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Post by Dane on Aug 1, 2011 0:55:03 GMT -5
Location: Steve Rogers (A) vs Lady Shiva (B) Equipment: Steve gets his Shield, Sandra Wu-San is unarmed. Rules: Morals on. Elimination by all standard means.
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Post by Admin on Aug 1, 2011 0:56:45 GMT -5
/grabs popcorn
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Painkiller
Team Buster Ledger
?I?m sorry, did I ruin your concentration??
Posts: 2,407
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Post by Painkiller on Aug 1, 2011 1:49:30 GMT -5
Rogers. He's faster, stronger, smarter and has an unbreakable shield.
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Post by Admin on Aug 1, 2011 2:00:38 GMT -5
No clue who wins, but I couldn't resist.
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Painkiller
Team Buster Ledger
?I?m sorry, did I ruin your concentration??
Posts: 2,407
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Post by Painkiller on Aug 1, 2011 5:14:56 GMT -5
No clue who wins, but I couldn't resist. Basically that's what'll happen. Though, Cap won't be as brutal.
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Post by Morpheus on Aug 1, 2011 6:08:20 GMT -5
LOL
Gambler isn't here, so who the heck is going to defend Sandra?
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Post by Dane on Aug 1, 2011 8:56:41 GMT -5
Vance? Idk, I figured it'd be a good fight.
He has an edge in physical stats and she has a bit of an edge in martial arts skill.
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Post by Morpheus on Aug 1, 2011 9:22:15 GMT -5
I actually agree that it's not only good, but a great fight, just saying I doubt anyone knows/likes Shiva enough to side with her. I've read a good deal of her material, but not all in order to form an absolute opinion.
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Aug 1, 2011 9:31:12 GMT -5
Crom might be able to give a solid opinion for Shiva.
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Aug 1, 2011 9:35:18 GMT -5
It would be silly to say Batman = Cap' America. Shiva > Batman. Because we know ABC doesn't work here. ;D
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Post by Dane on Aug 1, 2011 10:38:45 GMT -5
Well, I know that the feats might say it but I don't think Bruce Wayne is physically equal to Steve Rogers. They might bench similar amounts and Wayne's strength is obscene and fantastical for a trained human but all-round, logically he just isn't the same as Captain America. He's not as agile as Dick Grayson for one thing. So a human acrobat is already better than him. That isn't the case for Captain America. There is no human faster, stronger, more agile, anything than him. He's it. So I give a strong physical advantage to Rogers in this match.
That and his fighting style, whilst at a similar level, is really very different. Batman is basically a really, really good mixed martial artist. I say that with no reference to MMA fighting, just he has enormous martial arts knowledge and more or less picks his moves from each style that he likes and incorporates it into one fighting style.
That's not like Cap or like Shiva. Shiva might know a lot of styles but she mostly used Kung Fu. She has a very graceful, delicate, precise style. Captain America is highly skilled but his moves seem to come a lot more from Boxing, Judo, Karate, Taekwondo and of course his own Shield-Fighting style. All of those are based on hitting someone really hard until they fall over. He can throw some nerve-strikes in but against most h2h combatants he's basically going to bludgeon the shit out of them with his fists/shield until they fall over. Lady Shiva is the opposite really. She'll use whatever kind of weakness or precise strike she can to incapacitate or kill. From a martial arts stand-point it's a different emphasis.
On the whole, if I'm honest, I think Lady Shiva has the technique and fighting skill advantage. She certainly has a wider range of martial arts knowledge. Whether more range equals a better fighter... I don't know. To bring it into perspective, most people who win real fights using martial arts they've learned do not do it by using 50 different strikes from different schools in some obtuse Capcom-style combo. They win it by doing a couple of strikes with great effect. I know from Taekwondo there are 36 different kicks in the martial art. Front up to any tournament you like, from the junior white belts to the Olympics and you won't see more than 6 different kicks. And half of them are kicks you wouldn't even bother with in a street fight.
But comics don't necessary work like that. Lady Shiva is easily one of the top martial artists in DCU and would be a good match for most street levelers regardless of their physical stats. I wouldn't have made the thread if I thought it was easy to call. My knowledge of Sandra Wu-San is very, very far from all encompassing. On the other hand I grew up reading Captain America. Hard not to be bias really but I'd say whoever comes out on top should be by a very thin margin.
Thoughts?
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 1, 2011 14:11:45 GMT -5
Alright, I was going to stay out of this one. But since it's been requested I'll oblige. Now bear with me because this is going to be a lengthily post and I'm going to address several things before I give my opinion on the topic at hand. First things first. On the Bruce Wayne versus Steve Rogers debate. Everyone puts forth that Steve is superior physically. I can agree that theorethically he is. However, I've often pointed out that on panel there is close to zero evidence that it is the case. Bruce Wayne's physical feats seen on panel equal Steve's. And that is a very important point to me in the ongoing and eternal debate of Steve Rogers versus Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne routinely performs feats that are flat out impossible for anyone with human level physical, even peak or pushing slightly over it. But allegedly he's only human. Now I'm not saying this as a "BATMAN IS DA GRETERZ!" argument but simply pointing out what we see on panel and what we know. One thing however is that Bruce Wayne definitively has the edge in skill. Taking on characters above the skill level of Steve and either winning or putting on a great show (WIS and CIS aside). Similarly, there is no question in my experience that Bruce is smarter. All these things together are why I still believe Bruce Wayne would beat Steve Rogers. Now, with this in mind. As I have said, theoretically Steve is better physically. I can accept that, and can take this argument as valid in a debate but if that is the case. Functionally speaking, the difference would be minimal enough that it wouldn't be the deciding factor, in fact it couldn't. See DC doesn't have a dividing factor really of physicals at the street level like marvel. Peak human, Olympic, enhanced human. These divisions don't exist in DC. You either have human level (whom in DC means routinely performing at superhuman levels) and Super-human meaning what it says on the tin. Deathstroke is super-human. Bruce "isn't" sort of A similar issue exists with Dick Greyson. Dick is allegedly more agile then Bruce Wayne. Only on panel evidence has never shown Dick ever performing feats of agility better then Wayne. In fact it's the opposite, based on panel evidence. Bruce Wayne is not only more agile, but has better reflexes as well. Combined with his vastly superior skill, superior strength and stamina. Bruce would, based on evidence see on panel, flatten his ass then take his woman This brings us to the matter of Shiva proper and the general problem with martial artists in DC. In DC there is a general "acknowledged" ladder of skill from best to worst. It's by no means completely concrete. But some of the levels are pretty solidly defined. This "aknowledged" ladder of skills is what the writers themselves have said, out-character and by narration on who is supposedly the best martial artist all around. Key word here, supposedly. The best are improperly used as measuring sticks for lesser or new characters to beat so as to give them chops. Chops that by all sense they would have no chance to get because by logic it would be impossible for them to win. And in fact, inconsistent writing has such characters beating the best, then getting their ass handed to them by characters nowhere as skilled as those best. Worse, these best in 1 comic lose to characters that are clearly their inferior. Then several comics after, when they are seen again, lay waste to groups of heroes better then the ones they've lost too. Shiva particularly suffers from this, more so because on the acknowledged ladder. She is supposed to either be "the" best or the second best with Richard Dragon. But she's lost many times to characters that by all rights she should walk all over. Now with this in mind. I'm giving my opinion based on the fact that I agree and believe that is as good as it is said she is. At her peak, Bruce Wayne simply flat out stated he couldn't take her (even if he did in later comics ). This means that she should have quite enough physicals to keep up with Steve. However... Steve's shield is a plot device and a big factor against any unarmed opponent. And because of the insane physicals Steve routinely performs at. I give it to him, he has a big indestructible wall to put in front of Shiva's fists and that is an edge that combined with his levels of skill would give him the win in my opinion.
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Aug 1, 2011 14:25:51 GMT -5
The best are improperly used as measuring sticks for lesser or new characters to beat so as to give them chops. Chops that by all sense they would have no chance to get because by logic it would be impossible for them to win. And in fact, inconsistent writing has such characters beating the best, then getting their ass handed to them by characters nowhere as skilled as those best. You'd hate the new Red Robin comic then. Cass appears in it. Gets her arsed kicked by some unknown. I'm a big fan of Cass. Love her to bits. And this upset me.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 1, 2011 14:30:47 GMT -5
You'd hate the new Red Robin comic then. Cass appears in it. Gets her arsed kicked by some unknown. I'm a big fan of Cass. Love her to bits. And this upset me. I've hated how Cass has been treated since before it was cool.
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Post by Morpheus on Aug 1, 2011 14:31:35 GMT -5
They said the guy who beat her is speedster level fast. What can you do, she isn't Deathstroke, you know.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 1, 2011 14:32:24 GMT -5
They said the guy who beat her is speedster level fast. What can you do, she isn't Deathstroke, you know. *weeps incoherently*
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 1, 2011 14:35:12 GMT -5
They said the guy who beat her is speedster level fast. What can you do, she isn't Deathstroke, you know. LOL.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 1, 2011 14:37:44 GMT -5
I think Shiva can beat Captain America.His shield isn't going to be that much of an issue.It never seems to be when he fights other street levelers..they are all still able to land critical shots.Shiva is simply the better fighter.The shield isn't attached to Cap like Wolverine's claws are to him.It can be taken from him.
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Aug 1, 2011 14:53:54 GMT -5
They said the guy who beat her is speedster level fast. What can you do, she isn't Deathstroke, you know. Did you have a scan of her stopping Slade's attacks quite easily? ;D
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Post by Morpheus on Aug 1, 2011 14:55:44 GMT -5
They said the guy who beat her is speedster level fast. What can you do, she isn't Deathstroke, you know. Did you have a scan of her stopping Slade's attacks quite easily? ;D Sure I do. Also got the scan where she says he's faster than she is.
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