Worse cases of CIS/WIS/PIS you've ever seen

[Silver]

Jul 8, 2011 11:16:01 GMT -5 Phantom Stargrave said:

Jul 8, 2011 10:55:06 GMT -5 Silver said:

I like how half of these are written by writers like Loeb or Byrne who are just not very familiar with Darkseid's powers.

Not as many as you'd think. Byrne actually wrote only one(albeit its retardedness more than makes up for it) fight between Darkseid in Superman. the one in the Legends tie in, which Evainer quickly retconned into being Desaad (That where the whole Desaad posing as him thing started. Loeb didn't write a lot of them either. Loeb did, however, write most of the stupid ones.

Byrne has written a few of them in New Gods, correct? Maybe not full-out, till KO fights but those sequences where Superman briefly attacks Darkseid, and Darkseid knocks him away. Also, did Loeb not write their encounters in OWAW? He did write the Superman/Batman ones. That is a fair number of battles between Supes and Darkseid just by one writer. Now, I made a mistake in that I initially thought that Loeb somehow wrote Apokolips Now; so that does diminish another fight from Loeb's list of Superman/Darkseid fights.

Also, I was just listing Loeb and Byrne as a couple of the writers not very familiar with Darkseid. There are others as well.

[Phantom Stargrave]

Somewhere in between zero and none. ;D

About the only thing they're equal is strength. but Darkseid has such a vast array of powers that, if he ever used them properly, he could walk through the guy.

[Silver]

I remember reading threads on CV where users would claim that Superman can resist the OE because he actually intended to (as in a New Gods comic, Darkseid asked how he could survive when no one has before, and Superman responds, paraphrased, "Maybe because they never tried"). Or how Darkseid teleporting someone using the Omega beams is somehow entirely different than simply causing physical force, transmutation, erasing, etc.

[Silver]

90% of Doomsday fights.

[Phantom Stargrave]

Jul 8, 2011 11:22:35 GMT -5 Silver said:

Jul 8, 2011 11:16:01 GMT -5 Phantom Stargrave said:

Byrne has written a few of them in New Gods, correct? Maybe not full-out, till KO fights but those sequences where Superman briefly attacks Darkseid, and Darkseid knocks him away. Also, did Loeb not write their encounters in OWAW? He did write the Superman/Batman ones. That is a fair number of battles between Supes and Darkseid just by one writer. Now, I made a mistake in that I initially thought that Loeb somehow wrote Apokolips Now; so that does diminish another fight from Loeb's list of Superman/Darkseid fights.

Also, I was just listing Loeb and Byrne as a couple of the writers not very familiar with Darkseid. There are others as well.

Sorry, Silver, didn't see your post, I was responding to Devias.

Byrne directly wrote only Jack Kirby's fourth World, in which there surprisingly aren't any Darkseid/Superman fights. As for Loeb, he also wrote only the main Superman book during OWAW. At least one of their fights was written by Mark Shultz, and I'm not sure about the other.

In fact I think the ones in Superman/Batman are the only ones Loeb directly wrote. Of course, between them they still hold the credit for all the battles Darkseid actually lost.

[Silver]

Jul 8, 2011 12:03:53 GMT -5 Phantom Stargrave said:

Sorry, Silver, didn't see your post, I was responding to Devias.

In fact I think the ones in Superman/Batman are the only ones Loeb directly wrote. Of course, between them they still hold the credit for all the battles Darkseid actually lost.

No problem.


This always seemed interesting to me. For all the times Darkseid has been misrepresented as losing to Superman, there only seem to be two or three actual losses. In most cases, I see Darkseid just knock Superman away, or Superman used some weak plot device, like causing Darkseid to hit himself with his own beams, to weaken him, as was the case in Legends for example.

[Phantom Stargrave]

Basically, yes. There is only one or two times Darkseid actually looses through fair battle. Ther rest are either interrupted or plot deviced to make him loose.

But really, the fact that those are even allowed shows just how little respect they've had for him over the past decade.

[Silver]

Well, really, if it was any other DC hero besides Superman, they probably would have lost. Obviously, some other heroes have "beaten" Darkseid (usually through weak plot devices as well, such as the Atom or Doctor Fate), but Superman is Superman. And writers establish that very clearly. Place Flash or Captain Atom or Wonder Woman against Darkseid in a straight fight, and chances are, they would lose (Diana was already knocked around by him in The Rock of Ages once).

Addendum: Nothing against Superman at all, but he is given a certain level of respect from writers wherein he is portrayed as the greatest hero (which I believe he is). But writers have a habit of mistaking heroism with power, and thus, Superman has to be the one to solve all major crises. Can I necessarily fault writers for coordinating events so that Superman would handle the problem? Not completely, mainly because it just would not mean as much if another hero saved everyone. If Flash or Green Lantern or Aquaman were instead chosen to engage the final fight against Superboy Prime in Infinite Crisis, for instance, it just would not have carried as much weight. Obviously, Superman is not unbeatable; he has suffered losses, just like everyone else does. But in most major events or even isolated story arcs with several heroes, he is usually the one picked to resolve the final conflict, regardless of whether he is the most qualified to or not.

[Khaos King]

the biggest case of PIS/WIS recently was the Hulk fight with the amped up Wendigo and the two face monsters both already 100+ bricks that can give Hulk a run for his money in a solo fight and should stomp him when they are supercharged and turned into giants the size of buildings.

Hulk was able to fight them and hurt them. *eye roll*

[Phantom Stargrave]

Jul 8, 2011 12:32:12 GMT -5 Silver said:

Well, really, if it was any other DC hero besides Superman, they probably would have lost. Obviously, some other heroes have "beaten" Darkseid (usually through weak plot devices as well, such as the Atom or Doctor Fate), but Superman is Superman. And writers establish that very clearly. Place Flash or Captain Atom or Wonder Woman against Darkseid in a straight fight, and chances are, they would lose (Diana was already knocked around by him in The Rock of Ages once).

Addendum: Nothing against Superman at all, but he is given a certain level of respect from writers wherein he is portrayed as the greatest hero (which I believe he is). But writers have a habit of mistaking heroism with power, and thus, Superman has to be the one to solve all major crises. Can I necessarily fault writers for coordinating events so that Superman would handle the problem? Not completely, mainly because it just would not mean as much if another hero saved everyone. If Flash or Green Lantern or Aquaman were instead chosen to engage the final fight against Superboy Prime in Infinite Crisis, for instance, it just would not have carried as much weight. Obviously, Superman is not unbeatable; he has suffered losses, just like everyone else does. But in most major events or even isolated story arcs with several heroes, he is usually the one picked to resolve the final conflict, regardless of whether he is the most qualified to or not.

Excellent analysis, and I agree completely.

Although I must say Atom's defeat of Darkseid was a very awesomely written sequence, and I'm not just saying that because it's Grant Morrison.

[Crom-Cruach]

World War Hulk and One more Day

[Geraldthesloth]

All I have to say is.

"My drunken fist gives no forwarning"

[Silver]

Jul 8, 2011 13:09:14 GMT -5 Phantom Stargrave said:

Jul 8, 2011 12:32:12 GMT -5 Silver said:

Well, really, if it was any other DC hero besides Superman, they probably would have lost. Obviously, some other heroes have "beaten" Darkseid (usually through weak plot devices as well, such as the Atom or Doctor Fate), but Superman is Superman. And writers establish that very clearly. Place Flash or Captain Atom or Wonder Woman against Darkseid in a straight fight, and chances are, they would lose (Diana was already knocked around by him in The Rock of Ages once).

Addendum: Nothing against Superman at all, but he is given a certain level of respect from writers wherein he is portrayed as the greatest hero (which I believe he is). But writers have a habit of mistaking heroism with power, and thus, Superman has to be the one to solve all major crises. Can I necessarily fault writers for coordinating events so that Superman would handle the problem? Not completely, mainly because it just would not mean as much if another hero saved everyone. If Flash or Green Lantern or Aquaman were instead chosen to engage the final fight against Superboy Prime in Infinite Crisis, for instance, it just would not have carried as much weight. Obviously, Superman is not unbeatable; he has suffered losses, just like everyone else does. But in most major events or even isolated story arcs with several heroes, he is usually the one picked to resolve the final conflict, regardless of whether he is the most qualified to or not.

Excellent analysis, and I agree completely.

Although I must say Atom's defeat of Darkseid was a very awesomely written sequence, and I'm not just saying that because it's Grant Morrison.

True. That was an enjoyable scene.

[Beatboks]

Jul 8, 2011 11:18:47 GMT -5 devias said:

So, in a battle without any stupidity, how much chance does Superman stand against Darkseid?

SFA. (sweet f%k all ) IMHO

[Accord_Royal1738]

[Painkiller]

Jul 8, 2011 18:02:53 GMT -5 Accord_Royal1738 said:

Someone needs to show this to InnerVenom!

[Beatboks]

Almost any SS loss stalemate

[Admin]

Ah, the infamous Venom vs Juggernaut...

[Geraldthesloth]

Every Gladiator appearance is a showing of CIS on his part.

[Strafe Prower]

Firelord vs. Spider-man
Black Lightning's "shield struggle" in JLA