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Post by Crom-Cruach on Dec 31, 2010 21:25:46 GMT -5
You say these things as if Cassandra Cain's story is 100% original? with Miscarriages? How many female heroes have been through that? Very very few characters are entirely original in any writing medium. You know that. Execution is what gives a trope or archetype value. I just happen to find Cassandra Cain ( for all the you can say she's not 100% original in her concept) a lot more interesting then Spoiler ever was. You say these things as if Cassandra Cain's story is 100% original? You've been there and done that with Miscarriages? How many female heroes have been through that? Outside of comics, plenty. It was always not very well executed either and seemed to only have been placed there as a means to make her more sympathetic. Executed poorly it just comes off as a cheap plot device. I never said that Stephanie "worked" to become Batgirl.I said she had alot of growing to do before reaching that point.Bats would have never asked Cassandra to give her the mantle if he thought she wouldn't be a good Batgirl. What Batman thinks is outside my point. I like Cassandra Cain better. Stephanie Brown is O.K but she never had anything in her that made me want to see take so major a role in the Bat family. While Cassie I do like the idea of having her around permanently (or at least as long as story permits until an awesome idea justifies otherwise. None have appeared so far)
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Post by Lord Barbatos on Dec 31, 2010 22:45:45 GMT -5
Yeah cass is a great character all right so great that they dont even know what to do with her ,damian is cassandra and jason perfected. He isnt an unbeatable assasin who then became a jobber (even gambler has admitted that aside from her first solo she hasnt done anything impressive) and unlike jason he has actually shown some emotion from time to time. Yeah no. Damian is one of the worst things that ever happened into the Batman series. He is a terrible and annoying character who's introduction did something abhorrent to two of the most interesting Batman characters ever written. Damian could get run over by a truck and the DC universe would be better for it. @vance: I disagree. Cassandra Cain has plenty of advancement possibilities. She disappeared just when she was getting somewhere, finally coming over all the hurt she had inside. Spoiler, miscarriage and all that. Been there, seen that. Not impressed. Personality wise she's still not anything really interesting to me. As to her working to become batgirl she only really became batgirl because Bruce told Cassie to give her the mantle and frankly everything in her storyline carrying that underdog vibe along with a personality I've seen time and again in other characters really makes her a lot less interesting then Cassandra Cain. How much damian have you read anyway? i'm willing to bet you did'nt read batman and robin,teen titans,superman/batman 78 , damian's contribution to the bat-mythos is already greater than cassandra's , get over it, that lame argument oh he's annoying doesnt work,all characters have different personalities to make them more unique, cass? she's a jobber who outside of her first solo,is normally portrayed at tim drake level(not bad ) , she's now stuck in limbo cause they did'nt even know what to do with her, and too bad damian is already on his way to surpassing pretty much all robins in popularity , so at this point DC could do well without cass not damian,and i'll take an interesting enjoyable character any day over someone with zero personality.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Dec 31, 2010 23:53:20 GMT -5
You say these things as if Cassandra Cain's story is 100% original? with Miscarriages? How many female heroes have been through that? Very very few characters are entirely original in any writing medium. You know that. Execution is what gives a trope or archetype value. I just happen to find Cassandra Cain ( for all the you can say she's not 100% original in her concept) a lot more interesting then Spoiler ever was. Outside of comics, plenty. It was always not very well executed either and seemed to only have been placed there as a means to make her more sympathetic. Executed poorly it just comes off as a cheap plot device. I never said that Stephanie "worked" to become Batgirl.I said she had alot of growing to do before reaching that point.Bats would have never asked Cassandra to give her the mantle if he thought she wouldn't be a good Batgirl. What Batman thinks is outside my point. I like Cassandra Cain better. Stephanie Brown is O.K but she never had anything in her that made me want to see take so major a role in the Bat family. While Cassie I do like the idea of having her around permanently (or at least as long as story permits until an awesome idea justifies otherwise. None have appeared so far) Execution is lost with Cassandra Cain.She has no real personality and everything dealing with her martial arts ability has been a weak display of growth.DC wants me to believe that being trained from a young age somehow makes you grow up to be damn near metahuman? And so she can surpass Batman in a short amount of time they took photographic reflexes from Marvel and called it something else.So Cassandra can learn all of these styles without actually having to go through what Bruce had to to master all the styles he did.Which takes alot away from the character. What ever point you were making about how Stephanie got the Cowl is lost with me.It's not like Cassandra filled a position that was already taken herself.Babs had been in a wheelchair for quite sometime before Cass became Batgirl.
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Post by Lord Barbatos on Jan 1, 2011 0:28:46 GMT -5
Is that you vance astro?
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 1, 2011 0:35:24 GMT -5
Yeah no. Damian is one of the worst things that ever happened into the Batman series. He is a terrible and annoying character who's introduction did something abhorrent to two of the most interesting Batman characters ever written. Damian could get run over by a truck and the DC universe would be better for it. @vance: I disagree. Cassandra Cain has plenty of advancement possibilities. She disappeared just when she was getting somewhere, finally coming over all the hurt she had inside. Spoiler, miscarriage and all that. Been there, seen that. Not impressed. Personality wise she's still not anything really interesting to me. As to her working to become batgirl she only really became batgirl because Bruce told Cassie to give her the mantle and frankly everything in her storyline carrying that underdog vibe along with a personality I've seen time and again in other characters really makes her a lot less interesting then Cassandra Cain. How much damian have you read anyway? i'm willing to bet you did'nt read batman and robin,teen titans,superman/batman 78 , damian's contribution to the bat-mythos is already greater than cassandra's , get over it, that lame argument oh he's annoying doesnt work,all characters have different personalities to make them more unique, cass? she's a jobber who outside of her first solo,is normally portrayed at tim drake level(not bad ) , she's now stuck in limbo cause they did'nt even know what to do with her, and too bad damian is already on his way to surpassing pretty much all robins in popularity , so at this point DC could do well without cass not damian,and i'll take an interesting enjoyable character any day over someone with zero personality. Agreed. And yes i'm Vance Astro.
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Post by Lord Barbatos on Jan 1, 2011 6:08:52 GMT -5
I thought so. LOL
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Post by masterprime64 on Jan 1, 2011 14:08:26 GMT -5
Of course
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Post by masterprime64 on Jan 1, 2011 14:09:25 GMT -5
Steph is funny with Damian
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 1, 2011 19:01:21 GMT -5
How much damian have you read anyway? i'm willing to bet you did'nt read batman and robin,teen titans,superman/batman 78 , damian's contribution to the bat-mythos is already greater than cassandra's , A statement this ridiculous only proves you haven't read enough Batman. And what Damian's introduction did to DC was abhorrent. Worst is I don't even think you know enough about the Batman mythos to actually understand why or what. get over it, that lame argument oh he's annoying doesnt work, Yes it does. He is annoying to me. And has contributed nothing to Batman any close to impressive And FYI if you aren't going to be polite prepare to be flagged. she's a jobber who outside of her first solo,is normally portrayed at tim drake level(not bad ) , Proof you haven't read much Batman. Or any of her important arcs. and too bad damian is already on his way to surpassing pretty much all robins in popularity And? Quality has nothing to do with popularity. Damian is the second worst robin there ever was in my opinion. He's added nothing to Batman's serie's actually worth it. And he's stained characters far better and more established then him. i'll take an interesting enjoyable character any day over someone with zero personality. Yeah you haven't been reading Batman very long. That much is clear. @vance: I really don't see where you're coming off with this. Her martial arts ability was always about it being a paradox. What was important about it was how she was stunted outside of it. It's comics and considering who trained her it makes sense she would be crazy lethal. Me what struck me about her was the moments outside of the fighting more. Like her trying to talk or starting to open up. The divide that came with it. Like the Fugitive arc where you hear Babs going on about how Bruce needs to talk to her because as Babs sees it. Cassie didn't think he was human, and she worshiped him. The combative abilities only heightened the concept of how broken she is. She's been made a killer and only now the rest was coming out. And when they finally were going somewhere with it. The crisis started again and then we got the RIP arc.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 1, 2011 19:56:24 GMT -5
@vance: I really don't see where you're coming off with this. Her martial arts ability was always about it being a paradox. What was important about it was how she was stunted outside of it. It's comics and considering who trained her it makes sense she would be crazy lethal. Me what struck me about her was the moments outside of the fighting more. Like her trying to talk or starting to open up. The divide that came with it. Like the Fugitive arc where you hear Babs going on about how Bruce needs to talk to her because as Babs sees it. Cassie didn't think he was human, and she worshiped him. The combative abilities only heightened the concept of how broken she is. She's been made a killer and only now the rest was coming out. And when they finally were going somewhere with it. The crisis started again and then we got the RIP arc. Right..it is comics and even comics have boundaries.Cassandra reached levels that most A-list superheroes with years of experience and training well beyond hers have been unable to reach.That's where I am coming from with this.It doesn't leave room for anything else.A character is only as good as their options and Cass doesn't have much of a personality so anything she's done outside of combat is way less interesting than what she did in it.That whole thing with her parents is lame.I've seen a similar story executed better.It's called..Runaways.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 1, 2011 19:59:31 GMT -5
A character is only as good as their options and Cass doesn't have much of a personality so anything she's done outside of combat is way less interesting than what she did in it.That whole thing with her parents is lame.I've seen a similar story executed better.It's called..Runaways. Never got into Runaways, I like Cassie more. I'll just agree to disagree since this is obviously a different strokes kinda thing.
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Killshot Caine
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Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 1, 2011 20:02:38 GMT -5
A character is only as good as their options and Cass doesn't have much of a personality so anything she's done outside of combat is way less interesting than what she did in it.That whole thing with her parents is lame.I've seen a similar story executed better.It's called..Runaways. Never got into Runaways, I like Cassie more. I'll just agree to disagree since this is obviously a different strokes kinda thing. Affirmative.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 1, 2011 20:04:53 GMT -5
On a related note. I much prefer Barbara as Oracle then I ever liked her as Batgirl.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 1, 2011 20:14:12 GMT -5
I like Babs either way.I liked her as Batgirl even more now as Oracle.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 1, 2011 20:17:46 GMT -5
Babs was cool as Batgirl. All I'm saying is I prefer her as oracle.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 1, 2011 20:49:44 GMT -5
Harley Quinn disguised as Babs disguised as Batgirl is better than all.
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Post by Lord Barbatos on Jan 2, 2011 1:03:13 GMT -5
How much damian have you read anyway? i'm willing to bet you did'nt read batman and robin,teen titans,superman/batman 78 , damian's contribution to the bat-mythos is already greater than cassandra's , A statement this ridiculous only proves you haven't read enough Batman. And what Damian's introduction did to DC was abhorrent. Worst is I don't even think you know enough about the Batman mythos to actually understand why or what. Yes it does. He is annoying to me. And has contributed nothing to Batman any close to impressive And FYI if you aren't going to be polite prepare to be flagged. Proof you haven't read much Batman. Or any of her important arcs. And? Quality has nothing to do with popularity. Damian is the second worst robin there ever was in my opinion. He's added nothing to Batman's serie's actually worth it. And he's stained characters far better and more established then him. i'll take an interesting enjoyable character any day over someone with zero personality. Yeah you haven't been reading Batman very long. That much is clear. @vance: I really don't see where you're coming off with this. Her martial arts ability was always about it being a paradox. What was important about it was how she was stunted outside of it. It's comics and considering who trained her it makes sense she would be crazy lethal. Me what struck me about her was the moments outside of the fighting more. Like her trying to talk or starting to open up. The divide that came with it. Like the Fugitive arc where you hear Babs going on about how Bruce needs to talk to her because as Babs sees it. Cassie didn't think he was human, and she worshiped him. The combative abilities only heightened the concept of how broken she is. She's been made a killer and only now the rest was coming out. And when they finally were going somewhere with it. The crisis started again and then we got the RIP arc. Okay now i dont know why you threatened to flag me since the 'he is annoying argument is lame' , its not directed towards you, i remember the amount of hate tony stark got for similar reasons and it made me very sad,and you're the one who questioned my intelligece more than once in your post.lets be clear now i've read more on damian than you its pretty obvious , i've read tons on cass as well, damian's contribution to the batmythos is greater than cassandra's, like it or not ,damian is cassandra cain properly executed as a character,her entire premise as a character was to find her mother(which she's done) and to become the best(which she's done)this leaves her with no other option other than to take on b-level fighters which she's been doing recently and jobbing in the process,even gambler (comicvine mod who's a huge fan of cass has admitted it) ,they turned her in to a villian,then they turn her back in to a hero,as you can see no proper direction and now she's in limbo,her recent appearences(red robin,outsiders,second solo,robin) portrayed her as red robin/nightwing level. Now damian , he has the same background as cass , he was raised to believe that he would be the next king of he planet(al ghul/wayne merger) talia even called him the next alexander,he was given the same upbringing as medieval princes/emperors,but what does he do? he turns it all away,defends dick grayson (calling him every bit worthy as wayne),damian's character relevance would have surpassed pretty much all batfam characters next year in INC second season where morrison has a huge arc planned, i love cassandra as well and i felt very insulted when you said that i havent read much batman(been an avid follower for near 2 decades).and damian's introduction has done a lot of positive things for dick and tim. But heh on the bright side we can agree on certain things like darkseid for example.
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Killshot Caine
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Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 1:29:06 GMT -5
We have a flag button?
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Post by Lord Barbatos on Jan 2, 2011 3:51:45 GMT -5
I thought so too.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 2, 2011 9:42:17 GMT -5
Now damian , he has the same background as cass , No, that is untrue. Their background, concepts as characters and purpose are not at all alike. he was raised to believe that he would be the next king of he planet(al ghul/wayne merger) talia even called him the next alexander,he was given the same upbringing as medieval princes/emperors. What Damian's introduction did to Talia and Ras was terrible. My hate for how he was introduced is only eclipsed by my hate for one more day. , i love cassandra as well and i felt very insulted when you said that i havent read much batman(been an avid follower for near 2 decades) Then how can you come to the conclusions you have? Some of then are just untrue in a factual sense. And if you feel insulted I apologize but I have trouble seeing your 2 decades of experience reading some of those posts.
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