Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 17, 2011 2:23:06 GMT -5
Cheetah got off Flash first panel page 12. he moved quick and she struck him again, then Again. She wasn't back on him until the end of page 13. So she never pinned him until he stole her speed at all. I may need to reread it (the last time I touched that issue was to develop scans for Zoom, and that was a long time ago), but when Cheetah attacked him again, I seem to remember him looking away from her and grabbing his neck because it was bleeding or something along those lines. Honestly though, I fail to see what Cheetah has to do with this. One way or another, she is not faster than Flash, and that would not extend to Wonder Woman anyway. I really am unsure what this conclusion pertains to or how it bears relevance in the discussion. Could you clarify? Oh. I thought you might have meant Doomsday. Reacting to Zoom when he wants you to win the fight to make you "better" is not a much of a feat. Saying that this is a feat Flash struggles with is a flawed comparison. Zoom moves considerably faster against Flash because Flash is considerably faster than Wonder Woman. In battles against Flash, Zoom has run across continents and returned before Flash even realized he left. He moves too fast for Flash to see at other times. There is not much comparison that can be made. Besides that, Wonder Woman said that Zoom was moving at light speed when he punched her. Now whether or not she can accurately appropriate his speed is debatable, I guess, but if she is correct, she failed to react to him at all when he punched her. She only "reacted" to him when he thought she would pose no threat because of her blindness and when he allowed her to win. Alright, but how he operated against Flash is not altogether indicative of how Wonder Woman would. She has never been able to manhandle Flash that way unless he was holding back. Two whole ranks, do you even know how big a difference that is. On the strength grid one rank separates Superboy Prime from Superman and Black Adam. The difference between rank 27 and 29 on this speed reaction grid is saying that 29 is 10 times greater than 27. it s 100,00,000 times the reaction of a normal person for 27 and 1000,000,000 for 29. If WW has even a few feats that place her able to react on occasion to Flash etc That is not too close. Sorry left of some zeroes on the X 100 million to 1 billion My mistake. I thought it was one rank. The fact that Cheetah can go it with Flash (admittedly with a head start) and keep at him speaks to WW because she reacts to Cheetah all the time. Wally did make an attempt to get away in that at speed and was looking away, but Cheetah still tagged him again and again. Yeah I thought it looked stupid after seeing it in print as well so deleted it. Obviously relativity will always skew reaction feats a little when the character is at high speed. Zoom was pretty surprised by the tags IMHO (based on artist imagery) I did initially say 27 for Diana and 28 or 29 for Wally and Barry. Even that difference is to say (based on the scaling of the grid) that they would have a reaction speed two and a half times that of Diana. Sorry if I came out of the gates hard. I should have clarified the context of the scans when I posted them, and that they were to justify this difference. My point being that since Dianna can react to people with greater raw speed ( which she does all the time) like Supes, Flash, Martian Manhunter, Amazo, etc etc. her reaction speed is greater than her travel speed would indicate. For most characters this isn't the case (some street levelers excepted). Remeber this is reaction speed only. On the travel speed grid, we've already ranked Flash at 25 and WW at 21 (both of which I agreed with at the time). This is bascilly saying that WW is around light spedd, while Flash is 100 times that. As to the JLA story how bat's beat her. Remember he identified how she was reacting in the scan I showed. He at his mortal speed would not cause pressure changes of the magnitude of Flash. He also being a master of stealth is adept at misdirection. It would be simple under the circumstances to create the types of changes/noises that Diana is looking for to misdirect her attention to where he's not attacking. In battling him in the blinded state she would have been reacting to what he wanted her to not to him.
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Silver
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The Fourth Precept
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 2:57:39 GMT -5
The fact that Cheetah can go it with Flash (admittedly with a head start) and keep at him speaks to WW because she reacts to Cheetah all the time. Wally did make an attempt to get away in that at speed and was looking away, but Cheetah still tagged him again and again. "With a head start" being the key phrase that I was trying to drive in in the first place. Honestly, I still am not remembering her tagging him that many times, only two: the first being crashing through a wall to injure him at first and the second being when he was facing away from her clutching at his neck, which resulted with her pinning him on the ground, both of which you seemed to acknowledge, unless I misunderstood you. But since I admittedly have no recollection of certain parts of this fight, there is nothing I can do to refute the rest of your argument other than to point out the circumstantial factors that I already have and to possibly construct an argument on the grounds of villains performing well in their debut, in this case the debut referring to Cheetah's sudden speed increase as a result of her not restricting herself. This is not to disregard Cheetah's speed altogether; I just have a hard time finding her legitimately posing a threat to Flash in a fight without stipulations to be feasible. His reaction feats are simply better. I can agree that she is definitely fast, and in travel (since that would be required for blitz tactics), possibly approach his base level. But that would be all. (Also, after the realization that Zoom helped her achieve about her own speed, Wonder Woman has failed to react to Cheetah.) At the end of the day, for me to make any more comment on the matter would require me to look up the issue, and, no disrespect, I just don't care enough about this discussion to do that. I never meant to start a debate here; I only meant to answer Painkiller's question. If I wanted to discuss the value of the other scans, I would have done that in the first place. Yeah I thought it looked stupid after seeing it in print as well so deleted it. Obviously relativity will always skew reaction feats a little when the character is at high speed. Fair enough. Zoom was pretty surprised by the tags IMHO (based on artist imagery) In the first one, he was surprised because he never expected her to be a challenge in her current state, as Diana corrected him by highlighting the depth of her other senses. In the second, not at all. That was exactly what he wanted from her from the start. He was monologuing the whole fight about how she needs to try harder and attempts to frustrate her by punching Amazons a couple hundred times right in front of her and other such needless tactics. Had he simply punched her repeatedly until she fell unconscious, which he was perfectly capable of doing seeing as she never reacted to any of his blows, he would have won. On top of that, after Wonder Woman brought him back to where Flash and Cheetah were, he escaped with Cheetah, and she was unable to stop him. All in all, Zoom is more than capable of running circles around Wonder Woman any time he pleases, as he did, quite literally, in Sinestro Corps Wars Special #1, where he tied her up with her own lasso, blitzed her, and was defeating her and the rest of the JLA on his own, then left. I did initially say 27 for Diana and 28 or 29 for Wally and Barry. Even that difference is to say (based on the scaling of the grid) that they would have a reaction speed two and a half times that of Diana. Sorry if I came out of the gates hard. I should have clarified the context of the scans when I posted them, and that they were to justify this difference. My point being that since Dianna can react to people with greater raw speed ( which she does all the time) like Supes, Flash, Martian Manhunter, Amazo, etc etc. her reaction speed is greater than her travel speed would indicate. For most characters this isn't the case (some street levelers excepted). Remeber this is reaction speed only. On the travel speed grid, we've already ranked Flash at 25 and WW at 21 (both of which I agreed with at the time). This is bascilly saying that WW is around light spedd, while Flash is 100 times that. To be honest, if the scale is to be interpreted in its most literal sense, I would still disagree with that placement. I have never seen Diana display light speed reaction time, which would be required to dodge a laser at one foot. She certainly has reflexes at a sizable fraction of light speed but not at the relativistic level itself based on consistent showings. But then, maybe my interpretation of it is off. And as I said, I have no real interest in discussing the matter further anyway. As for coming down hard, all good. As to the JLA story how bat's beat her. Remember he identified how she was reacting in the scan I showed. He at his mortal speed would not cause pressure changes of the magnitude of Flash. He also being a master of stealth is adept at misdirection. It would be simple under the circumstances to create the types of changes/noises that Diana is looking for to misdirect her attention to where he's not attacking. In battling him in the blinded state she would have been reacting to what he wanted her to not to him. Could be. That would actually make sense contextually.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 17, 2011 3:29:18 GMT -5
To be honest, if the scale is to be interpreted in its most literal sense, I would still disagree with that placement. I have never seen Diana display light speed reaction time, which would be required to dodge a laser at one foot. She certainly has reflexes at a sizable fraction of light speed but not at the relativistic level itself based on consistent showings. But then, maybe my interpretation of it is off. And as I said, I have no real interest in discussing the matter further anyway. www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/wonder_woman_v_superman_2/105-2045849/Well now you've seen it. She dodges Superman's heat vision (= laser) at less than 1 foot (around 1/2). That is one of about three dozen incidents i can think of, if need be i'll look for the other scans. That BTW was not a Superman holding back, it was a blood lusted Superman controlled by max Lord who believed Lois had been killed and was seeking revenge. others include dodging Dr Light's (evil one) beam while holding him, dodging the evil energy duplicate of the Ray, several against Amazo.
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creator
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Post by creator on Oct 17, 2011 7:04:17 GMT -5
I'll try to reply to your insane post in response to my scans tmrw Have you had chance to work through your thoughts on the scans we posted ? After the set of scans I posted (and scored) I am inclined to move Thor up to Rank 13 for reaction speed as between us we have posted something like 4 or 5 instances of at least Rank 13 reaction speed.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by creator on Oct 17, 2011 11:31:30 GMT -5
creator: I could have sworn there was a reading feat of his where he was reading volumes of textbooks printed on microdots in some novel at the speed a regular person would read the said novel. A novel ? Do you know the title ? In the mean time, any other scans you have for Superman would be welcomed. I plan to do some work on Capt Marvel and Wonder Woman over the next few days but any you can add would also be welcomed.
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creator
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Post by creator on Oct 17, 2011 11:42:54 GMT -5
Ok, here is the list that I asked for us to populate,
Iron Fist Nightwing Daredevil Batman Capt America (Rogers) Deathstroke Spiderman
Thor Hulk
Superman
Wonder Woman Flash (Allen) GL (Jordan) Thing Wolverine Cyclops Mr Fantastic Iron Man Quicksilver Orion Dr Strange Luke Cage Midnighter Silver Surfer Wonder Man Hyperion (712 universe) Gladiator (Kallark) Moon Knight Hawkeye Shiva Namor Longshot Colossus Juggernaut Beast Rhino Abomination Cyborg Hourman
The characters struck through are the ones where we have plenty of scans available for.
Please pick a a character and create a posting referencing several notable demonstrations of reaction speed.
I can score them if that makes life easier but getting the info togther is quite time consuming.
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Post by ckal on Oct 17, 2011 11:55:14 GMT -5
I'll try to reply to your insane post in response to my scans tmrw Have you had chance to work through your thoughts on the scans we posted ? After the set of scans I posted (and scored) I am inclined to move Thor up to Rank 13 for reaction speed as between us we have posted something like 4 or 5 instances of at least Rank 13 reaction speed. Sorry, not yet. I will shortly, but I doubt it would even matter now as you are willing to Rank Thor at 13, and not much I will say can make a difference. Quick response regarding the micro-seconds scan- It doesn't matter how fast Mjolnir was moving. The narration stated he had a scant few micro-seconds to react, and he completed a punch significant enough to KO Magnir, and a catch in Mjolnir in that time frame. Thor reacted in a few micro-seconds. Whatever rank that compares to, that's what rank that feat is.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 17, 2011 12:04:16 GMT -5
creator: I could have sworn there was a reading feat of his where he was reading volumes of textbooks printed on microdots in some novel at the speed a regular person would read the said novel. A novel ? Do you know the title ? In the mean time, any other scans you have for Superman would be welcomed. I plan to do some work on Capt Marvel and Wonder Woman over the next few days but any you can add would also be welcomed. I want to say it was a comic. I have only read two Superman novels ever and I doubt my imagination is that vivid. Superman was on a plane (obviously as Clark) and brushing up on some textbooks at super speed but he put them on microdots so to anyone looking, it would seem like he is just reading some random novel at normal speeds.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by creator on Oct 17, 2011 12:04:59 GMT -5
Sorry, not yet. I will shortly, but I doubt it would even matter now as you are willing to Rank Thor at 13, and not much I will say can make a difference. Quick response regarding the micro-seconds scan- It doesn't matter how fast Mjolnir was moving. The narration stated he had a scant few micro-seconds to react, and he completed a punch significant enough to KO Magnir, and a catch in Mjolnir in that time frame. Thor reacted in a few micro-seconds. Whatever rank that compares to, that's what rank that feat is. Do you think Thor is higher than rank 13 ? If so, persuade me otherwise. Nothing is fixed and it is only mine interpretation of the feats. I might argue on what the image shows or how to go about actually rating the feat but if you show me Thor to be rank 16 or higher, so be it. That is a good point about the hammer. We can estimate how long it would take a human to react, punch and catch the hammer. Knowing that he has basically 2 microseconds means we can rank it.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by creator on Oct 17, 2011 12:06:25 GMT -5
I want to say it was a comic. I have only read two Superman novels ever and I doubt my imagination is that vivid. Superman was on a plane (obviously as Clark) and brushing up on some textbooks at super speed but he put them on microdots so to anyone looking, it would seem like he is just reading some random novel at normal speeds. Ok.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 17, 2011 12:07:18 GMT -5
True but that is not the case in the Cheetah vs Flash fight, nor was Zoom holding back on WW. Cheetah was able to attack Flash by catching him off-guard. She crashed through a wall to strike him; she never appeared in his line of sight where he could actually process her attack and then respond. That was how she had the advantage initially. As for Zoom...yes, he was. The fact that he slowed down enough for her to even sense him is proof of that. If he wanted to, he could have just continued to punch her around the world until she fell unconscious, but instead, he tried to agitate her by beating up other Amizons. He let her win. And crashing through a wall is supposed to really take Flash off guard? A man with his supposed reaction time? If his reaction time is really supposed to be on that kind of level and Cheetah is really no match for him with her upgrade, it would have seemed like she was standing still as she came through that wall to the Flash. As for Zoom, no he was not. Not anymore than he holds back on Flash himself. Zoom never "lets" anyone win. He either beats heroes soundly or makes mistakes that cost him.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 14:38:25 GMT -5
To be honest, if the scale is to be interpreted in its most literal sense, I would still disagree with that placement. I have never seen Diana display light speed reaction time, which would be required to dodge a laser at one foot. She certainly has reflexes at a sizable fraction of light speed but not at the relativistic level itself based on consistent showings. But then, maybe my interpretation of it is off. And as I said, I have no real interest in discussing the matter further anyway. www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/wonder-woman/108-548700/wonder_woman_v_superman_2/105-2045849/Well now you've seen it. She dodges Superman's heat vision (= laser) at less than 1 foot (around 1/2). That is one of about three dozen incidents i can think of, if need be i'll look for the other scans. That BTW was not a Superman holding back, it was a blood lusted Superman controlled by max Lord who believed Lois had been killed and was seeking revenge. others include dodging Dr Light's (evil one) beam while holding him, dodging the evil energy duplicate of the Ray, several against Amazo. I have seen this and every other example of Wonder Woman blocking heat vision before. This does nothing to refute my point. When has heat vision ever been stated as moving at light speed? And crashing through a wall is supposed to really take Flash off guard? A man with his supposed reaction time? If his reaction time is really supposed to be on that kind of level and Cheetah is really no match for him with her upgrade, it would have seemed like she was standing still as she came through that wall to the Flash. As for Zoom, no he was not. Not anymore than he holds back on Flash himself. Zoom never "lets" anyone win. He either beats heroes soundly or makes mistakes that cost him. He can't see her moving in slow motion if she comes out behind him, which she did. He was holding back on her more than he holds back on Flash. Against Flash, he actually causes significant tragedies in his life, such as causing his wife to have a miscarriage. Against Wonder Woman, all he did was beat up Amazons. Against Flash, he beats multiple Flashes before they have a chance to react. Against Wonder Woman, all he did was punch her with pause between each blow to talk to her. Against Flash, he runs back and forth from different locations before Flash realizes he left. Against Wonder Woman, he stayed with her the entire time. There is no comparison in how he handles Flash and how handled Wonder Woman. Again, if he wanted to fight seriously, he could have just continued to punch her until she fell unconscious, something he was more than capable of doing considering the fact that she never reacted to his blows. More than that, after she brought him back to Flash and Cheetah, he escaped with Cheetah before Wonder Woman could never do anything about it. He was also beating Wonder Woman along with the rest of the JLA on his own. Her "reacting" to Zoom was just tossing a lasso at him and him standing there, when he could have easily evaded it. There is no reaction feat there.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 17, 2011 14:51:11 GMT -5
Yeah but why does he need to see her to react to her? You said she came through a wall? That is one big fucking entrance to miss. Your statement also does not address this reaction time that is supposed to be so good, that Cheetah should not have come close to being a threat despite her upgrade.
Oh and nearly killing Diana's people is not a significant tragedy? Having just read through the issue again, I will point out that the threat on the Amazon's lives was made.
I do not see how the formula is any different. Against the Flash, he hurts Flash and then hurts those Flash cares about in an attempt to make Flash a more competent hero. That is the exact same thing he did to Wonder Woman. The only difference is that it is Wonder Woman so of course it is not the "same thing".
Considering Zoom never fights Flash seriously, I fail to see why you even bring it up. If Zoom really wanted Flash dead, Flash would be dead. End of story.
Her reacting to Zoom is just tossing a lasso? How about "she reacted to him and subdued him by kicking rocks at him and then tossing her lasso". Zoom did not just stand there. He actually was in the process of evading when he was caught. He certainly was not just standing there since first he evaded the rocks, then was trying to evade the lasso but failed.
I am honestly getting pretty fucking sick of people poo-pooing Wonder Woman feats simply because it is Wonder Woman.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 15:10:20 GMT -5
Yeah but why does he need to see her to react to her? You said she came through a wall? That is one big fucking entrance to miss. Because Flash does not have superhuman hearing that allows him to detect people or attacks coming behind him. She landed a lucky shot when he thought Zoom was the present enemy. Your statement also does not address this reaction time that is supposed to be so good, that Cheetah should not have come close to being a threat despite her upgrade. Maybe I misunderstood this. Are you asking me to list reaction feats for Flash? If so, Flash has: evacuated a hospital when an explosion detonated inside and during the evacuation stopped and watched the explosion expand for a short period, then finished evacuating everything before it destroyed the building; ran between two locations a few hundred miles away so fast that he was able to be in those two places at once and listen in on two conversations at once; was able to see nanosecond gaps in the transition between Doctor Destiny's dream illusions; ran a thorough search through a building so fast that no one in the building noticed him and the person at the front desk who he spoke to never noticed him move; etc. If this was not what you meant, then I need to you explain. Oh and nearly killing Diana's people is not a significant tragedy? Having just read through the issue again, I will point out that the threat on the Amazon's lives was made. He never nearly killed anyone; he beat on one and then stopped. I do not see how the formula is any different. Against the Flash, he hurts Flash and then hurts those Flash cares about in an attempt to make Flash a more competent hero. That is the exact same thing he did to Wonder Woman. The only difference is that it is Wonder Woman so of course it is not the "same thing". The difference is that against Flash, he fights significantly faster and harder. Zoom has beaten Flash into the ground five or six times, not to mention the times he has beaten Jay and Bart. And in the course of these times, he has defeated Flash to an extent that Flash would never be able to fight back until he recovered from his injuries. This was not the case with Diana. He punched her a few times, threatened Amazons, and asked her to "try harder." He could have just ended the fight before she realized it started. Considering Zoom never fights Flash seriously, I fail to see why you even bring it up. If Zoom really wanted Flash dead, Flash would be dead. End of story. Yes, he does. Like I said, he has outright beaten Flash before, unlike how he treated Wonder Woman. And if Zoom wanted Wonder Woman dead, she would be dead. Thank you for addressing that point. But Zoom never kills. Her reacting to Zoom is just tossing a lasso? How about "she reacted to him and subdued him by kicking rocks at him and then tossing her lasso". Zoom did not just stand there. He actually was in the process of evading when he was caught. He certainly was not just standing there since first he evaded the rocks, then was trying to evade the lasso but failed. So....a person who can run between continents at light speed and avoid all of the land formations, people, structures, objects, and every other obstacle between them is incapable of dodging a few rocks and a tossed lasso? And a person who is dodging the rocks so fast that he creates afterimages of himself is incapable of avoiding a lasso toss? And even if that was the case, Diana still never reacted to him. If it happened as you say it did, then he was just tricked into moving into a certain position. It had nothing to do with failing to react to anything. So one way or another, your point fails to match with what was shown. I am honestly getting pretty fucking sick of people poo-pooing Wonder Woman feats simply because it is Wonder Woman. As amusing as I find your assessment of my stake in the matter, no one has done this, and I would appreciate it if you stop pretending to understand the reasons for my disagreements, thank you.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 17, 2011 15:32:17 GMT -5
If one is coming through a wall, one does not need super human senses to know it.
No I am not. Your implication the entire time is that Cheetah was either riding a PIS magic carpet or just plain "got lucky" throughout their entire fight. Listing Flash feats would be pointless.
He beat one severely and threatened to kill her. A very close friend to Diana's. But I guess I see your point. Zoom only likes to play hardball with Flash and plays nice with Diana because she is a girl.
Oh please. That is subjective bullshit. He fights Flash harder? How exactly? I guess hitting her harder than she has ever been hit IS Zoom being nice. My mistake.
Unlike you, I never said that Zoom treats the two any differently. He fights her the same way he fights Flash. And yes, if Zoom wanted WW dead, she would be dead. But that does not change the fact that the very same statement holds true for Flash. So no, you do not get to steal that as part of your flimsy argument.
In short, yes. But I forgot your entire argument hinges on the fact that Zoom just likes it rough and was really craving a fist in the face from Wonder Woman. He clearly "let" himself get lassoed because Zoom does that kind of bullshit all the time right? He likes to let the heroes beat on him.
Wrong again. A scattershot is hardly tricking someone into a position where they can be lassoed. And assuming for the sake of lulz that what you say about Zoom is true and he is just too damn fast for the lasso, getting rocks kicked at him would be pointless and the lasso would have been easily avoided. Alas you are determined to make Zoom out as some kind of masochist and he damn near jumped into that lasso.
Actually, you have done this. You decided to hop right in here and discredit Wonder Woman feats just because what? It means that other characters have to take a hit for them? Well too bad for you that is how it works some times. So you can get all the amusement you want out of this but it will not change the fact of what you have tried to do here. The feats are credible. Geoff Johns was in collaboration for this particular arc and say what you will about Rucka, Johns is no shitty writer. Furthermore, I do not pretend any such thing. I know.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Oct 17, 2011 15:52:12 GMT -5
If one is coming through a wall, one does not need super human senses to know it. For him to evade an attacking coming behind him would require him to be able to process the threat as it is, instead of relying on blind spots with an attack he never sees. No I am not. Your implication the entire time is that Cheetah was either riding a PIS magic carpet or just plain "got lucky" throughout their entire fight. Listing Flash feats would be pointless. Then I fail to see what your point is. He beat one severely and threatened to kill her. A very close friend to Diana's. But I guess I see your point. Zoom only likes to play hardball with Flash and plays nice with Diana because she is a girl. Strawman. Misrepresenting my argument and disparaging it sarcastically does nothing to refute my point. I never said anything about Wonder Woman's gender having anything to do with it. Oh please. That is subjective bullshit. He fights Flash harder? How exactly? I guess hitting her harder than she has ever been hit IS Zoom being nice. My mistake. I already explained how: he moves too fast for Flash to react to/see, he actually beats Flash when he wants to, he uses his frequent thunderclap ability, he beats multiple Flashes simultaneously. So on and so on. He never moved that fast against Wonder Woman, he never beat her when he could have, he never used his thunderclap ability, he never beat her with an ally in this instance. And on the one time where Wonder Woman did have help from other heroes, he was beating her rather easily. Unlike you, I never said that Zoom treats the two any differently. He fights her the same way he fights Flash. And yes, if Zoom wanted WW dead, she would be dead. But that does not change the fact that the very same statement holds true for Flash. So no, you do not get to steal that as part of your flimsy argument. Stating that he could kill Flash whenever he wants is irrelevant because he never kills anyway. The pointlessness occurred when you brought it up. The difference is that he actually beats Flash when he wants to. In short, yes. But I forgot your entire argument hinges on the fact that Zoom just likes it rough and was really craving a fist in the face from Wonder Woman. He clearly "let" himself get lassoed because Zoom does that kind of bullshit all the time right? He likes to let the heroes beat on him. No refutation here, just you trying to insult me. Keep it up. Wrong again. A scattershot is hardly tricking someone into a position where they can be lassoed. And assuming for the sake of lulz that what you say about Zoom is true and he is just too damn fast for the lasso, getting rocks kicked at him would be pointless and the lasso would have been easily avoided. Alas you are determined to make Zoom out as some kind of masochist and he damn near jumped into that lasso. Then why did she kick rocks? If it was so unneeded for her to tie him in the lasso, then what was the point? In a sense, that is exactly what he is. He fights heroes to "make them better" but never kills them. Against any hero except Flash, he has never made a point to outright defeat them either, just punch them a little to humiliate them and convince them "try harder." He allowed himself to be grabbed by Damage once and was unable to escape because Damage would have released massive amounts of energy that would have killed him. He allowed that to happen because he has this twisted view that it would make Damage a more effective hero. The fact of the matter is, he does let heroes attack him. That is part of his MO for his own purposes. Actually, you have done this. You decided to hop right in here and discredit Wonder Woman feats just because what? It means that other characters have to take a hit for them? Well too bad for you that is how it works some times. So you can get all the amusement you want out of this but it will not change the fact of what you have tried to do here. The feats are credible. Geoff Johns was in collaboration for this particular arc and say what you will about Rucka, Johns is no shitty writer. Furthermore, I do not pretend any such thing. I know. You can think what you want, but disagreeing with me out of principle of my supposed inner hatred for Wonder Woman (FYI, I have been a Wonder Woman fan for years) just boils down to ad hominem. Trying to avoid the issue is no better, which you have also done here. Respond to my posts, and this time, try to do so without making the matter personal. It's a weak tactic.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 17, 2011 16:26:31 GMT -5
Do not whine about me meeting your condescension with condescension. If you do not like it used on you, do not resort to it yourself.
For him to evade an attack? You mean, in order for Flash to evade attacks? He has to see them coming long before they connect? Well based on your statement, he has some shitty reaction time indeed.
My point was that Cheetah was fast enough to continuously hurt Flash, even after he healed from having his neck cut.
Actually it does plenty to refute your point. You made a false claim. Zoom repeatedly injured Diana and nearly killed one of Diana's close friends, just like he does to Flash.
So.... What you are trying to say is that because Zoom did not pull out his team busting feats, his loss is invalid? That is (much like your entire argument so far) bullshit. It also does not change the fact that Zoom treated her the same way he treats Flash. He hurts Flash, then tries to hurt those close to Flash. Flash manages to win somehow despite Zoom's clear power superiority as well. Are we supposed to immediately discredit those victories?
Get off your semantics garbage. The statement is no less true just because Zoom does not kill. He also does not let Flash win. Zoom just does not spend all his time directly on Flash and because of that, Flash edges out an occasional victory. Where has Zoom ever said that he directly let Flash win? Granted, I do not read Flash as much as say..... you do (an assumption that you read Flash regularly) but I have never even heard of anyone saying that Zoom lets people win in any debate ever.
I see it as a refutation. I pointed out how silly your argument is by spotlighting what it would mean assuming you are right about Zoom.
Why indeed. I believe I have the answer for you. Because he was actually taken off guard by the scattershot (which is never stated to be the intention but I am assuming it is for the sake of answering your question) and before Zoom could get out of range, WW pinpointed which image was the real Zoom and lassoed him (a reaction speed feat).
Agreed. Zoom does fight heroes from his viewpoint to make them better. But because it is against Wonder Woman, it is not credible? That is bullshit.
It has nothing to do with what I think. I know. I love how you say I am avoiding some issue when I have addressed every single one you have made.
Nothing about it is personal other than my frustration at people poo-pooing Wonder Woman feats.... Which no matter what you say, is exactly what you have done and just will not admit it now that someone came at you about it. Beatboks could have posted any one of Wonder Woman's impressive reaction speed feats and you would have come in here and tried to discredit them just the same because Wonder Woman's feats are usually measured against other's stats, which somehow makes them less credible to you. Your argument with me is a direct result of that horse shit.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
It's time for Powergrids 2.0
Posts: 1,217
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Post by creator on Oct 17, 2011 16:42:39 GMT -5
Grabs the popcorn before the next instalment
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Post by Morpheus on Oct 17, 2011 16:44:36 GMT -5
I'd actually not wish to grab the popcorn, and would rather grab the fire extinguisher.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Oct 17, 2011 17:04:53 GMT -5
Can I have a digested version on what the argument is about?
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