|
|
Post by Dane on Aug 14, 2011 17:38:25 GMT -5
Just a little philosophical debate we had in the staff section. It started off as a discussion on whether the Force is magical or not (since It's all about SW these days), but quickly evolved into the definition of magic in general. Feel free to join in. -Sovereign The Force isn't magic you goon 
|
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Aug 14, 2011 18:03:45 GMT -5
The Force isn't magic you goon I thought any true Star Wars fan is supposed to foam at the mouth at the mere hint of midi-chlorians. |
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Aug 14, 2011 21:00:42 GMT -5
The idea of midi-chlorians is stupid. But then again so is 'genetic mutation' causing people to shoot lasers out of their eyes.
The Force is an energy field created by life. Force-users are 'strong' in the Force. Meaning in-tune to it and able to manipulate it. That isn't magic. Magic, by definition isn't explained. Once you explain something it is no longer magic.
|
|
Zoom
Team Buster Ledger
Forever, Rose
Posts: 2,435
|
Post by Zoom on Aug 14, 2011 21:12:54 GMT -5
The idea of midi-chlorians is stupid. But then again so is 'genetic mutation' causing people to shoot lasers out of their eyes. Oh, no. Haven't you heard? It's a portal to a universe of lasers...in his eyes. |
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Aug 14, 2011 21:25:27 GMT -5
Yeah I'm aware of that. Which is even fucking stupider than before.
|
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Aug 14, 2011 21:45:45 GMT -5
The idea of midi-chlorians is stupid. But then again so is 'genetic mutation' causing people to shoot lasers out of their eyes. The Force is an energy field created by life. Force-users are 'strong' in the Force. Meaning in-tune to it and able to manipulate it. That isn't magic. Magic, by definition isn't explained. Once you explain something it is no longer magic. Could not the same be said of Magic-users? Ones who are in-tune with magic, which seems to be explained in comics as just an abstract kind of energy or whatever. |
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Aug 14, 2011 21:57:55 GMT -5
Erik-El No, as I said magic as a word is defined by being unexplained. By definition magic is everything that science cannot or does not explain. Once it has been explained, even as a comic-book pseudo science it is no longer magic. Doctor Strange might call what he does magic but if he understands it on a conceptual level in the same way he once understood medicine as a doctor then it is not magic to him, but powers he is able to manipulate. It is magic to most other characters as they do not understand it. Iron Fist doesn't call his chi manipulation magic, though to most others who don't know what he is doing it is magic. Just because a writer uses words he does not understand (something I consider a grievous crime against yourself) doesn't alter the definitions of those words. ckal No, I don't read Conan.
|
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Aug 14, 2011 23:37:25 GMT -5
Erik-El No, as I said magic as a word is defined by being unexplained. By definition magic is everything that science cannot or does not explain. Once it has been explained, even as a comic-book pseudo science it is no longer magic. Doctor Strange might call what he does magic but if he understands it on a conceptual level in the same way he once understood medicine as a doctor then it is not magic to him, but powers he is able to manipulate. It is magic to most other characters as they do not understand it. Iron Fist doesn't call his chi manipulation magic, though to most others who don't know what he is doing it is magic. Just because a writer uses words he does not understand (something I consider a grievous crime against yourself) doesn't alter the definitions of those words. I disagree with this. That would mean that every magic wielder with an understanding of the magic they manipulate would no longer be able to classify their magic as such simply because they understand it. The only qualification for magic cannot be ignorance in its use. That just sounds completely wrong to me. |
|
Lance
Team Buster Ledger
It's never Lupus
Posts: 2,524
|
Post by Lance on Aug 14, 2011 23:58:14 GMT -5
All magic is just science Hank Pym hasn't explained yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Aug 15, 2011 1:39:02 GMT -5
Just because you don't like the definition of a word doesn't make it the definition any less. The only reason lightbulbs aren't considered magic is because we understand how they work. When you were a child, whether you like it or not many things would have been magic to you because you didn't understand how they worked. Your mother puts in bread and gets toast out. The fact that you have a toaster doesn't make it less magical without a basic understanding of thermodynamics. If she did it in the 1400s her ass would have got drowned. To a child's mind she straight transmuted the shit out of that bread.
If it helps you, in comics "Magic" applies to any energy or power which derives from supernatural, arcane or demonic sources. Doctor Strange uses magic that derives from the benevolent supernatural beings he communications with, like Oshtur, Agamotto, Hoggoth, etc. But when he uses powers like telepathy and astral projection he doesn't invoke anyone. Those are his powers. He doesn't even use an incantation. He can astrally project to an unlimited degree under his power. Not anyone elses. Demons like Mephisto can be called upon to perform infernal magic. That is a very native concept to us. Calling up a demon to use magic is biblical. But what about when Mephisto does something of his own accord? He doesn't invoke himself. He is Mephisto. The magic is his to begin with. It's his native reality warping ability, when he was born or created he already had it. It's as normal to him as walking is to us. Magic is a blanket term used to describe the things he does that you don't understand. There are fields of magic because there are a variety of sources of power.
Let me ask you something? Does Thor do magic?
If so, why? If not, why not?
He can summon lightning because he's a God. Mephisto can summon fire and brimstone because he's a Demon. Those aren't different even if you call one magic and one innate power. They themselves are the source of their power.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Aug 15, 2011 1:56:37 GMT -5
In another way, you can view the word "magic" and equal to and a representation of the word "supernatural". It doesn't have to be "It's magic because I don't understand it". There is also "It's magic because it is supernatural".
Why is the lightbulb not supernatural? Because electricity is a naturally occurring thing. Why is Thor's lightning magic? Because it is supernatural. He overrode the natural weather patterns by using his own supernatural energy.
But here is why magic is the unknown. An electrician manipulates energy to connect your TV set. You're not afraid of him because although you may not be an electrician yourself, you understand he is using technology and his understanding of electricity to manipulate that energy.
Different scenario, Mephisto shows up in your living room and summons a ball of fire in the palm of his hand. You shit absolute bricks. Why? You didn't think "Oh no, the energy used to produce that fire is SUPERNATURAL OH FUCK". What you're afraid of is the fact that he can do things you don't understand and he's likely to start doing more of it. Magic is magic because people fear the unknown and magic is the unknown. But it's also supernatural. You see the energy used to create a ball of fire is probably much less than the energy generated by the power station that is pumping juice into that TV set of yours. In terms of scale, Mephistos fireball has much less ability to kill you than getting electrocuted by a frayed cable from the TV. It's just more likely to do so because he's a big red demon.
Another example: Green Lantern (Alan Scott)'s Ring vs Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)'s Ring. One is magic, the other is not. The scale of power is not different. The source is.
We know Hal's ring produces power from the Green Lantern Battery. It's like a big green power station and we can see it with our eyes. It gets explained that Hal's ring gathers willpower from across the Universe and his ring is little more than a well-made amplifier. Not scary, my friend's car has an amplifier. Alan Scott's ring? Oh, it's magic. If you wanted a better explanation you can go ahead and get fucked because it's not happening. It's magic, deal with it.
It's magic for two reasons.
A) It's supernatural in it's source of power.
B) No one will ever explain how that works because the minute they offer a decent explanation you have the same mental response that you did when you learned how a toaster works. "Oh.. ok." It's no longer magical or interesting.
When a kid shows you an illusion using playing cards it's magic. When he shows you how he did it, the it becomes a card trick because you know how it works and it, now devoid of any supernatural elements, loses all intrinsic value.
|
|
Zoom
Team Buster Ledger
Forever, Rose
Posts: 2,435
|
Post by Zoom on Aug 15, 2011 2:30:05 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Aug 15, 2011 2:35:02 GMT -5
I said a child can't.
|
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Aug 15, 2011 9:55:27 GMT -5
Dane: Of course Thor does magic. He is a magic based character but he understands the magic he uses. Why should that automatically mean he is somehow not doing magic anymore? Likewise I suppose Strange is no longer a magic wielder simply because he has an understanding of what he is doing. That is bullshit. It is still magic. Just because he knows what he is doing does not mean it stops being magic and instead becomes something else. Before Strange became acquainted with it, it was magic. After he does, it is still magic. When has Strange ever slapped his forehead and said, "By golly, this whole time I was never using magic, I was using auto-fucking-win-energy!"?
|
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Aug 15, 2011 10:12:24 GMT -5
Dane: Of course Thor does magic. He is a magic based character but he understands the magic he uses. Why should that automatically mean he is somehow not doing magic anymore? Likewise I suppose Strange is no longer a magic wielder simply because he has an understanding of what he is doing. That is bullshit. It is still magic. Just because he knows what he is doing does not mean it stops being magic and instead becomes something else. Before Strange became acquainted with it, it was magic. After he does, it is still magic. When has Strange ever slapped his forehead and said, "By golly, this whole time I was never using magic, I was using auto-fucking-win-energy!"? I'm reminded of the inversion of Arthur Clarke's third law: Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology. |
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Aug 15, 2011 10:20:05 GMT -5
Dane: Of course Thor does magic. He is a magic based character but he understands the magic he uses. Why should that automatically mean he is somehow not doing magic anymore? Likewise I suppose Strange is no longer a magic wielder simply because he has an understanding of what he is doing. That is bullshit. It is still magic. Just because he knows what he is doing does not mean it stops being magic and instead becomes something else. Before Strange became acquainted with it, it was magic. After he does, it is still magic. When has Strange ever slapped his forehead and said, "By golly, this whole time I was never using magic, I was using auto-fucking-win-energy!"? I'm reminded of the inversion of Arthur Clarke's third law: Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology. I like that. But in order for that to be true, that would mean there is no such thing as magic period. |
|
|
|
Post by ckal on Aug 15, 2011 10:29:17 GMT -5
My take on magic is that they are forces someone knows how to control, but you can't explain how they work.
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Aug 15, 2011 10:32:51 GMT -5
My take on magic is sci-fi beats the crap out of it with a blaster rifle.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Aug 15, 2011 10:33:52 GMT -5
Erik-El I'm sad to see you didn't read my posts properly. I also said magic refers to a power than comes from supernatural sources. Most of Strange's magic comes from incantations and invoking extra-dimensional entities. That makes the source supernatural, which makes it magic. Thor's powers are magical because he himself is a supernatural being. See, a character like Scarlet Witch we would call a reality-warper because she isn't personally supernatural. Her power is explained by mutation, which makes her no more magical than Wolverine. If she performed chaos magic by calling on Chthon she would be using magic because it is his power, not hers that is being used.
|
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Aug 15, 2011 10:34:57 GMT -5
I like that. But in order for that to be true, that would mean there is no such thing as magic period. Well I took a walk through the city today and didn't see any magic. Did you?  Seriously though, That is relatively true. Any magic that runs on an established, predictable set of principles is subject to the scientific method no less that any other aspect of the universe. So you either have magic which is unknowable in cannot be understood, and is operated through some cargo cult procedures, or you can actually deem to comprehend the processes behind it, it which point you dispel all the mysticism around it. Because it doesn't matter if you create your sword from the ionized subatomic surrounding particles or from the carcass of an otherdimensional eldrtich being. So long as you can repeat the process with predictable results every time, they're the same thing, That's part of the reason why I like cosmic stories, because they blur the line between the two. |
|
