100s of lasers thing. In your own head, made it up. That's conjecture.

You're asking me to 'try to block bullets' with my own actual hands and saying it's hard on my body. Then saying flying through space, unaided is not much of a feat. What do you think is harder? waving yours hands around in front of you or not dying in the vaccuum of space? I expect better.

"In the void without gravity the rules of inertia still hold sway, so the laws of leverage are just as valid if not more. You attack with all the force of your strength and as the momentum of such is then redirected you fly light years before you regain control. I just won through BFR (LOL obviously joking)."

Alternatively, since you're traveling at the same exact same speed (Mach 18 max) you get your face punched inside out by a character hundreds of times stronger. How can you dodge when we're traveling at the same speed? 99% of avoiding hits in martial arts is based on footwork. The second your feet leave the ground your fighting skills go down the toilet.

You can't dodge, blocking will shatter your arms, getting punched will result in death. Your call.

"Superman has travelled to the edge of the known universe (stopped by Spectre) in canon. That's a lot further in less time than Surfer so yes he is. WW is faster than Supes (in flight also). Not that any of it matters. As I said it's all about reaction speed not travel speed. If it wasn't why are we limited with our "travel" purchase to Mack 18 for flight (if you already have more) and (in my case) Mach 20 for running (see faster )."

So travelling 200kms in 5 years is faster than travelling 20kms in 5 seconds? Strong logic.

Wonder Woman states on panel in your own scans that Superman has more raw speed. I don't know if you believe what you're saying but don't come at me with this WW is faster than Superman and Flash garbage. It's been stated so many times on panel that she isn't. I don't know why you're taking this route but outright lying isn't a good debating style.

"OK you've got a force field. I have the stamina of Altas and endurance of Archiles so no attack you have other than a blow (since blasts aren't going to do much) is going to get you the win. In order win this your going to have to come out and play some time"

I think my Black Adam stats give me exactly the same level of stamina and endurance. So, sort of a stalemate there.

I'll post up some Silver Surfer blast power feats. He's kind of top tier.

[Beatboks]

So if I didn't get her running speed (as I selected her reaction speed) than you have accepted that you don't have Surfers travel speed, we both have only their speed of reaction. Which is to my advantage considerably.

It's not conjecture. the fact that you refer to only a small excerpt of the overall statement takes it out of context. I clearly said could and also clearly said she deflected 6 as opposed to Surfer Dodging two. Are you seriously trying to say that someone with the combined Speed of Flash, Superman, WW, and MM couldn't fire from 100's of different directions (places of origin) in a nanosecond (or fraction there of) your deluding yourself, that isn't conjecture.

lets simplify it as much as possible. Lets say your driving a car at speed to change direction by meters requires to move you hand an inch or two. Simlarly for Surfer to change course in a major way would be him leaning slightly in a direction (like I said with the bike a slight lean in weight can make a bicycle turn 90 degrees in about 3 to 4 meters or 20 seconds). when you apply that same thing to sufing a board through space a mere lean or a cm at light speed could be 90 degree turn in a nanosecond or less. The scan I showed has Dianna moving her hands from her waist to her shoulders (upward of 12 14 inches), so moving much more to react to more of the same speed. There also the difference of relativity at play. Surfer is moving so all motion is relative to him, ever experienced driving at high speed against slower vehicles or into a slower speed zone. Everything seems slower than you giving you more reaction time. So while Surfer is reacting to light speed things from a light speed frame of reference, at which the slightest move results in a large change in movement. Dianna is reacting from a stationary frame of reference to more light speed things (Surfer dodged 2 or 3 Dianna blocked 6 (in a one scan image frame of reference). In that scan Surfer is reacting to something moving at best the same speed or slightly faster than him, just like a driver reacting to a car on the road a little faster (I do it all the time it's a pretty lame feat, I'm sure you do too can either of us deflect a bullet ). As Diana is stationary she's reacting to something that in a relativistic frame of reference is SOOOOOO much better. It's not conjecture it's scientific fact. Since we both only have their REACTION speed and not their travel speed (in which we are even / I have a slight advantage on the ground where i run at mach 20)) I do have a distinct advantage. So basically she has to move further to react to something much much faster (from her frame of reference) compared to him moving very little to react to something that is at best a little faster(again due to relativity).

your only looking at one aspect of momentum - the speed. Your strength is much greater than mine. I well conceded that in my first post. But the force that results from a full force punch has an equivalent mass (M=FxA) momentum = mass times velocity. With the force of your much greater punches having such a great mass that transfers into such a great momentum a simple glance aside will have you flying at speeds far beyond your capability to turn around. That's what martial arts are about, using teh mass, momentum and force of an adversary against them. I'm sorry but if this is in space my reaction and combat ability just made your one advantage a complete non event. Yes due to action and reaction i will also gain momentum in another way (to a lessor degree - applied force in another direction) but if I simply avoid being hit or slightly redirect your blow (using that skill taught by I-ching) your out of here. And a slight redirection would mean I'm not that out of control.

I never mentioned the time frame in which he made the trip but it was a few panels (just like your scan) so the 200 km's in the same time as the 20- yeah it is strong logic. Superman's travel speed is faster than Dianna's but his travel speed is directly linked to his reaction speed. So is Surfers, they don't have the ingrained training to focus auto reflex and enhance the reflex. WW's reaction speed is greater than Superman's so greater than Surfers (since Surfer is at best close to Superman's speed.

So again we are back to speed we don't have. My scan was again relating to reaction speed. Which I have more than superman - fact proven on panel as many times as the counter argument your giving with isn't even part of the battle. Superman's reaction speed is on a par with his pure speed. As is Surfers, if we were talking travel speed you'd have the edge but we aren't we are talking reaction speed in which I have greater than Superman and therefore greater than Surfer and you. That is why I can react to someone who has the combined speed of Superman, Flash, Myself and Martian manhunter it's not lying, your applying the wrong frame of reference. For this battle we both have the same speed (mach 18) what we have from the characters who's speed we've chosen is their reaction. You keep applying their travel speed which I'm not. I only brought in the flash scans because you asked. WW does react faster superman it's a simple fact.

Sorry but that's a common misconception. BA and Cap are not the same powers. Lady Blaze did a deal with the elder Egyptian gods when Shazam was empowering BA to pervert him to evil. He is powered by completely different gods. he's stronger than Cap but not as durable and a lot less stamina. That is why Cap often beats him despite being lower in strength.

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/captain-marvel-family/108-545117/lady_blaze_s_deal_with_set/105-2043095/

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/captain-marvel-family/108-545117/cap_marvel_beating_ba_1jpg/105-1973626/

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/captain-marvel-family/108-545117/cap_marvel_beats_ba_3/105-1973628/

That was the reason I took cap. He was so cheap and his stamina (limitless) makes him the most useful of all them because of perceived less durability than some (which isn't the case- which I believe is why creator was questioning the costs).
It's also the reaon I took Dianna for both reaction and combat skill- the two combined IMHO make up for so much else being lower.

[ThaMessenger07]

Oct 14, 2011 3:57:29 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

That was the reason I took cap. He was so cheap and his stamina (limitless) makes him the most useful of all them because of perceived less durability than some (which isn't the case- which I believe is why creator was questioning the costs).
It's also the reaon I took Dianna for both reaction and combat skill- the two combined IMHO make up for so much else being lower.

I based my points on Common Debate and popular Belief, not Personal Knowledge. I also based it on the Idea of my own personal Creation and how I could make him a threat to someone who would go all out in there choices, while sticking to moderation with my own.

Great Debate Guy! Best Ive read in a loooong time! Keep it up & if any questions or input needed, just let me know.

[Beatboks]

OK I've been through a little more of my WW and here's some more back up.

Evidence that her speed and reaction are Flash level

Obviously she can't outrace Flash now that he has learned to steal speed (which he could do in the scan I showed before). before he learned that she was able to match him in speed (again not an issue in this battle but I want to make it clear)

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_keeping_up_with_flash/105-2044305/

This was pre speed steal ability.

Diana can hang with and react to Jesse Quick even when she entering the speed force (this is when Speedsters get their "flash level powers)

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_faster_tha_speedster/105-2044304/

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_keeping_with_jesse_when_approaching_the_speed_force/105-2044306/

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_with_jesse_at_the_edge_of_the_speed_force/105-2044309/

As you can clearly see Jesse has attained the speed where she creates force like IMP so that Dian's strength can't hold her and Diana right there with her in the speed force. Superman hasn't entered the speed force and he's kept just behind flash.

This was also around ( just before)the brief time Jesse took on the Flash Mantle and was performing Flash level feats (because of entering the speed force). Once Wally "died/entered the speed force her conection allong with Jay's was lost reducing them to below light speed (just) again.

WW has also such good reaction that even blind folded she can react and hold (just barely admittedly - but she is at the disadvantage of being blind folded)

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_fighting_the_jla_part_1_super/105-2044310/

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_fighting_the_jla_part_2_super/105-2044311/

So while blind she can react to the Flash, Martian Manhunter and others (plas BC etc) until it's only her and Flash. When you can show me feats of SS reacting to someone in Flash's level of speed as well as MM and others we can talk about how SS could be close to WW in reaction.

Diana reacts to and Dodges a blood lusted Darkseid controlled Superman

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_reacting_to_superman/105-2044307/

Now as to combat ability. All this BS about grappling and not being that good in combat will now end. here Diana clearly does use leverage or martial prowess to turn the greater strength or mass (which someone with greater strength would have with greater ,muscle density - muscle weight a lot more than fat, the other part of the bodies tissue)of her opponents against them

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/wonder_woman_v_superman/105-2044301/

even against a blood lusted controlled Powergirl, while holding back and trying to reason with her.

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_beats_pg_with_skill/105-2044302/

enough speed to go from zero to speed blitz PG

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_blitzes_pg/105-2044303/

With that my debate is done.
I'm happy for other to vote (at least I assume that's the deal)

[Dane]

"Evidence that her speed and reaction are Flash level"



Full reply coming soon, just got something I have to take care of first.

[Beatboks]

OK I know I said I was done, but i finally found the issues I was after.

Wally has trouble reacting to Cheetah (a regular WW villain)
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/cheetah_v_flash_1/105-2045845/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/cheetah_v_flash_2/105-2045846/

A BLIND Wonder Woman can react to and TAG ZOOM a feat Wally struggles to do. I will point out that during the course of her Battle with Zoom she gets a couple of IMP hits from him. But this was during the period when she was blind and the fact that she can still react and tag him 2 or 3 times to eventually take him (until he escaped at the end) is a HUGE feat.
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_and_flash_v_zoom_and_cheetah_1/105-2045855/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_while_blind_tags_zoom_/105-2045859/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_tags_zoom_3/105-2045858/

While HOLDING BACK Diana uses her skill and reaction speed to do this to a BLOOD LUSTED Superman who has "Greater Strength, durability and PURE SPEED"

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/wonder_woman_v_superman_1/105-2045848/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/wonder_woman_v_superman_2/105-2045849/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/wonder_woman_v_superman_3/105-2045853/

Funny I didn't see any "grappling". No I saw blocks, Dodges, deflections martial arts skill to use her opponents greater physical ability against him. Imagine what she could have done if NOT holding back.
I'm sure you've seen the previous couple of pages which are usually used to show in Supes/WW threads on the Vine how Supes wins because he got the first hit. All of which takes less than 2 minutes
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/wonder_woman_bested_superman_in_less_than_2_minutes/105-2045847/

Then Finished it
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/wonder_woman_v_superman_5/105-2045854/


Also while blind defecting bullets fired from about 10 to 12 feet away. Bare in mind she doesn't have DD's radar she actually has to wait and hear the bullets trajectory by the sound it's making here.
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/ww_reaction_to_gunfire_when_blind_fired_10_feet_away/105-2045856/

Any and all underrating of Diana's reaction speed combat skill will now cease

[creator]

So how do we register who won ?
By voting ?

[Beatboks]

I'd assume so, but to be sure have just pm'd messenger both here and on the vine.

[ThaMessenger07]

Oct 19, 2011 6:29:16 GMT -5 creator said:

So how do we register who won ?
By voting ?

Yeah lets do a Vote. It was a phenomenal Battle. But I think Dean has to at least end his argument he has half the replies that Dark has and ended by saying he will give a full reply. So lets give him at least till tomorrow to reply?

If that's okay with everyone else.... Oh and Creator, you can register on the original thread. If that's what you meant...

[Dane]

Firstly I'd like to apologize for the delay. I realize interrupting a battle sucks but I had some stuff to do and knew replying to this would take awhile. That and I wanted to get some scans to support Silver Surfer. I admit when I chose his powerset I thought his FTL speeds were a given and an accepted part of his character. I still think that is the case and I think anyone who has read SS comics would agree. Whether that affects the outcome of the debate is beyond my control. I'll post what I can though. I find it hard to believe that you actually believe everything you're saying to be true. If you're playing WW up and underselling SS for the debate, I understand. But I don't think neutral readers would agree with what you're saying.

I'll admit WW looks good in a lot of those scans, much faster and more skilled than I previously believed. But I don't think she is at the level you're describing. I don't think she is even in Wally West's ballpark in any measurement of speed.

"Obviously she can't outrace Flash now that he has learned to steal speed (which he could do in the scan I showed before). before he learned that she was able to match him in speed (again not an issue in this battle but I want to make it clear)

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....sh/105-2044305/

This was pre speed steal ability."

There is no speed feat posted alongside the scan here. I'm not sure if it's the wrong scan or what but Diana is just punching a tree while Flash runs past her. I don't see any indication that she is moving at his speed or reacting to anything at all. Given the largely inanimate nature of trees, I can't really count that as a reaction time feat. It is implied that they're running around chopping down trees, but they aren't necessarily both running together, next to each other as I think you imagine. Wally could have doubled back or ran in a circle or just ran slower so she could keep up. This is them trying to solve a problem together, not outrace each other.

"Diana can hang with and react to Jesse Quick even when she entering the speed force (this is when Speedsters get their "flash level powers)

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....er/105-2044304/

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....ce/105-2044306/

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....e/105-2 044309/"

I hope you mean Jesse Quick entering the speed force, because Diana does not. Here are the problems with that scan:

1. Flash is faster than Jesse Quick by several orders of magnitude without "breaching the speed force". What she calls "terminal velocity" for herself is probably still hundreds of times slower than The Flash or Zoom.

2. Want to know a character who beat Jesse Quick's incredible speed with reaction time alone? Dick motherfuckin' Grayson.

Dick Grayson vs Jesse Quick

She might be a 'speedster' but she isn't that fast and individual feats can make a character look a lot faster than they are. I could pull this scan out of context and say Grayson has lightspeed reactions. I don't because I take the majority of his showings to prove he's peak human. Please do us both a favor and apply that to WW, because she does not fight or react at lightspeed consistently.

3. Jesse Quick is trying to attack someone at the same time. This will invariably slow her running speed. You can't throw punches and run like it's a 100m sprint at the same time.

4. The most telling: Wonder Woman says 'at this speed I can't hold Jesse back'. Logically she can't be travelling at the same speed. The reason she couldn't hold Jesse back is because of relative weight, something that stops taking affect beyond lightspeed, but that's an argument for another time. If WW (who is vastly stronger than Jesse) cannot hold her back, it stands to reason that Jesse's speed and therefore relative weight is many, many times greater than Wonder Woman's. For her to be unable to restrain her means she cannot be travelling at even close to her speed.

"As you can clearly see Jesse has attained the speed where she creates force like IMP so that Dian's strength can't hold her and Diana right there with her in the speed force. Superman hasn't entered the speed force and he's kept just behind flash.

This was also around ( just before)the brief time Jesse took on the Flash Mantle and was performing Flash level feats (because of entering the speed force). Once Wally "died/entered the speed force her conection allong with Jay's was lost reducing them to below light speed (just) again.

WW has also such good reaction that even blind folded she can react and hold (just barely admittedly - but she is at the disadvantage of being blind folded)

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....er/105-2044310/

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....er/105-2044311/"

This isn't a reaction speed feat. You can tell by Batman's dialogue. He says she can't compensate for his speed and she is right. Instead what she does is pre-emptively guess where he is going to be and attack there before he gets them. It looks like she is punching him but when you think about it, it's more like he is running into her hand.

It makes sense due to their familiarity with each other that Wally's attack sequences would become predictable for her eventually and he was holding back enough not to hurt her. I believe it's stated on panel that everyone except Batman was holding back against her. But more than that she is using the air pressure changes to predict where he is going to be, not where he already is. (which logically don't exist because of the speed force, otherwise the air pressure vibrations created by him travelling FTL in-atmosphere would demolish any city he ran through).

"So while blind she can react to the Flash, Martian Manhunter and others (plas BC etc) until it's only her and Flash. When you can show me feats of SS reacting to someone in Flash's level of speed as well as MM and others we can talk about how SS could be close to WW in reaction."

Sorry, Silver Surfer doesn't have a whole team to job to him. But if you read some SS comics you'll probably remember his FTL speeds. I'll see what scans I can dig up to help facilitate that process.

"Diana reacts to and Dodges a blood lusted Darkseid controlled Superman

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....an/105-2044307/"

Mind controlled feats aren't worth much and she hits Superman with a block of marble. Hopefully she retains this sub-human intellect in all her fights.

"Now as to combat ability. All this BS about grappling and not being that good in combat will now end. here Diana clearly does use leverage or martial prowess to turn the greater strength or mass (which someone with greater strength would have with greater ,muscle density - muscle weight a lot more than fat, the other part of the bodies tissue)of her opponents against them

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....an/105-2044301/"

Superman isn't fighting her here. You can get jacked up about WW's high school wrestling team skills being grand if you like, but just read the dialog. First of all, this comic was written by a feminist. Second of all, Superman is trying to talk to her and she throws him out a window. I'm sure the damage done to Kal-El was catastrophic.

"even against a blood lusted controlled Powergirl, while holding back and trying to reason with her.

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....ll/105-2044302/"

PG is bloodlusted, cool. But she seems to have been pretty much reduced to gibbering Hulk-like intelligence. Wonder Woman just punches her in the face and restrains her. Again, bloodlusted feats don't count for much. If you fought any trained martial artist and just ran at them like a 10 year old you would lose regardless of whether you were in physically better shape. That isn't a feat.

"enough speed to go from zero to speed blitz PG

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....pg/105-2044303/"

That isn't a speed blitz. A speed blitz is where you move so fast you hit a person dozens of times before they know what is up. That is a rugby tackle on a mentally handicapped woman wearing a onesy. If she did the same against a competent, able minded Superman/Powergirl I would call it a feat. But Wonder Woman has already said in one of your scans that Kryptonians (Superman) are faster than her in terms of raw speed. So that wouldn't make sense even within the argument you've presented.

"Wally has trouble reacting to Cheetah (a regular WW villain)
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks...._1/105-2045845/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks...._2/105-2045846/"

Heres the two problems I have with this:

Wally is already injured before the fight began.
The Flash is always called The Fastest Man Alive. If he was slower than a jumped up furry, I think he'd lose the title.

I think the reason he doesn't or can't react is because of his injury. Not because Cheetah is faster. I don't see how it was caused either, so I can't really say how it happened. It makes a lot more sense for Zoom to have inflicted it though.

"A BLIND Wonder Woman can react to and TAG ZOOM a feat Wally struggles to do. I will point out that during the course of her Battle with Zoom she gets a couple of IMP hits from him. But this was during the period when she was blind and the fact that she can still react and tag him 2 or 3 times to eventually take him (until he escaped at the end) is a HUGE feat.
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks...._1/105-2045855/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....m_/105-2045859/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks...._3/105-2045858/"

The first tag is not a combat feat. She blindsides Zoom when he is doing something else. It's more like a sucker punch. Which even then doesn't make sense considering at best you put her a bit faster than light when he is supposedly millions of times faster than that.

The second one is more in the realm of shitty writing, outright. I'm no cowboy but I know you have to be able to see what you're throwing a lasso at. In the comic Zoom leaves dozens of after images, how does she even know which one to throw her lasso at? And even then how does he walk into it? If anything that is an eyesight feat. It's definitely not running speed and it's definitely not a reaction to stimulus. So regardless of the fact she is fighting Zoom, for your character none of those scans actually prove anything at all.

"While HOLDING BACK Diana uses her skill and reaction speed to do this to a BLOOD LUSTED Superman who has "Greater Strength, durability and PURE SPEED"

www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks...._1/105-2045848/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks...._2/105-2045849/
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks...._3/105-2045853/"

Another mind controlled character. He isn't faster in those scans, he is definitely stronger but that isn't anything out of the ordinary. He is at least partially retarded for using narrow heat vision beams when we know when he really is bloodlusted he can disintegrate things into atoms with wide beams. He never uses his freeze breath, he never tries to speed blitz her. There is nothing about this fight that implies he is vaguely competent.

"Funny I didn't see any "grappling". No I saw blocks, Dodges, deflections martial arts skill to use her opponents greater physical ability against him. Imagine what she could have done if NOT holding back.
I'm sure you've seen the previous couple of pages which are usually used to show in Supes/WW threads on the Vine how Supes wins because he got the first hit. All of which takes less than 2 minutes
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks.... s/105-2045847/"

She dodges Superman once, while he's mind controlled. Oh lawdy.

"Also while blind defecting bullets fired from about 10 to 12 feet away. Bare in mind she doesn't have DD's radar she actually has to wait and hear the bullets trajectory by the sound it's making here.
www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks....ay/105-2045856/"

Here's the interesting thing about that: They're travelling slower than sound (lol), and you already said she had the enhanced senses to detect minute changes in atmospheric pressure. So does she have enhanced senses or not? Because you're saying one then and then another. P.S. Batman could have performed that feat.

[Beatboks]

1. if you truly believed you had SS's travel speed why did you think there was a specified speed to the travel power we could choose. If we could travel near light or FTL that why would we even pick flight at mach 18. Again I'm not saying that WW is as fast as SS. I'm saying she reacts better, has better reflexes which she does. Very few comic characters have reflexes greater than Diana - that's what reaction speed is all about.

2&3. Thank you, I believe WW gets underrated a lot. I don't believe she's as fast as Wally now (speed steal upgrade) but I do believe she was Wally's level (or just of ) prior. She has reacted to and matched plenty of speedsters. In one guest appearance of Wally in her title an assassin was coming after Dianna (may-something) who was also a speedster. Fast enough in fact to shoot Wally a few times and him not react. when WW faced her she also got shot (in the shoulder and gut IIRC) but she also put an arrow in the barrel of the laser gun the speedster was using. She easily reacted mutiple beams from Sinestro's yellow light beams and proceeded to take him apart. As to the scan there is another issue where Wally streaks away to stop a fire. He clearly leaves her standing there alone. The then passes him and cuts him off, then again gets in front of him. All are meaningless currently as they are of Wally before he can speed steal. I only showed them to further demonstrate my case (which I may not have been clear about) that Diana is at "flash" level but where I wasn't clear (which I realize now) is not at "speed Force master" Flash level. My point is that before the last speed force upgrade WW often matched Flash in foot speed. Her level hasn't dropped and neither has her reaction level. I'll find the scans later if you'd like. Just worked all night and took my kids to swimming lessons and shopped for my wife's Birthday tomorrow so after nearly 22 hr long day I'm spent. OH and Flash clearly says glad you can keep up (with a look of Shock on his face)

4 (1). Yes Jesse entered the Speed force and WW was right there with her. Flash fact when a speedster enters the speed force that's when they reach Flash levels. Just as Jesse did for that brief period (5 or 6 issues) where she assumed the mantle of the Flash (which by the way was shortly after that scan). So when WW reacted to her she was Flash level (and if you thing getting a rope on someone going that fast isn't reacting I'd like to hear what is)

5 (2). Dick clearly stated he didn't see it, so he didn't dodge he was deliberately missed, there is a vast difference.

6. even with the league holding back it shows great reaction. Flash was still moving at great speed and WW couldn't see him and react she had to wait until she gained teh info in other ways.

7(3&4).Jesse Quick was trying to attack the one who killed her father. She's P@#$ed off and going all out. She wasn't slowing down at all. Of course WW couldn't hold her anymore than she could stop herself flying when Zoom hit her with an IMP, so?.

8. You were the one who said she doesn't have much skill, only grapples and uses her strength. So when I offer some scans of her using skill it's a no feat. What ever works at the moment hey? Oh and now she's a martial artist, to the "dumb brute PG. It's still WW dodging someone with more "pure speed". The whole purpose of the fight (that Superman wasn't in) was to show she does use skill. If I'd offered against a lessor powered opponent you would have said it was just strength. hence why I looked for fights v equal or stronger opponents.

8. yeah speed blitz was the wrong word, and I don't know why I even brought that one up (I think it was after flack on the reaction grid thread - and I meant to load it there)

9.Wally was injured by Cheetah in the opening sequence of the battle when she slashed his throat with her claws. So sorry that doesn't cut him any slack.

10 Superman wasn't "mind controlled' so much as brain washed, and she dodged him 3 times. That three out of several more in there 6 or so encounters.

Low powered bullets travel between 180 to 290 meters per second. That's about all you get from machine guns like pictured. Sound travels at 330 m/3 so the bullets would have to be 1/2 to 2/3 the way to her before she knew where to dodge. No Batman could not do that. As for the atmospheric pressure changes, that was something Batman said not me. It was also in relation to a human of equal size to her being right in her vicinity. How much pressure do you think changes from a 10gram metal slug moving through the air. I'd wager not enough to be able to track it very quickly (which would make her reaction time even less).

You keep focusing on the travel speed of SS. The handful of reactions you've shown are far from impressive. He dodges two lasers fired from space ships not exactly near him. He's travelling at high speed so a simple and minor shift in weight may have made him turn a great deal in a very short expanse of time. If he had such great reflexes he wouldn't have been bested by Thor and many others.