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Post by creator on Sept 19, 2011 23:03:05 GMT -5
Thanks. After that I am inclined to the following Enchantress (Marvel) Energy Source: 20 Adeptness: 19 Power Simulation: 18 Overall: 19 She has some enough high end feat to show her full power. Although I am tempted to aide her power simulation to 19, I don't think she should higher than some of her peers on overall rank 19.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by creator on Sept 19, 2011 23:32:23 GMT -5
Compiled List
Rank 1
Rank 2
Rank 3
Rank 4
Rank 5
Rank 6 Talon
Rank 7
Rank 8 Doctor Druid Doctor Mist
Rank 9
Rank 10
Rank 11 John Constantine Modred (no possession) Rank 12 Amanda Sefton Rintrah Shat-ru (K Nelson's body) Rank 13 Blue Devil Mister Jip Nabu (K Nelson's body)
Rank 14 Arcanna (Squadron Supreme - Earth 712) Doctor Occult Sargon Rank 15 Atlan Bloodwynd
Rank 16
Rank 17 Agatha Harkness Baron Mordo Dark Majestra Doctor Doom Nicholas Scratch Shaman Rank 18 Arion Jennifer Kale Rank 19 Enchantress (Marvel) Garn Daanuth Modred (possessed) Talisman
Rank 20 Eclipso (In a single shard) Rank 21 Blaze Calculha Daimon Hellstron (fully Hell powered)
Rank 22 Enchantress (DC) Grey Man Urthona Rank 23 Felix Faust Morgan le Fey (Marvel)
Rank 24 Clea Karnilla Loki Lords of Order / Chaos Mephisto (outside Hel) Phantom Stranger Shazam Rank 25 Ancient One Dr Fate (classic) Doctor Strange (classic) Kaluu Merlin (Marvel - Camelot) Nabu (energy form) Necrom Totec
Rank 26 Adversary Circe Merlyn (Otherworld, at peak) Mordru Pluto (Marvel) Satannish (inside own realm) Umar
Rank 27 Dormammu Full Eclipso (unsplit) Hoggoth Llan Mephisto (in Hel) Oshtur Spectre Surtur Trigon Thunderbolt (Jakeem) Zeus (Marvel)
Rank 28 Agamotto Cyttorak Kulak Odin (Marvel) Shauma-Gorath
Rank 29 Chthon Zom
Rank 30 Eternity Great Evil Beast Living Tribunal
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Sept 20, 2011 8:26:05 GMT -5
Atlan Source 14 adeptness 15 Power simulation 15 overall 15 - his feats and showings are a few notches below The real mage of Atlantis Arion)
Blaze Source 21 Adeptness 20 power Simulation 21 Overal 21 - based on showings against her father Shazam and she was surprised modern Dr Fate could match her (might mean a little higher or could have been expecting easier since he was a novice)
Bloodwynd Source: 14 Adeptness: 16 Power Simulation: 14 Overall 15
Blue Devil Source 18 (averaging this as there are so many variations (portal open to nether world for trident and various levels of demon after deals seems to range between 8 and 21) Adeptness 5 Power Simulation 13 ( uped by a few only feats his battles with Nebrios and Etrigan)
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Sept 20, 2011 8:30:36 GMT -5
Eclipso In a single shard more likely source 18 adeptness 26 power simulation 17 - basing this on several things one of which is the limited energies used by Bruce Gordon when not Eclipso. He can use energies of Eclipso without unleashing Elcipso if he's careful about the amount he uses. He has used this to fly, travel in space protected by shield and blast energy. Overall 19
full Eclipso (not split in the shards of the crystal) Source 27 adeptness 26 power simulation 27 Overall 27
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Post by creator on Sept 20, 2011 12:21:26 GMT -5
Felix Faust Energy Source: 21 (limited access to some sources....he has burnt too many bridges) Adeptness: 23 (extremely knowledgable) Power Simulation: 23 Overall: 23
Arcanna (Squadron Supreme - Earth 712) Energy Source: 14 (mainly an elemental/nature focus in the past) Adeptness: 15 Power Simulation: 13 Overall: 14
Pluto (Marvel) Energy Source: 26 (access to a huge reservoir of mystical energy) Adeptness: 25 Power Simulation: 26 (extremely high magical energy projection, 2nd only to Zeus) Overall: 26
Karnilla Energy Source: 24 Adeptness: 24 (pretty much as skilled as Loki but lower than Odin) Power Simulation: 24 (capable of most magical feats) Overall: 24
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Matezoide
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Post by Matezoide on Sept 20, 2011 20:08:54 GMT -5
Thanks. After that I am inclined to the following Enchantress (Marvel) Energy Source: 20 Adeptness: 19 Power Simulation: 18 Overall: 19 She has some enough high end feat to show her full power. Although I am tempted to aide her power simulation to 19, I don't think she should higher than some of her peers on overall rank 19. I would think a 19 for her Power Simulation would be accurate,but i am not 100% sure if she deserves it. I can try and see if i can find more power simulation feats.
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Post by creator on Sept 21, 2011 11:51:44 GMT -5
I would think a 19 for her Power Simulation would be accurate,but i am not 100% sure if she deserves it. I can try and see if i can find more power simulation feats. The more releavant info, the better.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Sept 25, 2011 4:32:23 GMT -5
Etrigan Source 26 Adeptness 14 ( he doesn't have much time for magic to develop it) Power Simulation 18 Overall 19
Sebastian Faust Source 17 Adeptness 15 Power Simulation 15 (as yet he doesn't have his fathers high end feats) Overall 16
Ibis the Invincible Source 22 Adeptness 21 Power Simulation 22 Overall 22
Ian Karkull Source 21 Adeptness 21 Power Simulation 21 Overall 22
Lucifer Source 30 Adeptness 30 Power Simulation 30 Overall 30
Michael Source 30 Adeptness 30 Power Simulation 30 Overall 30
Raven (when drawn from her fathers dimension) Source 24 Adeptness 18 Power Simulation 16 Overall 19
Satanus Source 24 Adeptness 22 Power Simulation 24 Overall 24
Wotan Source 22 Adeptness 25 Power Simulation 22 Overall 23
Zor (enemy and bane of GA Spectre) Source 25 Adeptness 27 Power Simulation 26 Overall 26 he couldn't have been the thorn in Spectre's side he was throughout the GA unless he was at least that. he certainly taught Spectre a thing or two in their earlier encounters.
Khalis (enemy of Dr Fate servant of Osiris) Source 22 ( when in possession of Amulet of Anubis normally worn by Fate) Adeptness 22 Power Simulation 24 Overall 23
Silver Sorceress Source 16 Adeptness 15 Power Simulation 15 Overall 16
The Sorceress (He-Man) Source 20 (it powers He-man after all who in early DC inclusions was equal to Supes and Cap Marvel0 Adeptness 18 Power Simulation 14 Overall 17
Tempest (Garth) Source 16 Adeptness 15 Power Simulation 15 Overall 16
Alan Scot Source 24 ( the gathered "chaotic energy" of an entire universe) Adeptness 20 v( adept at energy projection and experienced but his knowledge of the mystical aspects of his power has only been explored for the last decade or 2) Power Simulation 23 Overall 23
Obsidian Source 24 (possibly 25 as his source is both the dark dimension that Karkul draws from and the starheart) Adeptness 18 ( after the fatherland storyline it's been hinted on that he's more in touch with his power than ever before, but it hasn't been explored and now with DCNu probably wont. Power Simulation 20 His high end showings when "possessed or driven" by the evil he feels rounded (like when Neron was buying souls and he could be or sense multiple places or his battle with his father in "the Dark things")out with his lower showings give him this IMHO Overall 20 Though Todd does have limitations others don't. Neither he nor his father cast spells but his father has achieved the same outcomes as the spells of some of the most potent mages in DCU without them Todd hasn't.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Sept 25, 2011 10:09:25 GMT -5
Why's Odin at 28 as opposed to 27? That ranking just seems out of place to me considering who shares that rank with him. I never saw him having more magical power than Dormammu, Mephisto, or Surtur. In fact, I'd say Surtur himself has more power than Odin does. Certainly they're all comparable, and it's for that reason I think they should all share the same rank of 27. Plus, taking the average of what was given as his energy source, aptness, and power, you'd get 27.
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Post by creator on Sept 25, 2011 13:41:13 GMT -5
Why's Odin at 28 as opposed to 27? That ranking just seems out of place to me considering who shares that rank with him. I never saw him having more magical power than Dormammu, Mephisto, or Surtur. In fact, I'd say Surtur himself has more power than Odin does. Certainly they're all comparable, and it's for that reason I think they should all share the same rank of 27. Plus, taking the average of what was given as his energy source, aptness, and power, you'd get 27. Mystical influence is not just simply about raw power. This is why we chose to draw in the elements of energy source and adeptness. This is why John Constantine ranks higher than his raw power indicates. Another point to remember is that the scoring is not simply an average of the 3 figures. This grids scores are calculated like the energy manipulation grid. The average of the first 2 figures (for energy source and adeptness) is found and then this is averaged with the power simulation and in all cases we round up to the nearest whole number each time. By averaging the first 2 ranks, we acknowledge that at least half the characters mystical influence comes from his skill and knowledge and sources of power. This forms just as an important an aspect as how much raw power he can put out. I am not saying that we have every single character at the perfect point on the rank chart but I can at least defend the decision making that put Odin at 28 vs some of the others at 27. Odin was scored as follows, Energy Source: 27 Adeptness: 26 Power Simulation: 28 Overall: 28 Reasonably high in Energy Source as he contains the Odin power but he can draw on external sources (such as Asgardian life forces and the very fabric of Asgard). He is extremely adept in the use of his powers, displaying an almost unlimited versatility, covering size change, energy blasts, energy shields, energy absorption, spatial and dimensional travel, telepathy, molecular manipulation, quasi mental and spiritual manipulation, raising the dead, object enchantment, time travel etc. Now lets be clear, he has shown greater versatility than Mephisto has and his versatility is far greater than Surtur, who in the main is all about raw power, hardly if ever showing the finess that Odin does. However Odin ranks lower than Dormammu does for adeptness as Dormammu has almost unparalleled adeptness, apart from a select few in the many dimensions. Odin's level of power simulation was put at 28 because he has performed many feats over an extended period of years, that are galaxy wide in scope and routinely exceed planetary scope. Examples of high end feats include the creation of Mangog (compressing an entire planet of billions of beings in to 1 being), The enchantment of both Mjolnir (accepted as 1 of the most powerful weapons in existence) and the Destroyer, removed a soul from the domain of Mephisto, Dormammu's ability to only tamper (and alter for a very short period of time) the enchantments on Mjolnir, Odins battle with Infinity (the damage that resulted covered galaxies) and his repair of all of the damage afterwards and his battle with Seth (described as galaxy destroying and reignited suns). Yes we can argue that Dormammu could have feats that are similar in scope but I don't recall him destroying galaxies almost at a whim. The list shows relative influence and is a guide to the chance of 1 character being able to over come another or being able to hold their own in battle with another. Being just 1 level above or below another is not much really. Now for completions sake I have reposted the stats for Surtur, Mephisto and Dormammu as well for comparison, showing that Dormammu is the most skilled, Surtur and Mephisto (in his own realm) have the greatest energy source but both Odin and Surtur can bring to bear the greatest might. Dormammu (in own realm) Energy Source: 27 Adeptness: 27 Power Simulation: 27 Overall: 27 Surtur Energy Source: 28 Adeptness: 23 Power Simulation: 28 Overall: 27 Mephisto (in own realm) Energy Source: 28 Adeptness: 25 Power Simulation: 26 Overall: 27 If you think these numbers are wrong, please suggest alternatives that you think more closely describe the characters.
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creator
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Post by creator on Sept 27, 2011 14:34:05 GMT -5
Compiled List
Rank 1
Rank 2
Rank 3
Rank 4
Rank 5
Rank 6 Talon
Rank 7
Rank 8 Doctor Druid Doctor Mist
Rank 9
Rank 10
Rank 11 John Constantine Modred (no possession) Rank 12 Amanda Sefton Rintrah Shat-ru (K Nelson's body) Rank 13 Blue Devil Mister Jip Nabu (K Nelson's body)
Rank 14 Arcanna (Squadron Supreme - Earth 712) Doctor Occult Sargon Rank 15 Atlan Bloodwynd
Rank 16 Sebastian Faust Silver Sorceress Tempest (Garth) Rank 17 Agatha Harkness Baron Mordo Dark Majestra Doctor Doom Nicholas Scratch Shaman The Sorceress (He-man) Rank 18 Arion Jennifer Kale Rank 19 Enchantress (Marvel) Entrigan Garn Daanuth Modred (possessed) Raven (drawing from Trigon's dimension) Talisman
Rank 20 Eclipso (In a single shard) Obsidian (limited scope / versatility) Rank 21 Blaze Calculha Daimon Hellstron (fully Hell powered)
Rank 22 Enchantress (DC) Grey Man Ibis the Invincible Ian Karkull Urthona Rank 23 Alan Scott Felix Faust Khalis Morgan le Fey (Marvel) Wotan
Rank 24 Clea Karnilla Loki Lords of Order / Chaos Mephisto (outside Hel) Phantom Stranger Satanus (DC) Shazam Rank 25 Ancient One Dr Fate (classic) Doctor Strange (classic) Kaluu Merlin (Marvel - Camelot) Nabu (energy form) Necrom Totec
Rank 26 Adversary Circe Merlyn (Otherworld, at peak) Mordru Pluto (Marvel) Satannish (inside own realm) Umar Zor
Rank 27 Dormammu Full Eclipso (unsplit) Hoggoth Llan Mephisto (in Hel) Oshtur Spectre Surtur Trigon Thunderbolt (Jakeem) Zeus (Marvel)
Rank 28 Agamotto Cyttorak Kulak Odin (Marvel) Shauma-Gorath
Rank 29 Chthon Zom
Rank 30 Eternity Great Evil Beast Living Tribunal Lucifer (DC) Michael (DC)
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Sept 27, 2011 16:10:43 GMT -5
I'd put Darkseid somewhere around 26-27 same thing for High Father
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Post by creator on Sept 27, 2011 18:06:44 GMT -5
I'd put Darkseid somewhere around 26-27 same thing for High Father I've been trying to decide if Darkseid, Zeus, Odin and others from the DC universe actually wield magical power (like some of their Marvel counterparts) or if they are just energy manipulators. Do we have any modern evidence to show it ? (I know I remember Darkseid absorbing magical energy pre-crisis)
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Sept 27, 2011 20:17:33 GMT -5
I've been trying to decide if Darkseid, Zeus, Odin and others from the DC universe actually wield magical power (like some of their Marvel counterparts) or if they are just energy manipulators. Do we have any modern evidence to show it ? (I know I remember Darkseid absorbing magical energy pre-crisis) The New Gods definetively wield mystical power along with some of them have being energy manipulators. High Father and Darkseid as well as all of the New Gods all get their power from the God Wave, the mystical source of Godhood in DC. High Father is a potent mystic easily on par with Zeus and the best of the Olympians. Darkseid has numerous mystical based god abilities like potent mental control, ability to capture souls and create mystical weapons, the Omega effect etc. He's easily DC's most powerful Sky-Father level entity.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Sept 27, 2011 20:28:04 GMT -5
Fate ( Jared Stephens) Source 22 Draws on order and chaos Adeptness 2 lets face it any magic he's done he stumbled on that probably generous Energy Simulation 6 all his feats are pretty much just physical aside from riding lines of power Overall 9
Hawk and dove (both) Source 16 a single lord of Order and Chaos each adeptness 3 power simulation 4 overall 6
Darkling (MLJ/ Archie) Source 8 adeptness 12 while a very adept mentalist her main mystic thing was telepotation with her cloak power simulation 4 overall 6
The one thing I can think of that puts DS in the "mystic" field was his appearances in the early part of the Straus Dr fate run. I know it's been retconned to not be DS but his summoning the LOO and LOC and showing an understanding of their power base etc shows at least knowledge adeptness of magic. As for the more "earthly" godly pantheons (Greek, Egypt, etc) I look more to the classic tales. I can't recall the exact tale but Classic fate explained to someone that all the 'gods" had at some point been either Lords of Order or Chaos, that had appeared to man to increase their power level through the worship of mankind. Once they had abandoned these roles if they were still worshiped enough that worship would create beings from the worship. It was also established post COIE in the WW (I believe) story that the Greek gods created the Amazons so that their worship would allow them to continue to exist. When you tie that in with the likes of Uncle Sam (who exists through the belief of patriots in freedom and is more powerful when that belief is strong), and the role played by the Gray man (taking "dream" from beliefs an energy a source for magic). As well as looking at other high players of DCU mystics like Phantom Stranger who at ther end of the 87 mini series regained his power stripped from him when those watching him fight for them on TV gained hope and he was powered by that, or Inza Nelson Fate regained power when the people in her neighborhood stood by her with their belief in her when she was stripped. I think we can safely say that anyone who is a worshiped higher being in DCU can be considered magic.
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Post by creator on Sept 28, 2011 6:36:18 GMT -5
Ok. Good enough for me. In that case can I suggest we look at relevant feats for Darkseid, Highfather, Ares (DC) and Zeus (DC) to understand where they sit.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Sept 28, 2011 23:05:34 GMT -5
Ok. Good enough for me. In that case can I suggest we look at relevant feats for Darkseid, Highfather, Ares (DC) and Zeus (DC) to understand where they sit. On the basis that most of the Earthly pantheons were once Lords of Order or Chaos, I'd assume most to be at the level we've given them. Any exceptions that feats can verified can be cited separately in much the same way we have for Totec (a Lord of Chaos and Aztec God ). I'd say that the Greek Gods (since they were then created from the belief left after the LOO and LOC abandoned the guise) would be a little lower with the exception of maybe Zues and as we've already cited Circe. The reason I'd say these are higher is that they have learned or tap sources other than just their worship.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Sept 28, 2011 23:23:04 GMT -5
Here's how I'd rank then between sky fathers from strongest to lowest: 1-Darseid 2-Zeus 3-High Father 4-Ares
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Post by creator on Sept 29, 2011 1:17:18 GMT -5
Ok. Good enough for me. In that case can I suggest we look at relevant feats for Darkseid, Highfather, Ares (DC) and Zeus (DC) to understand where they sit. On the basis that most of the Earthly pantheons were once Lords of Order or Chaos, I'd assume most to be at the level we've given them. Any exceptions that feats can verified can be cited separately in much the same way we have for Totec (a Lord of Chaos and Aztec God ). I'd say that the Greek Gods (since they were then created from the belief left after the LOO and LOC abandoned the guise) would be a little lower with the exception of maybe Zues and as we've already cited Circe. The reason I'd say these are higher is that they have learned or tap sources other than just their worship. The power level of Zeus and Ares seems higher than 24 as demonstrated by the reaction of Wonder Woman e.g. Being such a major threat.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Sept 29, 2011 2:43:11 GMT -5
On the basis that most of the Earthly pantheons were once Lords of Order or Chaos, I'd assume most to be at the level we've given them. Any exceptions that feats can verified can be cited separately in much the same way we have for Totec (a Lord of Chaos and Aztec God ). I'd say that the Greek Gods (since they were then created from the belief left after the LOO and LOC abandoned the guise) would be a little lower with the exception of maybe Zues and as we've already cited Circe. The reason I'd say these are higher is that they have learned or tap sources other than just their worship. The power level of Zeus and Ares seems higher than 24 as demonstrated by the reaction of Wonder Woman e.g. Being such a major threat. I'd agree that's why I suggested he would be an exception like Circe (26 IIRC) . Not as sure about Ares 24/5 sounds about right. Most of the others however would be 23/4 easily. I can't think of too many stand out feats for any. The fact that they all draw power through the worship of many (even if that many isn't the number it used to be ) would make them IMO at least 22 to 24 no lower in source. I'm just not sure how to rate any as I've not been too up on the WW mythos for decades, so I know no canon feats to judged by. The last feats I saw of the Greek Pantheon were against the Titans of old (Cronus etc - he would also be 25/6) in Then new Titans and Pan etc in Millenium, and war of the God's (as I cited for my ranking of Circe).
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