|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 29, 2010 14:45:54 GMT -5
Neither the New Gods or the Olympians are correct. Before and always was the Presence and the presence created Lucifer and Micheal Demiurgos. These two willed all existence into being. So the angels and then the endless were created. From there came the basis of the universe. All the other gods that came afterward were the product of the Godwave whom empowered or created the other gods. Somewhere in there Lucifer rebelled and was cast out. You yourself are going by Vertigo's version which isn't any more correct than any other. It really isn't that plain at all. Not to mention that the Godwave has basically been forgotten by modern continuity.
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Dec 29, 2010 14:47:36 GMT -5
You yourself are going by Vertigo's version which isn't anymore correct than any other. It really isn't that plain at all. Not to mention that the Godwave has basically been forgotten by modern continuity. Godwave is forgotten or just not used?
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 29, 2010 14:51:21 GMT -5
Erik-El - Forgotten. It's hasn't been referenced in at least ten years, and plenty of alternate explanations have been put forth since.
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Dec 29, 2010 15:01:21 GMT -5
Erik-El - Forgotten. It's hasn't been referenced in at least ten years, and plenty of alternate explanations have been put forth since. That is interesting because The godwave was a consistent presence in Wonder Woman, at least for a while. Diana and Cassie were able to channel it and it was the focus of a major Wonder Woman story arc. What was the explanation? What is the origin history for the gods if the Heaven one is not accurate?
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 29, 2010 15:09:06 GMT -5
That is interesting because The godwave was a consistent presence in Wonder Woman, at least for a while. Diana and Cassie were able to channel it and it was the focus of a major Wonder Woman story arc. What was the explanation? What is the origin history for the gods if the Heaven one is not accurate? Consistent at the time. I don't know if you've read Gail Simone's Wonder Woman, but it introduces a race called Ichor, which apparently spawned the Olympians and heal them after the torture Darkseid put them through. They're a fairly minor plot point, but clearly contradict Godwave.
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Dec 29, 2010 15:11:21 GMT -5
That is interesting because The godwave was a consistent presence in Wonder Woman, at least for a while. Diana and Cassie were able to channel it and it was the focus of a major Wonder Woman story arc. What was the explanation? What is the origin history for the gods if the Heaven one is not accurate? Consistent at the time. I don't know if you've read Gail Simone's Wonder Woman, but it introduces a race called Ichor, which apparently spawned the Olympians and heal them after the torture Darkseid put them through. They're a fairly minor plot point, but clearly contradict Godwave. Not yet. I am still on 162 of Wonder Woman Volume 2. You are talking about Volume 3 right?
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 29, 2010 15:12:43 GMT -5
Yes. Relatively recent.
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Dec 29, 2010 15:15:12 GMT -5
But does the mentioned story retcon the godwave or is it just a plot hole? Because with it being such a massive presence in the Wonder Woman arc, one story does not undo several in my eye. I could accept it changing one aspect of a previous story but what about all the others? Any explanation for those?
|
|
|
Post by Crom-Cruach on Dec 29, 2010 15:15:36 GMT -5
You yourself are going by Vertigo's version which isn't any more correct than any other. It really isn't that plain at all. Not to mention that the Godwave has basically been forgotten by modern continuity. Eh with all the rewrites, I go for consistence and logic. That one is unlike all the bullcrap who get trying to piece together from different writers and it makes more sense then 90% of the other options.
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 29, 2010 15:31:54 GMT -5
Eh with all the rewrites, I go for consistence and logic. That one is unlike all the bullcrap who get trying to piece together from different writers and it makes more sense then 90% of the other options. The only thing consistent in DC is that GOD is sitting at the top of creation. Other than that, nothing is consistent. I'm not getting this. It doesn't mention the Godwave at all, it just plain contradicts it. Other aspects... What other aspects? Name them and we can see. BTW, that huge part of Wonder Woman, was it written by Byrne?
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Dec 29, 2010 15:37:16 GMT -5
Eh with all the rewrites, I go for consistence and logic. That one is unlike all the bullcrap who get trying to piece together from different writers and it makes more sense then 90% of the other options. The only thing consistent in DC is that GOD is sitting at the top of creation. Other than that, nothing is consistent. I'm not getting this. It doesn't mention the Godwave at all, it just plain contradicts it. Other aspects... What other aspects? Name them and we can see. BTW, that huge part of Wonder Woman, was it written by Byrne? Godwar was written by Eric Luke. So if it just contradicts the godwave, would that not just contradict the one story instead of all of them?
|
|
|
Post by Crom-Cruach on Dec 29, 2010 15:41:30 GMT -5
The only thing consistent in DC is that GOD is sitting at the top of creation. Other than that, nothing is consistent. And none of the Lucifer series so far have been retconned so it still stands. Like I said this is personal opinion. I find the Lucifer/Endless mythos much more satisfying then all the rewrites and bullcrap that comes with it. They still stand as stories, are better in my opinion and make sense.
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 29, 2010 15:57:28 GMT -5
So if it just contradicts the godwave, would that not just contradict the one story instead of all of them? What all stories? Are you talking about the WW stories Godwave appears in? I never said anything about them I'd assume they're all canon, it's just the concept of Godwave being forgotten. Cromcruach wrote:Lucifer was never canon in the first place. The Presence certainly never abandoned it's damn throne for a little girl in the mainstream continuity.
|
|
|
Post by Supreme Marvel on Dec 29, 2010 15:59:12 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Erik-El on Dec 29, 2010 16:00:43 GMT -5
So if it just contradicts the godwave, would that not just contradict the one story instead of all of them? What all stories? Are you talking about the WW stories Godwave appears in? I never said anything about them I'd assume they're all canon, it's just the concept of Godwave being forgotten. Yeah I was. I guess I misinterpreted what you meant. I took what you said as meaning that the godwave no longer is a canon power. That it was written out of continuity.
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 29, 2010 16:00:54 GMT -5
I'm not adverse to it, I just don't take it to higher value than mainstream canon.
|
|
|
Post by Crom-Cruach on Dec 29, 2010 16:01:35 GMT -5
Lucifer was never canon in the first place. The Presence certainly never abandoned it's damn throne for a little girl in the mainstream continuity. That is debatable since Constantine has appeared in regular DC stories and Death recently appeared to Luthor. As for the Elain Belloc arc. If it happened, only those involved would know. The Presence's power is much greater then the rest the New Gods would only sense the change if he let it happen. chill dude.
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 29, 2010 16:06:41 GMT -5
That is debatable since Constantine has appeared in regular DC stories and Death recently appeared to Luthor. As for the Elain Belloc arc. If it happened, only those involved would know. The Presence's power is much greater then the rest the New Gods would only sense the change if he let it happen. chill dude. Death and Constantine are not Lucifer. They've been a part of the mainstream long before DC and Vertigo started to drift off. Lucifer has not. Lucifer went out of its way to be as removed from mainstream as possible. I'm not talking about the New Gods anymore. There are plenty of other characters, Spectre, Radiant, Neron, Zauriel etc. Who would notice any change taking place. I'm not angry. There's nothing to be angry about.
|
|
|
Post by Crom-Cruach on Dec 29, 2010 16:10:49 GMT -5
I'm not talking about the New Gods anymore. There are plenty of other characters, Spectre, Radiant, Neron, Zauriel etc. Who would notice any change taking place. how would they know unless the omnipotent/omniscient being let them? An omnipotent/omniscient being can will anything and it is. It could blindside them to the change without any effort.
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 29, 2010 16:17:01 GMT -5
how would they no unless the omnipotent/omniscient being let them? You think God would mask his nature from them? Why? Especially since Elaine made a point of being a completely different sort of God than.... Well, God. I think people would notice a shift in power at the highest level.
|
|