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Post by Crom-Cruach on Apr 20, 2011 14:09:36 GMT -5
This is a spin-off of the "Namor versus Wolverine thread". Whereupon it was touched upon by K4tz that some things that make no sense should just be accepted without it making sense and I argued against it.
So in accordance to suggestion I have started a thread. Basically I feel that too many times comics disregard science and previously established data about their own characters just to allow stuff they think would be cool but would actually be completely impossible.
Personally I hate this kind of thing. A character that can dance around Wolvie because of his speed should not get tagged by Shocker. A character that can shatter a mountain with a single punch should not have trouble utterly annihilating the insides of a character with the body density and structural strenght of just above human etc.
discuss.
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2011 14:11:27 GMT -5
I think when it's been established for decades as canon in comics, it must be accepted. The concept of Shocker tagging a focused Spider-Man is nonsense, but he's done so through the years and has against other foes. Having a writer now make him useless in that respect would just be spitting on the character.
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2011 14:12:03 GMT -5
The same opinion applies to Wolverine's durability showings.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Apr 20, 2011 14:13:13 GMT -5
I think when it's been established for decades as canon in comics, it must be accepted. I refuse this, because unless there is a logical, acceptable explanation within a comic universe's paradigm why this is possible. Then it just means a character has been badly written since day 1 Having a writer now make him useless in that respect would just be spitting on the character. no it would be putting in his place. Shocker was never a threat to spider-man he has none of what it takes. Saying he has for no acceptable reason is shitting on Spider-Man and treating the readers like idiots. |
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InnerVenom123
Team Buster Ledger
Venom: Lethal Avenger!
Posts: 2,570
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Post by InnerVenom123 on Apr 20, 2011 14:15:28 GMT -5
How does Superman fly, again?
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Apr 20, 2011 14:16:49 GMT -5
How does Superman fly, again? Kryptonia sun exposure powers, your point? |
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2011 14:22:35 GMT -5
Logical explanation: It's a comic character that originated in the silver age. Writers have kept him at that ability ever since and that his the character's established abilities.
Saying he was never a threat is going against established FACTS. What you mean is he SHOULDN'T be a threat, yes?
Hardly, considering previously he was struggling with an old man in Vulture costume that granted him the ability to fly and withstand some degree of a beating, as well as an old man with titanium arms flailing around.
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2011 14:27:41 GMT -5
This is exactly why I accept the numerous crazy displays of Batman's vanishing ability while someone is looking directly at him. It makes no sense. I don't care how much training you have, at the end of the day a well-trained human in armor and a cape can't "disappear" 15 feet in front of man staring directly at him (with lighting, too). I don't agree with this, but Wayne has been doing it for years now, so it's clearly established Batman can do that. I don't agree with it, but I accept it.
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Post by ckal on Apr 20, 2011 14:27:49 GMT -5
I've only read the OP but my thoughts on the subject are that characters and not always operating at their highest levels. Thus, it allows for some ambiguity and lee way for things to happen for the sake of plot, or whatever, that should not normally happen.
Also, it is tough to expect characters to always be on their best game possible. They can have off days as well even if they are trying hard. Plus, scenarios can have an impact.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Apr 20, 2011 14:28:53 GMT -5
Logical explanation: It's a comic character that originated in the silver age. Writers have kept him at that ability ever since and that his the character's established abilities. The Silver Age makes no sense and is illogical. It's cancerous influence must be purged from comics forever in order for proper writing to happen. Shocker has nothing that should allow him to have close to a realistic chance against spidey. Therefore everytime he is written as so is bad writing and whoever is responsible should be hated and scorned. Saying he was never a threat is going against established FACTS. What you mean is he SHOULDN'T be a threat, yes? Yes, logically speaking. And everytime he is is bad writing. Hardly, considering previously he was struggling with an old man in Vulture costume that granted him the ability to fly and withstand some degree of a beating, as well as an old man with titanium arms flailing around. just because more then 1 characters is badly written doesn't mean we should accept 1 instance of bad writting. |
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Apr 20, 2011 14:31:27 GMT -5
Eh. While it is wrong and should not be encouraged, it's not really that important to me. The simple facts are that writers are not scientists, and physics being accurate is not important to the overall story. Generally at least.
Besides, you're talking about characters being handled by dozens of different writers on a yearly basis. It's virtually impossible to maintain such rigid continuity under those conditions.
If it was just one writer, and he knew what the hell he was talking about, then yeah, it'd be inexcusable.
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2011 14:31:49 GMT -5
And many characters have undergone significant changes from that era or attempts have been made to establish how they can accomplish certain feats. But let's be honest, someone like SHOCKER will never be given that time of the day.
Logically, MANY of Spider-Man's foes should stand no chance if he's really focusing. But that's not the case. Still doesn't change the fact that Shocker's armor does indeed allow him to withstand Spider-Man's strikes, so one could dispute it's really just when Parker is up close that Shocker has the best odds (which come to think of it is usually what happens).
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Apr 20, 2011 14:34:22 GMT -5
Besides, you're talking about characters being handled by dozens of different writers on a yearly basis. It's virtually impossible to maintain such rigid continuity under those conditions. I disagree, they all work for Marvel all write marvel. If they did their fucking jobs and researched their characters they are writing as they should anyway, this wouldn't happen. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Apr 20, 2011 14:36:32 GMT -5
Logically, MANY of Spider-Man's foes should stand no chance if he's really focusing. But that's not the case. Which proves that it's bad writing and we shouldn't just blindly accept it, we should scorn it and disprove and certainly not use it as evidence when it's completely illogical. |
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spidey_17
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
With Great Power Comes Great.... suffering?
Posts: 4,961
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Post by spidey_17 on Apr 20, 2011 14:37:36 GMT -5
If someone's abilities has nothing to do with reality then we can't argue that they are badly written.
We have spider-man being bitten by a radioactive spider and instead of dying, he gets super human powers and a sixth sense that basically shows him the future. It makes no sense, but it's acceptable. It's his ability.
We have Wolverine who is super human, has a healing factor and adamantium bones. All these have nothing to do with reality, so you can't bring science to explain how he can take the hits that he is shown to be able to take.
But if you have an olympic level character like Moon Knight( there are olympic level people in reality ) being able to outrun bullets. then yes, that makes no sense and it's badly written.
But if you have a super human( nothing that has to do with reality and science ) doing stupid stuff, we can't really say that is badly written.
=]
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Apr 20, 2011 14:42:17 GMT -5
I disagree, they all work for Marvel all write marvel. If they did their fucking jobs and researched their characters they are writing as they should anyway, this wouldn't happen. Characters oscillate. That's only natural. Some writer will write a character as more powerful than usual, some will reel it back in. It's not necessarily a case of not doing the research, but conscious attempt to make a point about a character, or simply disagreement with what was written before. As writers, it is their prerogative to do so. Unfortunately, after 50 or so years, it tends to pile up into quite a mess of continuity. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Apr 20, 2011 14:46:11 GMT -5
Really, I mean really  If someone's abilities has nothing to do with reality then we can't argue that they are badly written. yes we can,when a story is written where a character is allowed to allow him to do things that are beyond what they are established as being able to do. We have spider-man being bitten by a radioactive spider and instead of dying, he gets super human powers and a sixth sense that basically shows him the future. It makes no sense, but it's acceptable. It's his ability. Once again totally beside the point. But I'll point out two things: A)In the marvel universe that is established as possible B)What such a power does and it's limits are established. Anything beyond them should trump it effortlessly. We have Wolverine who is super human, has a healing factor and adamantium bones. All these have nothing to do with reality, so you can't bring science to explain how he can take the hits that he is shown to be able to take. Yes you sure as hell can, because we know what his powers does. We know what how tough and durable his body is, we know what kind of damage roughly science wise certain abilities can produce. And therefore scientifically, logically and good writing wise. No Wolverine doesn't stay conscious from being smashed in the face by Thor hitting him with Mjolnir. But if you have a super human( nothing that has to do with reality and science ) doing stupid stuff, we can't really say that is badly written. =] Yes you can, when what is written is beyond what is define within the above human limit at hand. Like how strong spidey is, no he can't smash a mountain to rubble he's not that strong for example. Thor is however that's what is established as his strenght being. |
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Post by ckal on Apr 20, 2011 14:47:40 GMT -5
I actually think spidey has made a good point. Sometimes things may appear illogical because it literally doesn't exist in our reality. Wolverine's healing factor; is it illogical? We don't know because that doesn't exist.
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InnerVenom123
Team Buster Ledger
Venom: Lethal Avenger!
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Post by InnerVenom123 on Apr 20, 2011 14:50:26 GMT -5
How does Superman fly, again? Kryptonia sun exposure powers, your point? There was none. I was genuinely asking.  |
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spidey_17
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
With Great Power Comes Great.... suffering?
Posts: 4,961
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Post by spidey_17 on Apr 20, 2011 14:55:41 GMT -5
And Logan is said to be able to take Hulk level punches. This is what all the writers are trying to tell since most of them agree with that.
In the Marvel universe, Logan is established to be able to take these hits.
Spider-man has been established as a 10 toner. Based on comics and showings, he should be like a 25-30 toner. Logan has been established as a super human. Based on comics and showings his durability is enough to allow him to take Hulk level punches.
Based on his showings, we know how durable he is. He can take hulk level punches.
Indeed, spider-man can not destroy mountains because he has shown the inability to destroy less durable things. Logan on the other hand, he has not shown the inability to take these kind of hits.
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