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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jul 19, 2011 13:08:03 GMT -5
That would work for me but established WW myth would trump actual myth when the two are not fitting neatly. unless the real myth is more hardcore and interesting I draw the line at having her cut her breast off.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 19, 2011 13:16:26 GMT -5
Lol but what happens when our opinions differ on what is keeping her down? flip a coin and then regardless of if one of us prefers A over B run with whatever luck picks and keep it from this point on in our continuity?
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 19, 2011 13:28:56 GMT -5
Well since I prefer Hippolyta alive rather than either of her deaths in actual myth, I do not know if I could leave it to chance to decide.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 19, 2011 13:50:43 GMT -5
Well since I prefer Hippolyta alive rather than either of her deaths in actual myth, I do not know if I could leave it to chance to decide. the Greek gods can return the dead to life.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 19, 2011 13:58:29 GMT -5
True but it unhinges the entire Amazon history. It would require an entire rewrite. Hercules' deception and rape of the Amazons are what put them on Themyscira in the first place. It also would require a rewrite for the Bana-Mighdal because they are the branch of Amazons that refused to forgive him or the other gods for letting their devoted followers be conquered and raped.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 19, 2011 14:02:15 GMT -5
True but it unhinges the entire Amazon history. It would require an entire rewrite. Hercules' deception and rape of the Amazons are what put them on Themyscira in the first place. It also would require a rewrite for the Bana-Mighdal because they are the branch of Amazons that refused to forgive him or the other gods for letting their devoted followers be conquered and raped. I don't see how. If the rape, exile to Temyscira and the subsequent Bana-Mighdal happened after the rape by Hercules and the Trojan war (where in some versions Hyppolyta was killed by Achilles) Then we could just go from there. Since pretty much everything we'd write would be after all the current myths we have on record. And her returning to life after death and still preaching forgiveness would really hammer home that in fact yes, she is a great queen. She forgave all the wrongs done to her, even her own kidnapping and murder by Achilles. plus if it was Athena or Ares that returned her to life it would make perfect sense.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 19, 2011 14:35:29 GMT -5
In the DC timeline, the gods created the Amazons and they made a beautiful city and preached peace and love to those who would hear them. Meanwhile Ares spread lies about Amazons being murderers of babies and men and set Hercules on them after wounding his ego. Hercules marched on the Amazon city and challenged Hippolyta. She came and soundly defeated him in combat and he requested her hand in marriage and that some of his men marry some of the Amazons.
On their wedding night, Hercules and his army drugged the Amazons and raped most of them and imprisoned all of them. Athena broke Hippolyta free and she freed the rest of her Amazons and they laid waste to Hercules' army. The main group of Amazons chose to continue their lives as "peaceful warriors" under the guidance of the gods and a small faction chose to abandon the gods mission and forge their own way.
The main faction was moved to Themyscira, the others found their way a few years later to the Attic War (to free Hippolyta's sister Antiope) and after Antiope was killed, they became the Bana-Mighdal and made their way to Egypt.
Then there is the fact that there are at least three different versions I can find on the continuity of the Amazons in actual myth. All contradict each other. Penthesilea killed Hippolyta in one, Hercules in another and Achilles in yet another.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 19, 2011 14:45:35 GMT -5
In the DC timeline, the gods created the Amazons and they made a beautiful city and preached peace and love to those who would hear them. Meanwhile Ares spread lies about Amazons being murderers of babies and men and set Hercules on them after wounding his ego. Hercules marched on the Amazon city and challenged Hippolyta. She came and soundly defeated him in combat and he requested her hand in marriage and that some of his men marry some of the Amazons. On their wedding night, Hercules and his army drugged the Amazons and raped most of them and imprisoned all of them. Athena broke Hippolyta free and she freed the rest of her Amazons and they laid waste to Hercules' army. The main group of Amazons chose to continue their lives as "peaceful warriors" under the guidance of the gods and a small faction chose to abandon the gods mission and forge their own way. The main faction was moved to Themyscira, the others found their way a few years later to the Attic War (to free Hippolyta's sister Antiope) and after Antiope was killed, they became the Bana-Mighdal and made their way to Egypt. None of these things really contradict what I propose. All these things happened at some point (logically speaking that would mean during the time of the 12 works of Hercules but before the Enneid) She gets killed by Hercules then resurrected by Athena at the point where core DC said she would have instead just been freed from her chains by Athena. She frees the amazon they kick the crap out of Hercules and his army of drunken frat boy rappists. Afterward, there is the Bana Mighdal rebellion. That would be before the Trojan War. At some point in that time, Hyppolyta would die again killed by Achilles (or we just decided that she only died once and the other versions of her death are not true). The Trojan war happens some point after and the great epic cycle leading to the Odyssey happens then Aeneid, then after the other greek and roman myths. The amazons basically slowly fade further and further into myth as less and less new contact with the world happen until they are only barely remembered in the stories we have now. Cue the storyline leading to Diana. There we integrated the DC timeline without having to put aside the actual greek myths. Proving we are smarter then 90% of DC's staff.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 19, 2011 15:05:14 GMT -5
So we would exclude the myth about Penthesilea killing Hippolyta by mistake and in an attempt to die honorably, enrolls herself and her army in the Trojan War? Because the only way we could join all three myths would be to have her killed by Hercules, brought back to life and NOT be brought to Themyscira at that point, be accidentally killed by Penthesilea, Penthesilea joins the Trojan War with the Amazon army, Hippolyta is brought back to life in order to be killed by Achiles and is afterwards brought back to life again and then takes her people to Themyscira.
But there was no revolt with the Bana-Mighdal. Antiope just could not let go of her newly born hate for men and there were some Amazons who agree with her. They left Hippolyta peacefully and with love. In fact, Antiope and Hippolyta traded their Girdles of Gaea at that point. Antiope's becoming the Lasso of Truth and Hippolyta's girdle being returned to Themyscira in modern times after being with the Bana-Mighdal for centuries.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 19, 2011 15:15:32 GMT -5
So we would exclude the myth about Penthesilea killing Hippolyta by mistake and in an attempt to die honorably, enrolls herself and her army in the Trojan War? Because the only way we could join all three myths would be to have her killed by Hercules, brought back to life and NOT be brought to Themyscira at that point, be accidentally killed by Penthesilea, Penthesilea joins the Trojan War with the Amazon army, Hippolyta is brought back to life in order to be killed by Achiles and is afterwards brought back to life again and then takes her people to Themyscira. Since we are just discussing a theoretical scenario that's one possibility. Gives Hyppolyta a lot of baggage and history to build future material on . A good thing. Another would be to just keep those myths that work within how we want things to be told (when writing a story where two versions of the myth that inspires the story contradict, sometimes it's best to just choose which one in our version is correct or the closest to truth). When one myth gets in the way of our intent we can use our almighty powers to choose what we want. I'm just advocating using as much of the cool greek mythology and ideas as possible. But there was no revolt with the Bana-Mighdal. Antiope just could not let go of her newly born hate for men and there were some Amazons who agree with her. They left Hippolyta peacefully and with love. In fact, Antiope and Hippolyta traded their Girdles of Gaea at that point. Antiope's becoming the Lasso of Truth and Hippolyta's girdle being returned to Themyscira in modern times after being with the Bana-Mighdal for centuries. That's fine, and things happening this way are not necessarily a problem either even if we use the trojan war and all the juiciest bits of greek mythology, it's just greater detail and layer.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 19, 2011 19:46:45 GMT -5
Well if I am being completely honest, I found DC's telling of Hippolyta and Hercules much more interesting than the actual myth. He gutted her because Antiope brought a bunch of Amazons when she thought Hercules was trying to harm Hippolyta. Then he stole the belt.
I think it serves the Amazon combat prowess better to have bested him in combat so he used lies and deceit to sac their city and steal the Girdle of Gaea (DC's version).
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 19, 2011 20:04:36 GMT -5
Well if I am being completely honest, I found DC's telling of Hippolyta and Hercules much more interesting than the actual myth. He gutted her because Antiope brought a bunch of Amazons when she thought Hercules was trying to harm Hippolyta. Then he stole the belt. None of the versions of the story happen like you describe here. Worse, in all 5 versions the reason Hercules killed the amazons is the same. Hercules killed her is because Hera, hating Hercules, shapeshifted into the form of an amazon and tricked the amazons into believing Hercules was here to kill them despite the fact that he was actually here peacefully and in fact Hyppolyta in most versions had already willingly decided to give him the belt because the reason Hercules had come for the belt was because it was his 9th labor to redeem himself before the gods. Hera hating Hercules tricked the amazons into attacking him in all versions because she wants to kill him in vengeance for Zeus's infidelity. As well Antioppe is more interesting since in the real myths she married Theseus and willingly left the amazons. A singularity that is very interesting and rife with story potential. As one version has her repudiated afterward and attacking Athens with an army of amazons I think it serves the Amazon combat prowess better to have bested him in combat so he used lies and deceit to sac their city and steal the Girdle of Gaea (DC's version). The mythic Hercules was as strong as Zeus, and the best warrior Greece had ever seen at the time. He was a hero on a quest for redemption and founder of nations. Not some drunken rapist like DC suggests. The mythological Hercules is a lot more interesting then the DC version and if anything. Hyppolita losing to him is nothing to be ashamed about considering by then he had the nemean lion skin along with being a better warrior, far more powerful physically. I'm saying this as an amazon fan but DC's version is the poorer one since it basically ignores how dickish and petty the greek gods are and is far less multi-layered and subtle.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 19, 2011 20:40:40 GMT -5
What you said is not really different than what I said, it just includes details I left out.
Speaking of leaving out. I forgot to mention that after Hippolyta and Antiope separated, Antiope's Amazons pursued Hercules and what was left of his army, which connects to actual myth.
In DC, Antiope willing married but was murdered by Ariadne, Theseus' former wife after Antiope had a child with him. Ariadne had been left on an island and Circe gave her the means of having revenge by teleporting her into Antiope's bedchamber with a dagger. The murder was done so it looked like Antiope's adopted daughter, Phthia had done the deed. When Theseus had Phthia imprisoned and barred the Amazons from seeing her to find out what happened, the Amazons attacked and freed Phthia. Which is why in modern times, the Bana-Mighdal call outsiders and untrustworthy people Ariadne.
And whoops. I messed up. Turns out Antiope gave Hippolyta her girdle but Hippolyta's was stolen by Hercules. The Bana-Mighdal only recovered it once they freed Phthia.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 19, 2011 20:43:16 GMT -5
Also Hercules deeply regretted his rape of the Amazons and begged for their forgiveness so it is not like DC screwed up the character. He was known for his promiscuity anyway and technically he was married to Hippolyta at the time of her rape.
Hippolyta beat Hercules through better fighting ability and used his own god-like strength against him.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 19, 2011 20:52:48 GMT -5
What you said is not really different than what I said, it just includes details I left out. I nitpicked over this because those details are important because it showcases what the mythic Hercules is actually, a great hero really trying to do right but forever getting dicked around by Hera. Further illustrating the point is that Hera is actually the one who inflicted the berzerker rage that caused him to murder his family. And was also the one who arranged the subsequent events that let to Hercules dying by the blood of the centaur and then shedding his mortal form and become a full god. My point is that by definition Hercules in the myth is not some drunken raging rapist. He's a hero, a king and a nation builder. He's got so many awesome legendary deeds it's fucking ridiculous. I think it would make for a more interesting story and more in keeping with the concept of greek tragedy if this particular episode made both of them victims of the whims of petty gods (Hercules for being forced to kill Hyppolita who was ready to help him actually and Hyppolita being forced into combat by devious trickery with an actually redemption seeking demigod) Remember one of the fundamentals of greek mythology is how glorious and flawed the gods are at the same time. I just feel that a good wonder woman story should give props to the great heroes where props is due. Afterward when Wonder Woman proves how awesome she is, it's more meaningful because it makes her a peer to legend. In DC, Antiope willing married but was murdered by Ariadne, Theseus' former wife after Antiope had a child with him. The murder was done so it looked like Antiope's adopted daughter, Phthia had done the deed. When Theseus had Phthia imprisoned and barred the Amazons from seeing her to find out what happened, the Amazons attacked and freed Phthia. Which is why in modern times, the Bana-Mighdal call outsiders and untrustworthy people Ariadne. I didn't remember that I admit. But see this is interesting as Ariadne here is the villain, but at the same time in greek myths. She was a victim of the gods. Athena turned her into the first spider because she dared to boast that she was better at weaving then her then challenging her to a weaving contest were she wove a magical tapestry humiliating the gods.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 19, 2011 20:57:25 GMT -5
But if Hera could manipulate Hercules, then why not Ares as well?
If not for Ares' meddling in DC, Hercules would never have attacked Hippolyta in the first place.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 19, 2011 20:59:07 GMT -5
Also Hercules deeply regretted his rape of the Amazons and begged for their forgiveness so it is not like DC screwed up the character. He was known for his promiscuity anyway and technically he was married to Hippolyta at the time of her rape. Except 2 things why this botters me: 1)Hercules is not a rapist in the myths which is very different from being promiscuous 2)Hercules never married Hyppolita in the myths. The only time Hyppolyta married in the myths is one version where Hyppolita instead of Antioppe married Theseus Hippolyta beat Hercules through better fighting ability and used his own god-like strength against him. Except again. Hyppolita never had any close to the strenght of Hercules. Hercules was so strong he could rearrange the landscape (he did) hold up the entire heavens over his back and he was a peerless warrior. I dislike that instead of crafting a series of great deeds for Hyppolita and thus she climbs up in awesome to be a worthy hero we would depict Hercules in a less awesome light then he is so as to make Hyppolita seem better. I generally prefer that a character be improved upon so he climbs to the pedestal where he is worthy of standing shoulder to shoulder with his peers rather then putting down his peers to make them fall from where they are and be a character's equal.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 19, 2011 21:02:48 GMT -5
First off I have to say this is one of the most stimulating conversations I've had in a long time, I hope you're enjoying this as well But if Hera could manipulate Hercules, then why not Ares as well? If not for Ares' meddling in DC, Hercules would never have attacked Hippolyta in the first place. There really is no reason why either couldn't do it. The gods manipulated human and demigod heroes all the time. They could warp their perceptions, drive them mad and curse them to their dooms. Ares as well hates Athena. I could see Hera and Ares plotting together to destroy both Hercules and the amazons (whom in DC worship Athena above all else) Destroy two birds with 1 stone by having Hercules kill Hyppolita and the amazons either kill Hercules or go on a rampage and murder Hercules's crew of heroes at least.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 19, 2011 21:34:16 GMT -5
Well Hercules is not a murderer either but according to you, Hera manipulated him into becoming one. You can blame the gods for Hercules' depiction against the Amazons if you want. The marriage is a small thing and myths do not cover every minute detail anyway. They cover the broad strokes and they also are not accurate either. Hippolyta does not need strength near Hercules to defeat him. Heroes without notable strength beat those with all the time and it almost always in ways other than trying to out muscle them. I actually am enjoying this. It is the first time in a long time I am able to talk about my favorite character. I discuss the DC myth, you discuss the actual myth. I am loving it. Ares does actually hate Athena. Or at least he did before modern stories put them on more civil terms (after becoming the lord of Olympus, she gave Ares the underworld) In this scene, one of Ares' minions works his magic to manipulate Hercules. In this one, we see how the fight between them actually goes down in DC history.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 19, 2011 21:37:07 GMT -5
It seems plausible that given his manipulation into a rage AND suffering defeat at the hands of this woman who is supposedly spreading lies about him that he would do what he ends up doing. And as I mentioned, he feels deep rooted regret over his actions.
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