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Post by Dane on Aug 15, 2011 10:35:01 GMT -5
Take a character like Zatanna on the other hand, the power is her own. But it's called magic because saying something backwards and having it happen doesn't make any fucking sense and no one ever tried to explain it. If they said she was a metahuman she would stop being a magic user and start being a reality warper.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Aug 15, 2011 13:59:49 GMT -5
Just a little philosophical discussion we had in the staff section. It started off as a discussion on whether the Force is magical or not (since It's all about SW these days), but quickly evolved into the definition of magic in general. Feel free to join in.
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Post by Power NeXus on Aug 15, 2011 14:04:35 GMT -5
Hmm. Interesting.
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Aug 15, 2011 14:15:56 GMT -5
1. Don't like Star Wars.
2. Force is a cool idea.
3. Midi-Chlorians is a stupid explanation
4. Therefore I will ignore it.
5. To me it's a mystical. Magical, if you want too.
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Akoot
Sidekick Ledger
Well, hello there.
Posts: 103
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Post by Akoot on Aug 15, 2011 14:23:47 GMT -5
The Force is a giant empathetic sentient life form in my opinion, that spans the whole galaxy if not universe.
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Post by Power NeXus on Aug 15, 2011 14:37:29 GMT -5
I have always adhered to the idea of midi-chlorians, just becuase I watched The Phantom Menace a lot when I was a kid and the idea just stuck with me.
It's hard for me to judge whether or not I think it's a stupid idea, since I've believed it for so long.
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Post by ckal on Aug 15, 2011 17:08:57 GMT -5
Lol. I love how this stemmed from me saying that I was going to finish reading Conan first before I got into Star Wars, and Dane didn't like it and said he would chop off Conan's head with a lightsaber. I replied that Conan hates magic so he hates the force and he will kill them (in a jokingly noobish manner), and then Dane and Erik got into a big debate about it.
Conan Rules.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 15, 2011 18:31:45 GMT -5
exalt.  Moving on... Magic to me is not science, it can't be. And being able to understand it, doesn't make it any less magical. Subsuming magic into science is also being grossly minimalist in my opinion. Magic is the metaphysical layer of reality. It works an operates on principles that trump physical laws, acts on a layer of reality where things like the laws of physics just bend over and get fucked. Why can I throw a fireball? Because I know the True Name of fire and thus have power over this aspect of reality? Why can Thor call down lightning? Because his very being is woven into what Lightning means. Magic is about meaning, symbols and truth. Science can go fuck itself. A dragon can fly even if by all physical laws that would be impossible. Why because it's a fucking dragon and dragons can fly. Seriously the concept that magic is just unexplained science to me is nothing but bullshit. |
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Post by Erik-El on Aug 15, 2011 18:39:44 GMT -5
Dane: I read your post properly, I just think you are wrong. Strange already explained that there is no such thing as Chaos Magic. SW's mutation gave her access to magic, as explained by Strange himself. Magic that she does not understand, which is why the use of her power caused her mind to fracture. She was fucking with magic that she had no business messing with. But it was still magic. So is what Strange uses. What he uses is to my knowledge, never explained away as ANYTHING other than magic.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Aug 15, 2011 18:58:34 GMT -5
I'm a little different to Crom in how I define magic.
To my magic is an understanding of forces beyond the normal understanding of man and how to wield them. In the case of most of my favorite depictions of mystics ( Dr Fate, Arion, Phantom Stranger, Shaman, Hellstrom, Dr Occult, Sargon and others) they are depicted as wielding or controlling energy or an unknown type.
In GA Dr Fate Nabu taught Kent "molecular control" which men would 'call magic'. He often referred to his power as "secrets the world has forgotten". He often referred to it as controlling the energy in or around him.
Arion drew on the power of Stars or the many colored threads.
Phantom Stranger referred to it as a force called the mana. A mystical force that links all things that can be drawn upon.
In modern DCU mystical characters (more recent version of Fate{SA on}, Grey man etc) much of mystical power comes from emotion and belief. You can draw power from the faith of others, love, hate etc
I don't preclude Magic from being science because historically things once considered "magic" are now known science. It's just that at the time they couldn't be explained. Most of what is alchemy would be considered chemistry today. Herbal medicines have been proven by modern science to contain low concentration of compounds in modern pharmaceuticals.
Crom's assertion that magic acts on a level at which the physical laws bend etc could just as equally be applied to quantum mechanics which is very much science. I'm not saying that all magic is unexplained science, but that there exists the possibility to explain some or much of it as discoveries are made.
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Akoot
Sidekick Ledger
Well, hello there.
Posts: 103
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Post by Akoot on Aug 15, 2011 19:01:05 GMT -5
exalt. Moving on... Magic to me is not science, it can't be. And being able to understand it, doesn't make it any less magical. Subsuming magic into science is also being grossly minimalist in my opinion. Magic is the metaphysical layer of reality. It works an operates on principles that trump physical laws, acts on a layer of reality where things like the laws of physics just bend over and get fucked. Why can I throw a fireball? Because I know the True Name of fire and thus have power over this aspect of reality? Why can Thor call down lightning? Because his very being is woven into what Lightning means. Magic is about meaning, symbols and truth. Science can go fuck itself. A dragon can fly even if by all physical laws that would be impossible. Why because it's a fucking dragon and dragons can fly. Seriously the concept that magic is just unexplained science to me is nothing but bullshit. The magic is just unexplained science thing only works in reality or very "realistic" fiction, really. It shouldn't have to apply to all fiction, that's just silly. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 15, 2011 19:01:27 GMT -5
Crom's assertion that magic acts on a level at which the physical laws bend etc could just as equally be applied to quantum mechanics which is very much science. I'm not saying that all magic is unexplained science, but that there exists the possibility to explain some or much of it as discoveries are made. Quantum mechanics are physical laws, they are the laws of the sub-atomic and more infinitely large and infinitely small. Magic makes them also bend over and kiss their ass goodbye. Magic can't be science by definition. Regardless of if fire was thought to be magic when we were cavemen. If fact that things not magical were considered magical has little to no bearing on what actually is magic or not. |
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Aug 15, 2011 19:01:59 GMT -5
Take a character like Zatanna on the other hand, the power is her own. But it's called magic because saying something backwards and having it happen doesn't make any fucking sense and no one ever tried to explain it. If they said she was a metahuman she would stop being a magic user and start being a reality warper. Actually the power isn't her own. The backwards spells are just a way of focusing or centering her control of the energies that she can touch, wield. In the same way any spell is designed to do. The spell is like a siphon or funnel that in being cast gathers eldgrich energy in the vicinity (mana) and forms it. |
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Post by ckal on Aug 15, 2011 19:23:00 GMT -5
I'll put down my opinion.
Magic to me is just something that is controllable, but not necessarily understood how it works. You can understand how to create magic and spells, but its existence is still undefined. It is just something that is there. There can be 'masters of magic' who understand how to control it and are far more familiar with it than most, but it doesn't necessarily mean they know why it is in existence.
Something obviously tough to convey, but probably as close as I can get to getting my point across.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 15, 2011 20:01:30 GMT -5
I've grown fond of the "magic is unexplained science" idea, but only in the stories that actually make it that way. Naturally when it comes down to straight up unexplained fantasy where anything is possible because magic makes it that way in spite of what physical laws exist, that idea has no place there, but I've never really been drawn to those type of stories to begin with. As far as fiction as a whole is concerned with, magic is whatever the author of the story wants it to be. I've recently been trying to write a story that incorporates magic into it (the main reason why I was askin' Crom about all those myths in his thread). As such, I was looking around online on ways to do it right, ways to do it wrong, how various cultures view it, and all that stuff, and really the bottom line thing I came up with is it's whatever the author wants, so long as it's given meaning and a natural place in the setting of whatever's being written. And it's for that reason, I think most of what Dane's saying is wrong, because based on his assertion, he's saying that whenever the author explains how magic works (either through a character, narration, or whatever), it's no longer magic. |
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Aug 16, 2011 18:47:21 GMT -5
Crom's assertion that magic acts on a level at which the physical laws bend etc could just as equally be applied to quantum mechanics which is very much science. I'm not saying that all magic is unexplained science, but that there exists the possibility to explain some or much of it as discoveries are made. Quantum mechanics are physical laws, they are the laws of the sub-atomic and more infinitely large and infinitely small. Magic makes them also bend over and kiss their ass goodbye. Magic can't be science by definition. Regardless of if fire was thought to be magic when we were cavemen. If fact that things not magical were considered magical has little to no bearing on what actually is magic or not. I'm aware of what it is. However when first discovered it was believed to be outside those physical laws. It was only after extended research that it was discovered that QM actually defined the laws of physics within the range of normal magnitudes and explained what were previously believed to be exceptions to those laws due to macro sizes etc. I'm not saying that magic should be "unexplained science" (I can take it either way), I'm saying why limit it in any way. If a writer wants to make a mystic use forces that he has explanations for that are withing the realms or purview of science I don't see why s/he can't. If it's written that way I don't have a problem with it, because it's still the manipulation of forces and energies outside the normal understanding of mankind. The definition of using supernatural forces leaves it open to be "unexplained science" as we can discover and explain through scientific research things believed to be supernatural. |
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Aug 20, 2011 18:48:19 GMT -5
I like to think of magic and science as being at 2 opposite ends of a continuum with every process or ritual fitting somewhere within. The more one understands what goes into the process the more scientific it is while the less one understands the more magical it is. Generally if you can explain the process well enough for someone to duplicate it then it is science. Maybe lack of peer review is the real difference between what is magic and what is science.
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Post by Dane on Aug 24, 2011 21:51:03 GMT -5
I had no idea this was even made into a thread.
And yet years worth of canon involved The Avengers, Doctor Strange and Ghost Rider fighting Chthon, the "Master of Chaos Magic". That's a case of writers breaking continuity for the sake of one story. If I remember rightly, that was at the end of House of M and literally involved Strange one-shot Deus Ex Machina'ing Scarlet Witch with his Amulet of Agamotto.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 25, 2011 14:36:52 GMT -5
Wasn't that Doctor Strange talking about Scarlet Witch thing explained/addressed in Mighty Avengers? I think it went like when Quicksilver was getting possessed, Chthon or whoever was like, "ha ha, puny mortals, tryna' lie an' say I don't exist. I'm real, and so's my magic." I dunno. I gotta re-read it. I think it was during Dark Reign when Slott was writin' it.
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