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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 20, 2012 5:04:56 GMT -5
Not for me. I guess I am a blood-thirsty animal because I would do it and sleep like a baby if I felt it was a me or him case. I would however, be haunted by the fact that I killed 10,000 people with a bomb from 30,000 feet in the air if I knew that any of them were non-combatants. You can't know that dude. Not until you try it. You may think you should feel like that, but our emotions have a well established reputations of f#$king with us on every turn. Even trained soldiers are haunted by memories of their kill. Airmen and drone operators are rarely as affected.
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Dec 20, 2012 8:45:22 GMT -5
We clearly have different mentalities on this subject. And we'll just carry own for ages with making no difference.
However, I have a request. Would you ask your friends what they feel is more personal, shooting someone with a gun or stabbing someone with a knife. If they can, maybe expand on their answer.
Biggish guy getting tasered
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 20, 2012 14:33:10 GMT -5
Not for me. I guess I am a blood-thirsty animal because I would do it and sleep like a baby if I felt it was a me or him case. I would however, be haunted by the fact that I killed 10,000 people with a bomb from 30,000 feet in the air if I knew that any of them were non-combatants. You can't know that dude. Not until you try it. You may think you should feel like that, but our emotions have a well established reputations of f#$king with us on every turn. Even trained soldiers are haunted by memories of their kill. Airmen and drone operators are rarely as affected. Sure I can. I am very aware of myself and I know exactly where I stand when it comes to human life. Being an American, I know many war vets. I don't know a single one that is haunted by their first kill. I do know some that are haunted by some of the crap they went through but that is different.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 20, 2012 14:36:59 GMT -5
We clearly have different mentalities on this subject. And we'll just carry own for ages with making no difference. However, I have a request. Would you ask your friends what they feel is more personal, shooting someone with a gun or stabbing someone with a knife. If they can, maybe expand on their answer. Biggish guy getting tasered Not sure what that would prove one way or another. I imagine you think my friends will agree with you. Assuming that is the case, that doesn't make you right, just a lot of people wrong. There was a time when the majority felt blacks needed to have separate everything than whites. Where they right simply because the majority thought that was how it should be?
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 20, 2012 15:03:54 GMT -5
Sure I can. I am very aware of myself and I know exactly where I stand when it comes to human life. Being an American, I know many war vets. I don't know a single one that is haunted by their first kill. I do know some that are haunted by some of the crap they went through but that is different. No man. It doesn't work like that. No amount of self awareness and moral fiber will ready you for murder.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 20, 2012 22:33:56 GMT -5
Sure I can. I am very aware of myself and I know exactly where I stand when it comes to human life. Being an American, I know many war vets. I don't know a single one that is haunted by their first kill. I do know some that are haunted by some of the crap they went through but that is different. No man. It doesn't work like that. No amount of self awareness and moral fiber will ready you for murder. Ha! I like the choice of words. There is murder, then there is killing. Up until your last post, we were talking about the latter. It would take some extreme circumstances for me to ever murder and in every single one I can think of, it would not be considered murder but killing for self-preservation or the preservation of others and in those cases yes, I do know how I would feel about it. Killing is only horrific to those that were raised to feel that way. I was raised to never murder but I was also raised to believe killing in self-defense or similar circumstances is righteous.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 20, 2012 22:36:16 GMT -5
An off-duty cop recently stopped a public shooting. Guess what he did it with.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 21, 2012 5:32:07 GMT -5
Ha! I like the choice of words. There is murder, then there is killing. Up until your last post, we were talking about the latter. It would take some extreme circumstances for me to ever murder and in every single one I can think of, it would not be considered murder but killing for self-preservation or the preservation of others and in those cases yes, I do know how I would feel about it. Killing is only horrific to those that were raised to feel that way. I was raised to never murder but I was also raised to believe killing in self-defense or similar circumstances is righteous. Call it whatever you wish. It doesn't matter. My semantical mistake doesn't change the crux of the argument, which is that taking another man's life, regardless of the circumstances, is hard. I mean, why do you think cops have a mandated psych counseling every time they kill someone? Because killing is a stressful, far-reaching event that will have an impact on, no matter how justified it really was.
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Dec 21, 2012 11:18:26 GMT -5
So NRA are blaming video games. Who were they blaming before video games?
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 21, 2012 13:31:44 GMT -5
Ha! I like the choice of words. There is murder, then there is killing. Up until your last post, we were talking about the latter. It would take some extreme circumstances for me to ever murder and in every single one I can think of, it would not be considered murder but killing for self-preservation or the preservation of others and in those cases yes, I do know how I would feel about it. Killing is only horrific to those that were raised to feel that way. I was raised to never murder but I was also raised to believe killing in self-defense or similar circumstances is righteous. Call it whatever you wish. It doesn't matter. My semantical mistake doesn't change the crux of the argument, which is that taking another man's life, regardless of the circumstances, is hard. I mean, why do you think cops have a mandated psych counseling every time they kill someone? Because killing is a stressful, far-reaching event that will have an impact on, no matter how justified it really was. Hmm.... I disagree. I consider murder and killing to be two very different things. Taking another man's life is hard for you, that does not make it a universal rule. Cops have mandated psych evaluations because some may be emotionally affected and by making it mandatory, they remove the stigma for those too afraid to go for fear of looking weak, soft, etc. But don't take my word for it, here is a Q&A from a Police Psychology website answering that very question: So there you go, it covers literally any situation that is outside the normal. It could be a suspect that fought back really hard with fists, or just being in a situation where someone else had a shootout. A shootout would be stressful because the idea of dying is stressful to most people. It is not in place specifically because taking a life is hard. I would like some sort of objective data from you that proves taking a life in all situations is traumatic to the person not because the person had to deal with stressful factors, but because the person had to take a life. Not only that, but in the search for info on the psych evaluation, I came across a few police forums where many officers say they felt their time was wasted in such an evaluation. Now if these men were shattered to the core for taking a life, I doubt they would dismiss the validity of the tests. No, those tests are only for those who need it but are required for everyone. So NRA are blaming video games. Who were they blaming before video games? The NRA is just deflecting some of the heat away but they are not the only ones pointing their fingers at video games. So are the ultra-libs... the guys you are siding with. So you can't really turn your nose up at the NRA without looking like a hypocrite. In fact, the libs have been trying to tear down video games for decades. Same with violent TV and movies.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 21, 2012 13:56:35 GMT -5
Hmm.... I disagree. I consider murder and killing to be two very different things. Taking another man's life is hard for you, that does not make it a universal rule. No, obviously it is not a universal rule. Every man is different. My point is that you can't claim you wouldn't be affected by it until you actually do the deed. I googled psychology of killing and found one essay by a former US Marine NCO. One quote in particular stood out: ...Which is basically what you and I are doing right now. So I'm just gonna leave the link there and defer to someone who actually knows what the hell he's talking about.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 22, 2012 14:13:27 GMT -5
Hmm.... I disagree. I consider murder and killing to be two very different things. Taking another man's life is hard for you, that does not make it a universal rule. No, obviously it is not a universal rule. Every man is different. My point is that you can't claim you wouldn't be affected by it until you actually do the deed. I googled psychology of killing and found one essay by a former US Marine NCO. One quote in particular stood out: ...Which is basically what you and I are doing right now. So I'm just gonna leave the link there and defer to someone who actually knows what the hell he's talking about. Fair enough. I spoke with my friend in the army and his stance was basically that the marine was right about how I don't know if I would handle taking a life well. He went on to say that I was right that it depends entirely on your perspective and upbringing. Also whether or not you believe the kill was justified and your intelligence. Turns out, those with higher intelligence are far less likely to develop PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). He has been in active service since 2002, so I think it is safe to say he knows what he is talking about. He says he knows a great deal of people that handle their kills poorly and are haunted by them and he knows a great deal of people that are completely unaffected by their kills. According to him, I don't know for sure but based on what he knows about me personally, I am mentally well suited for the stresses of war. I have a moral belief system in place that can handle it and I am smarter than the average bear. This is not a guarantee but it is enough for me to believe without a reasonable doubt that I could handle a just kill or kills.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 22, 2012 14:39:07 GMT -5
Also, I found a viral post on FB that I thought was worth looking at. It is called, "A little gun history". It follows:
It goes on for a bit more about US media crucifying gun owners and blah blah blah. A little too much crying for me to want to copy it down. But then it went on with something else I personally verified:
This is true if lacking a bit of detail. Switzerland issues every person between the ages of 20 to 30 (34 if you are an officer) a fully automatic rifle and a side-arm for training in the militia. After discharge, you have the option of keeping your weapons. If you select to own your guns (as most do) it will be shopped to be reduced to a semi-automatic rifle.
Every citizen goes through rigorous training with their weapons and they do actually have the lowest gun-related crimes in the civilized world. Without a conceal and carry permit though, you are required to leave your guns at home unless you are transporting them for your training or inspection, as they closely monitor misuse of government-issued ammo.
This is without a doubt, the most ideal solution for me. Guns not only protect us from our neighbor, it also protects us from tyrannical government. While I don't see Obama raiding homes anytime soon, it is a possibility and one of the reasons the right to bear arms was put in place by the brilliant men who drew up our constitution and subsequently added the second amendment to the constitution in 1791.
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