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Post by Ferro_Vida on Jan 11, 2011 19:19:33 GMT -5
“It is possible to stop most drug addiction in the United States within a very short time. Simply make all drugs available and sell them at cost. Label each drug with a precise description of what effect--good and bad--the drug will have on whoever takes it. This will require heroic honesty. Don't say that marijuana is addictive or dangerous when it is neither, as millions of people know--unlike ‘speed,’ which kills most unpleasantly, or heroin, which is addictive and difficult to kick.”
Above is the opening passage from the 1970 essay, Drugs, by Gore Vidal. Now, I’m not about to advocate legalizing all drugs, because to be perfectly frank this country and this society would not be ready for that; historically speaking whenever radical change has been forced on a population over a very short amount of time things have not ended well. In order for any lasting change to be accepted by the people and stick for the long term it needs to start with baby steps which, in this case, would be to legalize cannabis.
Now, before any of you conservative types out there decide to lynch me for saying this, please hear me out. If you haven’t already read Vidal’s thoughts on the matter I recommend that you do so, but I will highlight and expand on some of the points here. First of all, and contrary to popular belief, marijuana does not cause any long term effects, damaging effects when used recreationally. A study was conducted in 1990 wherein a test group of rhesus monkeys were essentially hooked up to an oxygen mask that covered their mouth and nostrils and pumped full of reefer smoke. The results, unsurprisingly, were that these monkeys showed signs of brain damage when compared to the control group. But that couldn’t possibly have had anything at all to do with the fact that they were being completely deprived of oxygen at the time, because that would just be silly.
Stigma against marijuana was initially created by those involved in the lumber industry when hemp became poised to replace wood in many of the ways that we use it. Since then that stigma has grown into a full on infection fueled by a general fear and ignorance of drugs. Parents are terrified of the “gateway effect;” that their children will smoke weed, get hooked, and then begin progressing to harder stuff. This often takes place because underground dealers mix in some of that harder stuff with their product in order to get people hooked more easily and ensure that they come back, assuming that what they mix in doesn’t kill the user. If cannabis was legalized then it would eliminate those shady figures hanging out on the edge of playgrounds because people would be able to get their “fix” over the counter; black markets only exist when there is demand for an illegal substance. Legitimize it and that black market disappears.
Similar logic was applied in America during the 1920s in the era of prohibition. The government attempted to “dry out” the country by placing a ban on alcohol. What did people do in response? Bootleggers would run in out of country drink through Canada and sell it under the counter, doctors would make a little extra on the side by “prescribing” whiskey to their patients, and some people even began brewing the stuff in their basements. It’s impressive really, when you look at the lengths that people will go to when they want something.
Some lobby groups have argued that legalizing marijuana means that workers will be allowed to be high at work. This is false, as the same rules that apply to drinking would apply to smoking pot. On the flip side, people have been arrested for possession of a few grams of weed and then been sentenced to up to four years in prison, which comes directly out of the tax payer’s pocket, by the way.
Inhaling a large amount of smoke will kill brain cells, but that is already risked by tobacco users and people who drink excessively. The only difference is that marijuana has less of a chance of causing long term damage, is less damaging to begin with, and the hemp plant can be used for virtually anything, and grown at a cost. In short, the benefit for legalizing marijuana far outweighs the few, over-hyped risks that would come with it.
These are my thoughts, but I would love to hear yours.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 11, 2011 19:24:36 GMT -5
Personally, I think pro-marijuana and anti-marijuana supporters are grossly misinformed by the larger problem. As well I can't say I completely agree with your conclusions.
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Post by Ferro_Vida on Jan 11, 2011 19:27:03 GMT -5
Personally, I think pro-marijuana and anti-marijuana supporters are grossly misinformed by the larger problem. As well I can't say I completely agree with your conclusions. Well, I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter. |
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Post by goku on Jan 11, 2011 19:27:54 GMT -5
Mary Jane is a plant, not a drug.  |
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Post by Decoy Elite on Jan 11, 2011 19:29:41 GMT -5
I'd say legalizing it would be the best choice at this point.
That way at least you can start taxing it.
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Post by Lunacyde Prime on Jan 11, 2011 19:33:48 GMT -5
The prohibition was not during the 50's  |
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Post by Ferro_Vida on Jan 11, 2011 19:36:31 GMT -5
The prohibition was not during the 50's I had my locations confused >_> |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 11, 2011 19:37:15 GMT -5
First of all saying that legalizing marijuana will stop illegal trade is simply not true. As proof of this, cigarettes are a the third largest illegal market done by criminal organizations in Canada. It get's worse... ever since Operation Sharq and Operation Colliseum hit (if you don't know what both those are and want to I'll elaborate), the illegall cigarette trade has served as a gateway to allow asian triad, biker and minor criminal gangs to get the money to expand their power and with the profits, move up the criminal ladder in Canada (the two highest tiers in Canada being Italian based mobs and the Hells)
Cigarettes are legal a very much regulated in Canada. Simply put, legalization will do nothing to stop criminal enterprises from benefiting from marijuana trade. In the above cigarette cases, it's an enterprise on the rise.
Second, saying marijuana doesn't cause some damage or addiction is untrue. It does, well documented as well. Just like excessive consumption of alcohol and the damage it can cause is well documented. What is worth scrutiny is the extent of the damage it causes (whom should actually be where the debate on whether it should be legal or not, as it would also serve to better examine the case of alcohol and cigarettes) and whether it would be O.K to legalize it for the same reason cigarettes are legal.
Personally, I don't mind marijuana. I've never tried it, vowed I never will. But I smoke, drink and swear. So I can't really claim moral superiority.
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Post by Ferro_Vida on Jan 11, 2011 19:47:30 GMT -5
First of all saying that legalizing marijuana will stop illegal trade is simply not true. As proof of this, cigarettes are a the third largest illegal market done by criminal organizations in Canada. It get's worse... ever since Operation Sharq and Operation Colliseum hit (if you don't know what both those are and want to I'll elaborate), the illegall cigarette trade has served as a gateway to allow asian triad, biker and minor criminal gangs to get the money to expand their power and with the profits, move up the criminal ladder in Canada (the two highest tiers in Canada being Italian based mobs and the Hells) Cigarettes are legal a very much regulated in Canada. Simply put, legalization will do nothing to stop criminal enterprises from benefiting from marijuana trade. In the above cigarette cases, it's an enterprise on the rise. Second, saying marijuana doesn't cause some damage or addiction is untrue. It does, well documented as well. Just like excessive consumption of alcohol and the damage it can cause is well documented. What is worth scrutiny is the extent of the damage it causes (whom should actually be where the debate on whether it should be legal or not, as it would also serve to better examine the case of alcohol and cigarettes) and whether it would be O.K to legalize it for the same reason cigarettes are legal. Personally, I don't mind marijuana. I've never tried it, vowed I never will. But I smoke, drink and swear. So I can't really claim moral superiority. Some background information on those operations would be welcomed. I didn't mean to say that it causes no damage, but it does cause less damage. Smoke inhalation will hurt you no matter where it comes from, and weed does contain some of the substances that are thought to cause cancer that are found in cigarettes. Casual use has not been shown to cause long term damage, though. Someone who uses excessively will risk some consequences, but the same can be said for alcohol users. There has been a link found between some psychological disorders and smoking excess amounts of weed, but only in people who have a history in their family of those disorders. There is evidence that it will precipitate the development of these disorders, but that is pretty much it. I don't smoke anything, or drink for that matter. But I also know people who do. Why shouldn't they be allowed to do so without fear of having their lives ruined for it? |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 11, 2011 20:10:13 GMT -5
Some background information on those operations would be welcomed. SharQc was the second and largest, a massive crackdown in the activities of the Hells Angels as that result in massive arrest of leaders that created a power vacuum in the Canadian underworld in 2009. Project Collisée was a similar operation targeting the Rizutto Crime family the De facto most powerful criminal operation in Canada in 2006. In both cases, the result was that by taking down the strongest groups who kept the others under control and restricted certain enterprises in favor or another has resulted in increased violence (there is currently a mafia war in Montreal between the Sicilian faction and the Calabrian faction that believe it or not is also partially because of something that happened in the 1980's) and expansion of enterprises that previously were unfavored like illegal cigarettes. With the Rizutto's and their Partnership with the Hell's in ruins. The Calabrians and Triad's are moving to take over the larger portions of organized crime in Canada. And just to hammer in how scary that is. Canada's italian mobs have, historically speaking since the late 1990's been stronger then the New York Five families and the Chicago outfit. That's because they were sole lords over a larger territory and put smaller gangs to work for them. Casual use has not been shown to cause long term damage, though. Someone who uses excessively will risk some consequences, but the same can be said for alcohol users. There has been a link found between some psychological disorders and smoking excess amounts of weed, but only in people who have a history in their family of those disorders. And again, research on marijuanna is woefully biased on either sides. Such as that I wouldn't hold up the evidence for marijuanna use more then the evidence against it. This is ignoring the problem that marijuana much as you can critique the "gateway" argument, still has side effects when under that cigarettes don't. I don't smoke anything, or drink for that matter. But I also know people who do. Why shouldn't they be allowed to do so without fear of having their lives ruined for it? Note I didn't say if I was for or against it per say. I'm just pointing out problems with your argument. Beyond that, while I don't think a person's life should be ruined because he smoked a joint. I do believe that whatever consequences of his actions are fully his responsibility. He made the choice, now he has the accept what comes of them. Just like with smoking. |
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Post by Ferro_Vida on Jan 11, 2011 21:09:10 GMT -5
Thank you for the background info there. However, those are some very particular circumstances. Do you think that legalizing pot would create a stronger black market for it? I'm not really sure why some of this matters to this particular thread.
The information I used came directly from articles on the health Canada website. Biased or not, it a as trustworthy a source as you are likely to find without conducting your own research into the matter.
I didn't mean to say that someone shouldn't have to suffer the consequences for their actions. But it's downright stupid to punish someone in such an extreme manner for something like that.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 11, 2011 22:13:49 GMT -5
Thank you for the background info there. However, those are some very particular circumstances. Do you think that legalizing pot would create a stronger black market for it? I do if they deal with in like cigarettes in Canada at least. Cigarettes are taxed to the extreme so much that a quart of cheap smokes is around 9.87$ at the convenience store I worked. They've also imposed heavy restrictions on where we can smoke and how/where advertising is concerned. This along with the power vacuum in the criminal underworld has no only meant that cigarettes are rife for becoming a key criminal enterprise. But since tobacco is low risk/legal to grow especially in certain region means a increasingly high demand for these illegal cigarettes because while a legal pack is 9.87$ with about 20 cigarettes inside. You can buy this contraband cigarettes for about 20$ for 250 cigarettes. People are understandably very tempted by them and the demand is increasing. I'm not really sure why some of this matters to this particular thread. Because the possible problem if legalization of marijuana passes will likely be very much the same. |
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 11, 2011 22:31:42 GMT -5
I am generally a conservative, but I agree with the opinions you shared in your post. I am neither fully for or against the legalization of marijuana.
Personally, I find it somewhat ridiculous that pot is banned with an iron fist while alcohol can be found at any corner gas station. Pot is far less addictive than alcohol (that is, if it's addictive at all. I'm not quite sure) and is usually far less dangerous when being used in large amounts. When driving, a drunk man will speed right through a stop sign without noticing it. A smoker will stop at the stop sign and remain stopped until it turns green. Drinkers often get into fights and beat their wives/children. Smokers just want to eat Doritos and play Super Mario. Plus, you never hear of somebody ODing on pot, whereas dying from alcohol poisoning is not entirely uncommon.
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Post by Ferro_Vida on Jan 11, 2011 22:43:40 GMT -5
I am generally a conservative, but I agree with the opinions you shared in your post. I am neither fully for or against the legalization of marijuana. Personally, I find it somewhat ridiculous that pot is banned with an iron fist while alcohol can be found at any corner gas station. Pot is far less addictive than alcohol (that is, if it's addictive at all. I'm not quite sure) and is usually far less dangerous when being used in large amounts. When driving, a drunk man will speed right through a stop sign without noticing it. A smoker will stop at the stop sign and remain stopped until it turns green. Drinkers often get into fights and beat their wives/children. Smokers just want to eat Doritos and play Super Mario. Plus, you never hear of somebody ODing on pot, whereas dying from alcohol poisoning is not entirely uncommon. Thanks for posting your thoughts, and I'm sorry if you thought I was targeting conservative people. I had more so the extreme conservatives in mind when I wrote that. |
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Post by Ferro_Vida on Jan 11, 2011 22:48:08 GMT -5
Thank you for the background info there. However, those are some very particular circumstances. Do you think that legalizing pot would create a stronger black market for it? I do if they deal with in like cigarettes in Canada at least. Cigarettes are taxed to the extreme so much that a quart of cheap smokes is around 9.87$ at the convenience store I worked. They've also imposed heavy restrictions on where we can smoke and how/where advertising is concerned. This along with the power vacuum in the criminal underworld has no only meant that cigarettes are rife for becoming a key criminal enterprise. But since tobacco is low risk/legal to grow especially in certain region means a increasingly high demand for these illegal cigarettes because while a legal pack is 9.87$ with about 20 cigarettes inside. You can buy this contraband cigarettes for about 20$ for 250 cigarettes. People are understandably very tempted by them and the demand is increasing. I'm not really sure why some of this matters to this particular thread. Because the possible problem if legalization of marijuana passes will likely be very much the same. Well it sounds like your concerns with the matter aren't so much the legalization of pot as it is the way that the government would handle the legalization of pot. If they were to tax it to the extreme then people would be likely to go to underground sources rather than government sanctioned ones. The purpose of the article was more meant to address the situation as it stands now and that if things were handled properly then the legalization of marijuana would be a good thing. Cigarettes may be one of the top illegally traded substances. But beer isn't. It more depends on how the government handles the situation, imo. |
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 11, 2011 23:16:06 GMT -5
I am generally a conservative, but I agree with the opinions you shared in your post. I am neither fully for or against the legalization of marijuana. Personally, I find it somewhat ridiculous that pot is banned with an iron fist while alcohol can be found at any corner gas station. Pot is far less addictive than alcohol (that is, if it's addictive at all. I'm not quite sure) and is usually far less dangerous when being used in large amounts. When driving, a drunk man will speed right through a stop sign without noticing it. A smoker will stop at the stop sign and remain stopped until it turns green. Drinkers often get into fights and beat their wives/children. Smokers just want to eat Doritos and play Super Mario. Plus, you never hear of somebody ODing on pot, whereas dying from alcohol poisoning is not entirely uncommon. Thanks for posting your thoughts, and I'm sorry if you thought I was targeting conservative people. I had more so the extreme conservatives in mind when I wrote that. No worries. I didn't feel like I was being targeted or anything. I was just pointing out by background and view on the subject. |
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 12, 2011 13:19:27 GMT -5
Legalizing drugs will likely have a terrible impact on the U.S. We will have idiots coming into work stoned out of their minds.
Domestic violence will sky rocket for houses that use more hardcore drugs like heroin.
Women that are pregnant while using will suffer massive amounts of miscarries, stillbirths and those infants that survive birth will go through withdrawal and have severe developmental issues growing up.
Not to mention that users of hardcore drugs will all kill themselves or damn near do the trick and have long term problems for the rest of their lives like liver disease, pneumonia and heart complications.
I see no real benefit to legalizing drugs unless the goal is to make our healthcare system even worse than it already is.
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Post by Decoy Elite on Jan 12, 2011 13:22:22 GMT -5
People wouldn't show up to work high for the same reason that they don't show up to work shit faced drunk. They'd get fired.
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 12, 2011 13:41:13 GMT -5
People wouldn't show up to work high for the same reason that they don't show up to work shit faced drunk. They'd get fired. I have friends that start the day lighting one or two up. They smoke weed on their breaks at work the dumbasses. Making it legal would just make people less afraid about hiding it which in turn means more people like my brilliant friends popping up. |
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Post by Decoy Elite on Jan 12, 2011 13:44:29 GMT -5
People wouldn't show up to work high for the same reason that they don't show up to work shit faced drunk. They'd get fired. I have friends that start the day lighting one or two up. They smoke weed on their breaks at work the dumbasses. Making it legal would just make people less afraid about hiding it which in turn means more people like my brilliant friends popping up. Seeing as they're already doing it now, I really don't see legalizing it will make everyone else go "oh shit! We better start doing that too!". I mean I understand, yes some people will be dumbasses about it, but they're going to be dumbasses about it legal or not. |
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