Wolverine #7

[jakefury]

Sounds like dropping this was a good idea. Thanks for the review Lance.

[Erik-El]

1) I do not know what to tell you. I already explained how a correct choke hold will drop anyone in a matter of seconds. Force choking allows for that correct application. Also, Magneto suddenly believing he is a pre-Magneto little boy should not be influenced by the man he is today. Because for those few moments where the demon was in his head, Magneto was that little boy again.

2) Nothing changed except Wolverine engaging the demon in battle.

3) OR his location did not matter, only his proximity to the demon. I am sure Namor did not take an intentional dive at all. Oh and when has Namor ever been a smart fighter? I am sure Namor got into trouble the same way he always gets into trouble against people he should not have trouble with.

4) Sure is. Unfortunately you cannot really use that vast amount of power unless you actually have hold on your opponent long enough to do lasting damage.

The demon likely did continue the attack. Wolverine just obviously decided survival was the better part of valor.

The last portion of your point is waaaay to much of your imagination creating what you want to see in hopes that you can continue shit-canning the issue. Wolverine's claws extend and retract at 500 miles per hour. Seeing them out in one issue and retracted the next leads nothing to either argument at all.

[Lance]

1) A correct choke hold or not, it takes more then the few seconds Magneto was being choked to cause effects that severe. Unless Magneto had his wind pipe crushed, it wasn't on for any period of time that would cause severe weakness.

2) Wolverine engaging the demon doesn't make it any less powerful. Nothing caused it to weaken or falter. The cameo confirmed that even with them there, Wolverine didn't have a chance. It should have kicked Emma out easily.

3) Once again, Namor isn't known for sticking around in anyones proximity if they're weakening him so severely. He's not a smart fighter, and no one said he was. But he's not an idiot.

4) The speed at which they retract still doesn't mean anything if he didn't have a reason to retract them. And I don't need a reason to create any scenario to continue deadpanning a bad issue. Even Wolverine's line "get out of my head" indicates he means to attack. He was the one looking to instigate the fight and throw the first hit. The demon just hit him first. The dialogue and the art draws a pretty nice picture of Wolverine intentions. So... yeah.

[Erik-El]

1) You assume too much. I just read aloud through the scenes where he was choked and it was well over 15 seconds even without dramatic pauses. Magneto was lucky to even be conscious.

2) Again, you assume that. Which is a funny assumption because mine is the only one that makes even a lick of sense. No. The entire issue proved that Wolverine did not have a chance. But not having a chance and not distracting and even hurting his opponent are two VERY different things.

3) Yes he is known for that. When he is pissed off, he pretty much pulls a Hulk on his opponent until they are not moving anymore. His ego will not allow anything less. The only times he has not gone and done something really stupid like bee-lining someone who would easily defeat him, are when his friends talked him down. I saw no such friends around under that water or above.

4) Not true at all. Saying "Get out of my head" is NOT the same thing as jumping fist first into the demon. I have no idea why you think it is. You keep saying that Wolverine "meant" to attack and have indicated several times that he did attack but there is ZERO evidence to support this. All we see is Wolverine taking one hit, running and saying to himself that the fight will be at the fortress. Anything beyond that is you and your imagination.

[Admin]

Wolverine....used the force grip on Magneto

ALL BOW TO DARTH HOWLETTE

[Lance]

1) I got 12.36 without pauses. No one would pass out that fast unless they were winded to begin with.

2) Oh, so when the demon was dealing with Wolverine the first time Emma entered Logans mind, it wasn't distracted or busy. I see.

3) What exactly indicates that Namor was pissed at Wolverine? Was there some exposition I missed that gave a direct inference as to Namor mood and intention other then to Stop Wolverine and get him away from Magneto? That doesn't mean he's pissed, it just means he's doing his job. He did the same thing with Sentry in Utopia by trying to shift the field of battle and deter further casualties, but it's not like he was angry then. So exactly what in this instance was causing him to be angry?

4) No, drawing a weapon, yelling at the demon, and then the demon noting that Wolverine had no intention of being "reasonable". There's plenty of evidence to infer from in both the dialog and the art. So apparently events that logically lead to my scenario can't be inferred, but Namor's mood, the demon being weakened/unable to repel emma a second time, and Magneto being close to passing out (despite no cues from the dialog or art) can be.

[Erik-El]

1) I guess you are just a fast talker. And yes, people can pass out that fast anyway. But the point is that even if they do not, they are drained, dizzy and disoriented.

2) No. It was not. Busy and distracted are different things. Look them up if you do not believe me. Furthermore, Wolverine was not fighting it then.

3) Namor is always pissed. I am glad you know Namor well enough to know that he is a good little soldier though.

4) I am going to spell it out for you because it honestly seems that you really need it to be done.

Yelling at the demon, getting hit once, then being seen running the very next time he is seen is no indication that a battle happened. Unless you consider it a battle when only one person takes one hit that is.

Wolverine saying that the battle will take place elsewhere also indicates that there was no actual battle beyond the initial blow from the demon.... Oh and you know, the fact that Wolverine was still uninjured the next time we saw him also lends to that obvious scenario. There is no healing factor in his mind.

Issue 07 clearly shows the demon getting injured. He NEVER is shown being injured in issue 06. Injury can cause distraction and a shift in focus, thereby allowing Emma to get into the fight.

Right.... No cues from the dialog or art. I suppose you would have me believe that Magneto is just normally only powerful enough to desperately throw a manhole, then be completely spent. If you knew Magneto, you would know that he is normally capable of so much more. Furthermore, if you knew ANYTHING about a choke hold beyond the "vigorous" application of it in your personal life, you would know that 15 seconds will drop anyone into unconsciousness if applied correctly.

[Lance]

1) Dizzy, yeah, disoriented, yeah. Doesn't mean he was close to passing out.

2) I know the definitions of both. On can be distracted because they're busy. At the time, it was busy dealing with Wolverine.

3) Er, when was he being a good soldier? Since when has Namor ever listened or respected Scott? But him taking on Wolverine and lowering casualties to his team mates by getting him out of the area isn't out of character. You can keep being snarky about it, but it doesn't negate that.

4) No, of course it doesn't. Just, y'know, the demon actually restraining him in later pages does ;]



^ Once again, refer to image above. Just because he's making his final stand elsewhere doesn't mean that's where the battle begins. As you said earlier, it just means he realized the futility of it. Clearly he required the additional personalities assistance, and couldn't win the battle where he was, so he fled after the fact.

How? The multiple demons getting cut down still isn't a show that it's weakened. No cries of pain, nothing to show it was slowing down or dramatically effected.

Right. Because him throwing a man hole as offense as opposed to say, a car, or any other metallic object is a sign of his weakness. You and I both know that Magneto wasn't trying to kill or maim Wolverine, and we both know that in instances where he isn't looking to do serious damage, he holds back. LOL you keep on trying to bring up personal experience in a comic where personal experiences don't apply to fictional characters. Against something that I could apparently time as being twelve seconds in the first place. That's why EVERYONE in existence get's dropped when choked in fifteen seconds

[Erik-El]

1) Again, the proof is staring you right in the face. Please educate yourself on what happens when properly choked because I am tired of telling you the same thing over and over again.

2) How does that point lend to your argument at all? Dealing with Wolverine means nothing by itself because it has been doing that since Wolverine came back it his body and it did not seem to hinder the demon at all. Only when Wolverine fought back was there even a noticeable difference in power I.E. Emma being able to get in Wolverine's head.

3) I am surprised you missed the sarcasm because I was laying it on pretty thick. Taking on Wolverine because he believes himself to be the only one capable is much more in character than concern for his teammates. Furthermore, getting to water was likely the goal. I am sure he had no idea it would be turned on him like that but even if it had not, there would have been nothing effective Namor could have done, but he would have done it anyway.

4) Missed that. In any case, it still does NOT prove a battle happened. It proves that Wolverine took one hit and was held momentarily.

The fact that they are being cut proves that they are being damaged. That is what a cut is. Injury. Wolverine gets blown to pieces without so much as a sound. Does that mean he is uninjured when it happens? Of course not. That is ridiculous to even try and justify that.

Yes Magneto was. That was Cyclops' "Wolverine Kill Squad" that he threw together specifically to take Wolverine down permanently. That was what we see in issue 06 when Cyclops was running the danger scenarios. It is also right there at the end of the issue of 06 when Cyclops gives Magneto the order to kill Wolverine.

Personal experience counts with some things, even comics. How long can the average man hold his breath? That same information applies to comic book humans. How many bones in the human body? Well guess what, that also applies to comic book humans. How long can a human last before unconsciousness once choked? I will give you a hint: I have made a rather easy to follow pattern with my previous 2 examples.

I have been telling you the entire time that 15 seconds is the max, not the exact point that everyone drops at. Also, you need to read that scene again at a more realistic pace, not speed reading. There is also the elapsed time that Magneto was trying to recover. If nothing else in your entire argument, you are absolutely wrong on this point.