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Post by Morpheus on May 13, 2011 18:48:33 GMT -5
I definitely agree to that, but part of what makes an assassin good is reliability. Deathstroke would likely ditch an assignment if he feels the cause is not worthy. That's cool because he's a great character, but bad for business.
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Post by Admin on May 13, 2011 18:48:45 GMT -5
"Also, his code and various circumstances do prevent him from fulfilling contracts." So by that do you believe he's not 'the best' because there's a chance he may not follow through with the contract/job?
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Post by NexusOfLight on May 13, 2011 18:49:28 GMT -5
Except as I point out, there are plenty of good ones and none can realistically be argued to be better then him. Don't you think that may have something to do with them not having the chance to make a name for themselves? Just out of the list you gave, Aphrodite IX only had one small mini, the Hunter-Killer group has about 20 comics total, and hardly any of them involve actual assassin/mercenary work, and Wolf has so few appearances that we can't make a decent battle thread with him in it, and Aphrodite IV only just became a player with the start of Artifacts, and that's probably gonna be the last we see of her there. And Tora No Shi was great, but me barely even being able to remember him seems to emphasize the point I'm making. Nottingham really doesn't have that much competition in the mercenary/assassin game. Yeah, he's definitely got skill, and could best a bunch of the guys in DC and Marvel, but part of the reason that he's the best in Top Cow is because out of all the assassins and mercenaries that get screen time, he gets the most, and that's probably due to the big role he played in Top Cow's longest running title, Witchblade.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on May 13, 2011 18:50:20 GMT -5
Deathstroke would likely ditch an assignment if he feels the cause is not worthy. That's cool because he's a great character, but bad for business. [/i][/quote] And yet nobody who knows the what and who's of the assassin Merc world in Dc would question that if you want something done perfect, you get the fucking terminator (remember the rules folks on talking about deathstroke, he's not just the Terminator, he's the fucking terminator)
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Post by Crom-Cruach on May 13, 2011 18:53:46 GMT -5
Don't you think that may have something to do with them not having the chance to make a name for themselves? It's because Top Cow being a smaller company only puts out so many comics... Just out of the list you gave, Aphrodite IX only had one small mini, where she skilled just about everyone she wanted to... the Hunter-Killer group has about 20 comics total, and hardly any of them involve actual assassin/mercenary work, and Wolf has so few appearances that we can't make a decent battle thread with him in it, and Aphrodite IV only just became a player with the start of Artifacts, and that's probably gonna be the last we see of her there. And Tora No Shi was great, but me barely even being able to remember him seems to emphasize the point I'm making. Nottingham really doesn't have that much competition in the mercenary/assassin game. Yeah, he's definitely got skill, and could best a bunch of the guys in DC and Marvel, but part of the reason that he's the best in Top Cow is because out of all the assassins and mercenaries that get screen time, he gets the most, and that's probably due to the big role he played in Top Cow's longest running title, Witchblade. The issue is that we know what these characters do for a living, that they are good at what they do and that they are feared for it. But Ian has better feats then any of them and has been said by all sources to be the best.
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Post by Morpheus on May 13, 2011 18:54:52 GMT -5
"Also, his code and various circumstances do prevent him from fulfilling contracts." So by that do you believe he's not 'the best' because there's a chance he may not follow through with the contract/job? It's a tough question. I think he's the more qualified, for sure, but Deathstroke (classic DS, at least) would either not take contracts he felt were unworthy (smuggling drugs, or killing politicians, for instance), or would eventually not go through with a job because it would go against his morals (or others would appeal to his morals - it happened with Black Canary and Nightwing).
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Post by Crom-Cruach on May 13, 2011 18:59:17 GMT -5
It's a tough question. I think he's the more qualified, Which in my opinion is all that matters to decide who is the best.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on May 13, 2011 19:05:13 GMT -5
I still say this guy: HE IS THE GOD OF ASSASSINS!!! WHY HASN'T ANYONE RECOGNIZED THE AWESOMENESS???
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Post by NexusOfLight on May 13, 2011 19:06:25 GMT -5
It's because Top Cow being a smaller company only puts out so many comics... I know the reason behind it. It still doesn't change the end result. where she skilled just about everyone she wanted to... Of course she did that. Were any of those people worth anything though? Not that I recall. They were essentially no named cannon fodder. Yeah, some were fearsome, but at the end of the day, they were all featless. The issue is that we know what these characters do for a living, that they are good at what they do and that they are feared for it. But Ian has better feats then any of them and has been said by all sources to be the best. We know what they do for a living, and we know they're good at it, yes. But again, how much noteworthy competition do they really have? The only time we really get to see what they're made of is when there's a crossover, but a lot of people like to exclude those as being non-canon, so what are we left with? The same few people who really don't have a name for themselves, and don't really get a chance to make a name for themselves. Ian's the only one who's been around long enough to do so, and as such it's extremely easy to point out that he's the best in his universe, and have the sources to back it up.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on May 13, 2011 19:14:45 GMT -5
Of course she did that. Were any of those people worth anything though? Not that I recall. They were essentially no named cannon fodder. Yeah, some were fearsome, but at the end of the day, they were all featless. Doesn't matter, the point is that she did kill them with frightening ease and they were said to be very fearsome. Therefore it's a feat for her universe. But again, how much noteworthy competition do they really have? Yes, again other characters that are named assassins. Compare Ian to what others (Aphrodite IV, Wolf, Hunter-Killer has done) Ian has done better until further notice he is the better of his universe The only time we really get to see what they're made of is when there's a crossover, but a lot of people like to exclude those as being non-canon, so what are we left with? In-universe crossovers in Top-Cow of Top Cow universe characters (Such as Witchblade/Magdalena, Cyber-Force/Darkness, etc) are all canon unless explicitly said otherwise. Hell, Sarah has phoned Hunter-Killer like 3 times since war of the witchblades...
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Post by Admin on May 13, 2011 19:15:00 GMT -5
that's because Logan has been at it A LOT longer and comic writing to pimp her out with her creation. Really anything X-23 can do, the chain smoking roach can do better. X-23 beat Wolverine's kill times. He is unarguably the better fighter and warrior. But she was born into assassination. That does not require as much H2H knowledge or a code of honor. When did that happen? I remember an impressive timing feat or two while on mission during ""Innocence Lost," but don't know how it would rack up in comparison to others.
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Post by NexusOfLight on May 13, 2011 19:34:51 GMT -5
Doesn't matter, the point is that she did kill them with frightening ease and they were said to be very fearsome. Therefore it's a feat for her universe. I'm not saying it's not a feat altogether. No, not at all. I'm just saying that taking out cannon fodder is something everyone with a solo series does. That combined with the fact that she didn't have anything else after those 6 short issues furthermore proves your initial statement, and the entirety of my case, most of Top Cow's assassins die off before making a name for themselves. Without making a name, there's very little to compare, so obviously the only one who actually has made a name is the one who will be looked upon as the best. Yes, again other characters that are named assassins. Compare Ian to what others (Aphrodite IV, Wolf, Hunter-Killer has done) Ian has done better until further notice he is the better of his universe Yes, Ian has done better. We both know this. You said it's not up for debate, I agree. That's not what I'm debating at all. Ian Nottingham is the best assassin/mercenary in the Top Cow universe. The simple question is why, and the simple answer is out of all of Top Cow's assassins and mercenaries, he's the only one who's been allowed a chance to shine. What have the Hunter-Killers done? Hardly anything. Why? Because they haven't been around as long, so they have very few appearances. What have the Aphrodites done? Hardly anything. The kicker with this, though is that they're not going to ever get a chance to do anything because IX's story is done, and IV's dead. Again, as you yourself said, she wasn't given a chance to make a name for herself. Where's Tora No Shi? He hasn't been anywhere. He only served as competition for Ian. Even killed him at one point. But since then, he's been gone. No one anywhere has heard from him again, and Ian has been left to continue growing as a character, giving us many more feats. In-universe crossovers in Top-Cow of Top Cow universe characters (Such as Witchblade/Magdalena, Cyber-Force/Darkness, etc) are all canon unless explicitly said otherwise. Hell, Sarah has phoned Hunter-Killer like 3 times since war of the witchblades... You know those aren't the crossovers I'm talking about. To make it clear, I'm speaking of out of universe crossovers like Daredevil/Magdalena, Cyberforce/X-men, Cyberforce/Justice League, Witchblade/Wolverine, you know, the type of crossovers that are non-canon unless otherwise stated.
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Post by Erik-El on May 13, 2011 19:41:55 GMT -5
X-23 beat Wolverine's kill times. He is unarguably the better fighter and warrior. But she was born into assassination. That does not require as much H2H knowledge or a code of honor. When did that happen? I remember an impressive timing feat or two while on mission during ""Innocence Lost," but don't know how it would rack up in comparison to others. I was referring to her kill time in training during Target X.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on May 13, 2011 19:49:09 GMT -5
Without making a name, there's very little to compare, so obviously the only one who actually has made a name is the one who will be looked upon as the best. Except with Ian we have more then that, in-universe he is said to be the best. What have the Hunter-Killers done Their solo series has their feats and capabilities shown. As comparison we have the cyber-force/hunter killer crossover. Again, as you yourself said, she wasn't given a chance to make a name for herself. Where's Tora No Shi? Tora No Shi is dead Ian killed him in the Deadpool arc where Kenneth died... No one anywhere has heard from him again, and Ian has been left to continue growing as a character, giving us many more feats. This is all true, but it doesn't matter. Of course we want to see more of them. We're sad we haven't. We want to see them kick ass and take names. That's a given. But that in itself is irrelevant to the topic at hand. What is relevant is this: -We have characters -We have seen what they can do -At the point we are now 1 character has shown better (Ian) and is said to be the best conclusion: that character is the best in his universe until further notice.
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Post by NexusOfLight on May 13, 2011 20:10:55 GMT -5
Except with Ian we have more then that, in-universe he is said to be the best. Yeah, but you and I both know that without the actual feats that back it up, those statements aren't worth much. Picture worth a thousand words an' all. Their solo series has their feats and capabilities shown. As comparison we have the cyber-force/hunter killer crossover. Their solo series has feats? Yes. Very few feats? Yes as well. How many feats does Ian have? How many times has he shown his worth against others? Tora No Shi is dead Ian killed him in the Deadpool arc where Kenneth died... Nope, he got resurrected by Sonatine in a Darkness issue, and killed Ian there. Ian then gets resurrected by Excalibur. I'll try and find the issue if you need it. Here's the comic vine page telling about it. This is all true, but it doesn't matter. Of course we want to see more of them. We're sad we haven't. We want to see them kick ass and take names. That's a given. But that in itself is irrelevant to the topic at hand. What is relevant is this: -We have characters -We have seen what they can do -At the point we are now 1 character has shown better (Ian) and is said to be the best conclusion: that character is the best in his universe until further notice. See, the thing is everything you just said was irrelevant, because that's not what I was talking about at all. Once again. Ian is the best. There's absolutely no dispute on that whatsoever. You seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to take that title away from him. I'm not at all. We both are also in agreement that Top Cow is a relatively small company. As such, only a handful of characters even get a name, and only a handful of that handful (like a baby handful or somethin') are given the chance to go on and actually do something. So far, Ian is the only guy in that baby's hand, because he's really and truly the only guy that has the statements and the feats backing him up. Everyone else in the Top Cow universe only has statements. Pictures worth a thousand words. He's the only guy who's got his picture taken.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on May 13, 2011 20:19:53 GMT -5
Yeah, but you and I both know that without the actual feats that back it up, those statements aren't worth much. Picture worth a thousand words an' all. And until we see more pictures from the others. Then all you're saying is that it's unfair that others don't have them. I haven't argued that, but we have what we have. You can talk about it all you want (and FYI the Top Cow thread does not have enough activity) But that won't change anything and is outside the question: as to who is the best?Do you understand what I'm saying? Their solo series has feats? Yes. Very few feats? Yes as well. How many feats does Ian have? How many times has he shown his worth against others? Everytime he has appeared and shown his abilities... Latest in Artifacts. Nope, he got resurrected by Sonatine in a Darkness issue, and killed Ian there. Ian then gets resurrected by Excalibur. I'll try and find the issue if you need it. Here's the comic vine page telling about it. Then he died again after Ian killed him again in the same story where Kenneth died. Check your comics. He's hanging dead from the ceiling while Ian and Kenneth have a chat. See, the thing is everything you just said was irrelevant, because that's not what I was talking about at all. Once again. Ian is the best. So far, Ian is the only guy in that baby's hand, because he's really and truly the only guy that has the statements and the feats backing him up. Everyone else in the Top Cow universe only has statements. Pictures worth a thousand words. He's the only guy who's got his picture taken. So what is your point? Why are you arguing? We have what we have, the feats we do have. I haven't disputed this. And you even agree Ian has more and better ones. So why are you arguing again? You seem to be complaining that other characters don't get enough screen time while at the same time acknowledging that I am correct. Only their lack of screen time, other then being sad because they are good characters, has little to do with the topic at hand other then proving a point we both aknowledge as true.
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Post by NexusOfLight on May 13, 2011 20:23:48 GMT -5
I'm not trying to complain, I was just pointing out that Ian being the best might have a lil' something to do with him getting the most screen time. That's all. Quite honestly, the discussion shoulda ended right here. There are plenty of assassins in Top Cow most just tend to die before they get a name. That's kinda the point I was trying to make.
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Post by jakefury on May 13, 2011 20:39:01 GMT -5
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Post by Erik-El on May 13, 2011 20:40:08 GMT -5
Lol I thought the only successful mass assassination the Marauders even had was Mutant Massacre.
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Post by jakefury on May 13, 2011 20:42:23 GMT -5
Quantity over quality?
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