Captain America vs Batman

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 8:36:14 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 8:29:00 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Bruce does not move faster than a bullet right?
Cap's reflexes allow him to dodge bullets because he sees faster.
I can't imagine how Bruce will move fast enough to suddenly disappear in front of cap.
And who said that Thing did not hurt Hulk when he punched him. There is not different.
Cap is superhuman and his shield is as hard as adamantium and his skills allows him to land well placed hits that are followed with by his strength. Bruce has been hurt by peak humans.
The only thing that prevents cap from one shotting him, it's his character.

No offense, Spidey, but quite a bit of this post is wrong.
1. BatMan dodges bullets also. He has caught arrows, deflected bullets, even blocked bullets with his cape. So what?
2. BatMan has vanished in front of superhumans with much better senses than Steve's before. He disappeared in front Azrael, who has super senses; Lex Luthor and Mercy while both were only a couple feet away from him; four or five cops; a policeman pointing his gun straight at BatMan only a few feet away and then reappearing behind the same policeman; escaped a building before Jay Garrick could search the entire complex and find no trace of him; disappeared in front of Deadshot and several other supervillains; disappeared right under the entire JLA's noses, which included SuperMan and the Martian; etc. Fact is, stealth and disappearance are his modus operandi. He can disappear around Steve, especially given the smoke bombs.
3. Thing hurting Hulk is not the point. If Steve were able to hurt Hulk, Thing should one-shot him. Thor should have one-shotted him also. SpiderMan should have done much more harm to Hulk as well.
4. Steve is not superhuman.
5. Steve has been hurt by peak humans as well. But that does not detract from the fact that both have taken blows from superhumans.

1) Batman's reflexes does not matter here. I never argued about that cap will use stealth or something like that.
2) Sorry, but these feats, just does not make any sense. This is what i was debating the last time with you and a few other people about consistency. Just because it's something consistent, it doesn't mean it's valid. How can batman, be fast enough to vanish in front od someone who dodges bullets because he sees faster? Is batman faster than a bullet? He is not even close to this.
3) Just because cap is not as strong as the thing or thor, it does not really mean that his striking damage can not be effectively enough.
Just because Hulk withstood hit from stronger people. it does not mean he can not hurt by weaker. Same applies for spidey. He withstood hits from 25, 50 and 80 tonners. But cap's skills, shield and striking damage allows him to hurt him too.
4) Check the link. Cap has super human strength.

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 8:48:21 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Oct 23, 2010 8:36:14 GMT -5 Silver said:

No offense, Spidey, but quite a bit of this post is wrong.
1. BatMan dodges bullets also. He has caught arrows, deflected bullets, even blocked bullets with his cape. So what?
2. BatMan has vanished in front of superhumans with much better senses than Steve's before. He disappeared in front Azrael, who has super senses; Lex Luthor and Mercy while both were only a couple feet away from him; four or five cops; a policeman pointing his gun straight at BatMan only a few feet away and then reappearing behind the same policeman; escaped a building before Jay Garrick could search the entire complex and find no trace of him; disappeared in front of Deadshot and several other supervillains; disappeared right under the entire JLA's noses, which included SuperMan and the Martian; etc. Fact is, stealth and disappearance are his modus operandi. He can disappear around Steve, especially given the smoke bombs.
3. Thing hurting Hulk is not the point. If Steve were able to hurt Hulk, Thing should one-shot him. Thor should have one-shotted him also. SpiderMan should have done much more harm to Hulk as well.
4. Steve is not superhuman.
5. Steve has been hurt by peak humans as well. But that does not detract from the fact that both have taken blows from superhumans.

1) Batman's reflexes does not matter here. I never argued about that cap will use stealth or something like that.
2) Sorry, but these feats, just does not make any sense. This is what i was debating the last time with you and a few other people about consistency. Just because it's something consistent, it doesn't mean it's valid. How can batman, be fast enough to vanish in front od someone who dodges bullets because he sees faster? Is batman faster than a bullet? He is not even close to this.
3) Just because cap is not as strong as the thing or thor, it does not really mean that his striking damage can not be effectively enough.
Just because Hulk withstood hit from stronger people. it does not mean he can not hurt by weaker. Same applies for spidey. He withstood hits from 25, 50 and 80 tonners. But cap's skills, shield and striking damage allows him to hurt him too.
4) Check the link. Cap has super human strength.

1. Fair enough.
2. How does Daredevil tip over a car? How does BatMan bench press a ton? How does any non-metahuman dodge bullets? Who cares? Comic characters are able to do unrealistic things.
3. There is a massive difference in durability between SpiderMan and Hulk. That comparison just does not hold up. Again, BatMan hurting Darkseid. He did it, but that does not match what has been consistently shown. Darkseid avatars regularly take multiple blows from SuperMan. If BatMan were that physically powerful, he would have killed Shiva with a tap on the head a long time ago.
4. Not buying it. I have seen that refuted numerous times. It does not apply. Besides, if characters who can lift 800 lbs are superhuman, then BatMan and Daredevil are as well.

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 8:47:27 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 8:39:41 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

I got the scan from Morph. I guess the ones that you saw are outdated...lol
My point with that scan was that cap's strength allowed him to throw the shield, to reach a missile that was already fired and destroy a small part of it. That obviously needs amazing strength and skill in order to be accomplished.
I don't see how Bat's strength is relevant here. We are just debating how Cap will put Bruce down with a few shield dashes.
Again i don't see how it's PIS. Hulk has withstood hits from stronger people in the same way he withstood the shield dash.
My point is that he withstood those hits, but that does not mean he was not hurt at all. Same here. He withstood the shield dash, he was not KOed, but he was hurt by that.
I don't see how Hulk's anatomy should be any different from a normal human. I never seen anyone stating that.

I only brought up a strength feat for BatMan because a feat for Cap was shown. I really have no idea how that is relevant either. It proves nothing I did not already know. BatMan supporting massive building rubble after it collapsed requires incredible strength also. I am not seeing the point in mentioning those.

It is PIS because stronger characters than Steve have failed to hurt Hulk. Again, several characters should have one-shotted Hulk if Steve could pull that off. If that showing was legitimate, then I could say that BatMan could one-shot Cap because he has hurt a Darkseid avatar twice, if I remember correctly. It makes no sense.

Hulk's anatomy in general is different. How many people do you know that are 10 feet tall, green, and have a few thousands pounds of muscle? Sorry to be sarcastic, but his build as a whole is different from a normal human's body.

There was a reason that i brought that scan. I wanted to show that cap is pretty strong and he knows how to use his shield, with his strength in order to hurt more durable people.

No, these stronger people have hurt Hulk. Hulk was just able to withstand it. The characters that you have mention does not have the level of skill that cap has. And again, maybe cap is not as strong as the thing but he still has super human strength. And if you combine this with his level of skill, and the fact that his weapon is as hard as adamantium, the striking damage that can cause with these advantages, should be high enough to hurt Hulk, not KO him, but hurt him. Hurting darkseid is not the same with that. Batman does not have super human strength neither a weapon that is as hard and powerful as adamantium. Do i have to mention that Darkseid is far more durable than Hulk? That's why it does not make sense. But i have explained, why hurting Hulk makes sense.

The differences that you have mentioned does not really affect the weak spots that Hulk has. But even if they were different. Cap has fought Hulk more than once. Logically he should study him and his weak spots just like he did with spider-man. So it still makes sense.

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 9:00:01 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

There was a reason that i brought that scan. I wanted to show that cap is pretty strong and he knows how to use his shield, with his strength in order to hurt more durable people.

No, these stronger people have hurt Hulk. Hulk was just able to withstand it. The characters that you have mention does not have the level of skill that cap has. And again, maybe cap is not as strong as the thing but he still has super human strength. And if you combine this with his level of skill, and the fact that his weapon is as hard as adamantium, the striking damage that can cause with these advantages, should be high enough to hurt Hulk, not KO him, but hurt him. Hurting darkseid is not the same with that. Batman does not have super human strength neither a weapon that is as hard and powerful as adamantium. Do i have to mention that Darkseid is far more durable than Hulk? That's why it does not make sense. But i have explained, why hurting Hulk makes sense.

The differences that you have mentioned does not really affect the weak spots that Hulk has. But even if they were different. Cap has fought Hulk more than once. Logically he should study him and his weak spots just like he did with spider-man. So it still makes sense.

Alright.

SpiderMan has failed altogether to hurt Hulk before. SpiderMan's strength>Cap's strength. Once again, I do not buy Steve having super strength. He has never been referred to or categorized as superhuman in any comic I have seen. All I have is one scan you posted, the source of which I have no idea. That scale does not even match the ones I have seen before. Again, if Steve can do that to Hulk, why has he not one-shotted opponents more times than that? Honestly, why has he not one-shotted SpiderMan with his shield? Or Wolverine? Or Black Panther? His hurting Hulk is not consistent with his showings. BatMan may have harmed characters with SuperMan+ level durability more than once, but that in no way makes it consistent. Hence why it is illegitimate.

Again, comparing Hulk to SpiderMan is not a fair comparison. There are more differences between the two than I care to list.

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 8:54:01 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 8:48:21 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

1) Batman's reflexes does not matter here. I never argued about that cap will use stealth or something like that.
2) Sorry, but these feats, just does not make any sense. This is what i was debating the last time with you and a few other people about consistency. Just because it's something consistent, it doesn't mean it's valid. How can batman, be fast enough to vanish in front od someone who dodges bullets because he sees faster? Is batman faster than a bullet? He is not even close to this.
3) Just because cap is not as strong as the thing or thor, it does not really mean that his striking damage can not be effectively enough.
Just because Hulk withstood hit from stronger people. it does not mean he can not hurt by weaker. Same applies for spidey. He withstood hits from 25, 50 and 80 tonners. But cap's skills, shield and striking damage allows him to hurt him too.
4) Check the link. Cap has super human strength.

1. Fair enough.
2. How does Daredevil tip over a car? How does BatMan bench press a ton? How does any non-metahuman dodge bullets? Who cares? Comic characters are able to do unrealistic things.
3. There is a massive difference in durability between SpiderMan and Hulk. That comparison just does not hold up. Again, BatMan hurting Darkseid. He did it, but that does not match what has been consistently shown. Darkseid avatars regularly take multiple blows from SuperMan. If BatMan were that physically powerful, he would have killed Shiva with a tap on the head a long time ago.
4. Not buying it. I have seen that refuted numerous times. It does not apply. Besides, if characters who can lift 800 lbs are superhuman, then BatMan and Daredevil are as well.

1) In comic word, it can happen everything. But this is not a comic, it's a comic site. We try to use things that makes sense. And even of some people are non meta human, they are close to it. There are many that are peak humans. We have never really see how a human that is perfect in terms of reflexes and strength is, so we should buy the translation of Marvel and DC's peak humans and what they can do. But bats being able to accomplish something that a bullet does, it does not make sense.
2) I was not trying to compare Hulk with Pete. I was trying to prove that some people takes hit from amazingly strong people but they can also be hurt by a lot weaker people, if these poeple has the skill and weapons to accomplish it. I have already address the thing with Darksied in my other post.
3) I don't see why you shouldn't buy it. This has been used by many credible users on the site. Also this is how Marvel rates its character. Also 800 lbs it's the very least that cap can lift. When he didn't have his SSS, he was still able to lift 800 lbs. Without his SSS he is still a peak human. With it he is a super human and stronger than Batman and DD. Also, i think DD is more close to peak human other than super human.

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 9:06:11 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 9:00:01 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

There was a reason that i brought that scan. I wanted to show that cap is pretty strong and he knows how to use his shield, with his strength in order to hurt more durable people.

No, these stronger people have hurt Hulk. Hulk was just able to withstand it. The characters that you have mention does not have the level of skill that cap has. And again, maybe cap is not as strong as the thing but he still has super human strength. And if you combine this with his level of skill, and the fact that his weapon is as hard as adamantium, the striking damage that can cause with these advantages, should be high enough to hurt Hulk, not KO him, but hurt him. Hurting darkseid is not the same with that. Batman does not have super human strength neither a weapon that is as hard and powerful as adamantium. Do i have to mention that Darkseid is far more durable than Hulk? That's why it does not make sense. But i have explained, why hurting Hulk makes sense.

The differences that you have mentioned does not really affect the weak spots that Hulk has. But even if they were different. Cap has fought Hulk more than once. Logically he should study him and his weak spots just like he did with spider-man. So it still makes sense.

Alright.

SpiderMan has failed altogether to hurt Hulk before. SpiderMan's strength>Cap's strength. Once again, I do not buy Steve having super strength. He has never been referred to or categorized as superhuman in any comic I have seen. All I have is one scan you posted, the source of which I have no idea. That scale does not even match the ones I have seen before. Again, if Steve can do that to Hulk, why has he not one-shotted opponents more times than that? Honestly, why has he not one-shotted SpiderMan with his shield? Or Wolverine? Or Black Panther? His hurting Hulk is not consistent with his showings. BatMan may have harmed characters with SuperMan+ level durability more than once, but that in no way makes it consistent. Hence why it is illegitimate.

Again, comparing Hulk to SpiderMan is not a fair comparison. There are more differences between the two than I care to list.

If we go by what it was shown, spider-ma has hurt hulk before. But i'm not buying this, because he does not have this skill that is needed. If we go by showings, cap when he didn't have his SSS, he was still able to lift 800 lbs. Imagine what he would do with his SSS. He should obviously be super human or close to it. Also, he has been mentioned as enhanced human. Something barely below superhuman and above peak. So with both statements, Steve is above peak. Cap has never one shotted any of the people that you mentioned, because it's not in his character to do it. That's why i didn't say that he won't one shot Bruce. Also, i think there was a time that he one shotted Logan with a well placed hit, but i'm not sure about it. But i;m sure there was a time that he KOed him.
I have already explained the thing about Pete and Hulk.

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 9:12:23 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

1) In comic word, it can happen everything. But this is not a comic, it's a comic site. We try to use things that makes sense. And even of some people are non meta human, they are close to it. There are many that are peak humans. We have never really see how a human that is perfect in terms of reflexes and strength is, so we should buy the translation of Marvel and DC's peak humans and what they can do. But bats being able to accomplish something that a bullet does, it does not make sense.
2) I was not trying to compare Hulk with Pete. I was trying to prove that some people takes hit from amazingly strong people but they can also be hurt by a lot weaker people, if these poeple has the skill and weapons to accomplish it. I have already address the thing with Darksied in my other post.
3) I don't see why you shouldn't buy it. This has been used by many credible users on the site. Also this is how Marvel rates its character. Also 800 lbs it's the very least that cap can lift. When he didn't have his SSS, he was still able to lift 800 lbs. Without his SSS he is still a peak human. With it he is a super human and stronger than Batman and DD. Also, i think DD is more close to peak human other than super human.

1. Then BatMan being able to dodge a bullet is illegitimate also. How can he outreact a bullet? Does that make sense? No. Is it consistent and perfectly within his capabilities? Yes. Think of Daken. He has disappeared around people without using any of his powers, namely his pheromones, and he is only peak human. He has said himself he has no superhuman speed, needs no powers to do that. He can because that is what he was trained for. Is that illegitimate also? And for the record, we do know what people are capable of at the peak of physical conditioning. Based on records of physical feats, we can gain an accurate estimation.
2. Either way, the analogy did not hold up. There is nothing remotely similar about SpiderMan and Hulk's durability.
3. I have never seen any other user use that as proof. Cap being stronger than BatMan and Daredevil is not the point. The point is that both can lift that weight, based on strength feats. BatMan has supported 1000 pounds, benched a ton, supported building rubble, ripped a steel vault door out of a wall while underwater, etc. Daredevil has struck through bricks, thrown a 400 lb. weight across the room, tipped over a car, etc. How are these not beyond the 800 lb. lifting level? That would make both of them superhuman also. I still have not seen the source for that scan either.

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 9:21:25 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Oct 23, 2010 9:06:11 GMT -5 Silver said:

Alright.

SpiderMan has failed altogether to hurt Hulk before. SpiderMan's strength>Cap's strength. Once again, I do not buy Steve having super strength. He has never been referred to or categorized as superhuman in any comic I have seen. All I have is one scan you posted, the source of which I have no idea. That scale does not even match the ones I have seen before. Again, if Steve can do that to Hulk, why has he not one-shotted opponents more times than that? Honestly, why has he not one-shotted SpiderMan with his shield? Or Wolverine? Or Black Panther? His hurting Hulk is not consistent with his showings. BatMan may have harmed characters with SuperMan+ level durability more than once, but that in no way makes it consistent. Hence why it is illegitimate.

Again, comparing Hulk to SpiderMan is not a fair comparison. There are more differences between the two than I care to list.

If we go by what it was shown, spider-ma has hurt hulk before. But i'm not buying this, because he does not have this skill that is needed. If we go by showings, cap when he didn't have his SSS, he was still able to lift 800 lbs. Imagine what he would do with his SSS. He should obviously be super human or close to it. Also, he has been mentioned as enhanced human. Something barely below superhuman and above peak. So with both statements, Steve is above peak. Cap has never one shotted any of the people that you mentioned, because it's not in his character to do it. That's why i didn't say that he won't one shot Bruce. Also, i think there was a time that he one shotted Logan with a well placed hit, but i'm not sure about it. But i;m sure there was a time that he KOed him.
I have already explained the thing about Pete and Hulk.

You mistook what I said. I never said that Cap was only peak human, and I never said that he was not enhanced. I said he was not superhuman. He has never been classified as such in any comic I have read, and statements about his physicality have always placed him as enhanced, physically prime, or something of the like. I was never arguing that he is only peak human. I was arguing that he is not superhuman.

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 9:22:43 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 9:12:23 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

1) In comic word, it can happen everything. But this is not a comic, it's a comic site. We try to use things that makes sense. And even of some people are non meta human, they are close to it. There are many that are peak humans. We have never really see how a human that is perfect in terms of reflexes and strength is, so we should buy the translation of Marvel and DC's peak humans and what they can do. But bats being able to accomplish something that a bullet does, it does not make sense.
2) I was not trying to compare Hulk with Pete. I was trying to prove that some people takes hit from amazingly strong people but they can also be hurt by a lot weaker people, if these poeple has the skill and weapons to accomplish it. I have already address the thing with Darksied in my other post.
3) I don't see why you shouldn't buy it. This has been used by many credible users on the site. Also this is how Marvel rates its character. Also 800 lbs it's the very least that cap can lift. When he didn't have his SSS, he was still able to lift 800 lbs. Without his SSS he is still a peak human. With it he is a super human and stronger than Batman and DD. Also, i think DD is more close to peak human other than super human.

1. Then BatMan being able to dodge a bullet is illegitimate also. How can he outreact a bullet? Does that make sense? No. Is it consistent and perfectly within his capabilities? Yes. Think of Daken. He has disappeared around people without using any of his powers, namely his pheromones, and he is only peak human. He has said himself he has no superhuman speed, needs no powers to do that. He can because that is what he was trained for. Is that illegitimate also? And for the record, we do know what people are capable of at the peak of physical conditioning. Based on records of physical feats, we can gain an accurate estimation.
2. Either way, the analogy did not hold up. There is nothing remotely similar about SpiderMan and Hulk's durability.
3. I have never seen any other user use that as proof. Cap being stronger than BatMan and Daredevil is not the point. The point is that both can lift that weight, based on strength feats. BatMan has supported 1000 pounds, benched a ton, supported building rubble, ripped a steel vault door out of a wall while underwater, etc. Daredevil has struck through bricks, thrown a 400 lb. weight across the room, tipped over a car, etc. How are these not beyond the 800 lb. lifting level? That would make both of them superhuman also. I still have not seen the source for that scan either.

Being able to outreact a bullet it's not the same with outrunning it, it does not mean you are as fast as the bullet. It means that you think fast enough in order to outreact it. And since we don't know how fast a perfect mind can think, then we can not argue if it's PIS or not. Daken's skill it's not the same with being able to vanish in front of a bullet timing character. Daken's skills allowed him to attack where his opponent was not looking. He didn't somehow vanish and appeared behind his opponent. It sounds a bit strange, i know, but it's more logical than vanishing in front of people that outreact bullets.
The point was other. You wanted to say that Hulk has taken hits from stronger people than cap, so it's PIS that cap has hurt him. Spidey has also taken hits from stronger poeple than Cap. Why it is not PIS then? None of these events are PIS, because cap's strength combined with high level skills and a powerful weapon, should allow him to hurt Hulk.
Morph, K4tz, Son Of Storm has used this as proof.
Also, There is another scan where cap has stated that he has super strength.
www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/cap/108-406425/acapstrai_ning/105-1334191/
Also, we are getting a bit off-topic anyway. The point is cap's strength being super human or close to it. Since we agree that he is close to it( even though this scan sows otherwise ), there is no point arguing about his strength.


Also sorry for the misunderstanding about arguing if he is above.

[Power NeXus]

Oct 23, 2010 9:54:21 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Oct 23, 2010 9:22:43 GMT -5 Silver said:

1. Then BatMan being able to dodge a bullet is illegitimate also. How can he outreact a bullet? Does that make sense? No. Is it consistent and perfectly within his capabilities? Yes. Think of Daken. He has disappeared around people without using any of his powers, namely his pheromones, and he is only peak human. He has said himself he has no superhuman speed, needs no powers to do that. He can because that is what he was trained for. Is that illegitimate also? And for the record, we do know what people are capable of at the peak of physical conditioning. Based on records of physical feats, we can gain an accurate estimation.
2. Either way, the analogy did not hold up. There is nothing remotely similar about SpiderMan and Hulk's durability.
3. I have never seen any other user use that as proof. Cap being stronger than BatMan and Daredevil is not the point. The point is that both can lift that weight, based on strength feats. BatMan has supported 1000 pounds, benched a ton, supported building rubble, ripped a steel vault door out of a wall while underwater, etc. Daredevil has struck through bricks, thrown a 400 lb. weight across the room, tipped over a car, etc. How are these not beyond the 800 lb. lifting level? That would make both of them superhuman also. I still have not seen the source for that scan either.

Being able to outreact a bullet it's not the same with outrunning it, it does not mean you are as fast as the bullet. It means that you think fast enough in order to outreact it. And since we don't know how fast a perfect mind can think, then we can not argue if it's PIS or not. Daken's skill it's not the same with being able to vanish in front of a bullet timing character. Daken's skills allowed him to attack where his opponent was not looking. He didn't somehow vanish and appeared behind his opponent. It sounds a bit strange, i know, but it's more logical than vanishing in front of people that outreact bullets.
The point was other. You wanted to say that Hulk has taken hits from stronger people than cap, so it's PIS that cap has hurt him. Spidey has also taken hits from stronger poeple than Cap. Why it is not PIS then? None of these events are PIS, because cap's strength combined with high level skills and a powerful weapon, should allow him to hurt Hulk.
Morph, K4tz, Son Of Storm has used this as proof.
Also, There is another scan where cap has stated that he has super strength.
www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/cap/108-406425/acapstrai_ning/105-1334191/
Also, we are getting a bit off-topic anyway. The point is cap's strength being super human or close to it. Since we agree that he is close to it( even though this scan sows otherwise ), there is no point arguing about his strength.


Also sorry for the misunderstanding about arguing if he is above.

Actually, Daken can just 'vanish and appear behind his opponent', even if his opponent is a bullet timer.

Hope this link works. It's my first time trying to give an image on this site.
www.comicvine.com/1133034_wolverine_origins__013_011_super/105-1180783/

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 10:41:29 GMT -5 Power NeXus said:

Oct 23, 2010 9:54:21 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Being able to outreact a bullet it's not the same with outrunning it, it does not mean you are as fast as the bullet. It means that you think fast enough in order to outreact it. And since we don't know how fast a perfect mind can think, then we can not argue if it's PIS or not. Daken's skill it's not the same with being able to vanish in front of a bullet timing character. Daken's skills allowed him to attack where his opponent was not looking. He didn't somehow vanish and appeared behind his opponent. It sounds a bit strange, i know, but it's more logical than vanishing in front of people that outreact bullets.
The point was other. You wanted to say that Hulk has taken hits from stronger people than cap, so it's PIS that cap has hurt him. Spidey has also taken hits from stronger poeple than Cap. Why it is not PIS then? None of these events are PIS, because cap's strength combined with high level skills and a powerful weapon, should allow him to hurt Hulk.
Morph, K4tz, Son Of Storm has used this as proof.
Also, There is another scan where cap has stated that he has super strength.
www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/cap/108-406425/acapstrai_ning/105-1334191/
Also, we are getting a bit off-topic anyway. The point is cap's strength being super human or close to it. Since we agree that he is close to it( even though this scan sows otherwise ), there is no point arguing about his strength.


Also sorry for the misunderstanding about arguing if he is above.

Actually, Daken can just 'vanish and appear behind his opponent', even if his opponent is a bullet timer.

Hope this link works. It's my first time trying to give an image on this site.
www.comicvine.com/1133034_wolverine_origins__013_011_super/105-1180783/

I'm not sure if i'm correct but at the third panel of the page, Logan's eyes were looking at a different direction.

[Power NeXus]

Oct 23, 2010 10:44:11 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Oct 23, 2010 10:41:29 GMT -5 Power NeXus said:

Actually, Daken can just 'vanish and appear behind his opponent', even if his opponent is a bullet timer.

Hope this link works. It's my first time trying to give an image on this site.
www.comicvine.com/1133034_wolverine_origins__013_011_super/105-1180783/

I'm not sure if i'm correct but at the third panel of the page, Logan's eyes were looking at a different direction.

Hmm. True dat, I guess.

[Erik-El]

I think Rogers has this after an incredible fight. Even though I think giving Batman unlimited batarangs is a bit much.

[Morpheus]

Oct 23, 2010 11:03:45 GMT -5 Power NeXus said:

Oct 23, 2010 10:44:11 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

I'm not sure if i'm correct but at the third panel of the page, Logan's eyes were looking at a different direction.

Hmm. True dat, I guess.

Logan's eyes are fixed on Daken. Since the last two panels of the page are evidently seen from his POV.

[spidey_17]

I think there is a good explanation on how Daken was able to accomplish it even when Logan was looking at him. Logically, reflexes work better while you are focus and Logan did not seem to focus while he was talking with Daken. So Daken's skill allowed him to move without Logan being able to realize it. I hope this makes sense.
=]

[Morpheus]

Oct 23, 2010 12:28:05 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

I think there is a good explanation on how Daken was able to accomplish it even when Logan was looking at him. Logically, reflexes work better while you are focus and Logan did not seem to focus while he was talking with Daken. So Daken's skill allowed him to move without Logan being able to realize it. I hope this makes sense.
=]

That would make sense if he hadn't done it on several different people, on multiple occasions.

[Erik-El]

It sure is a good thing that Daken has nothing to do with this thread then.

[Morpheus]

Oct 23, 2010 12:31:06 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

It sure is a good thing that Daken has nothing to do with this thread then.

I have no idea how he was even brought up. I just decided to check out some of the arguments and his name was the first thing I saw. It's a conspiracy.

[Erik-El]

Oct 23, 2010 12:34:17 GMT -5 Morpheus said:

Oct 23, 2010 12:31:06 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

It sure is a good thing that Daken has nothing to do with this thread then.

I have no idea how he was even brought up. I just decided to check out some of the arguments and his name was the first thing I saw. It's a conspiracy.

I agree.

[Decoy Elite]

Daken...uh.....he...yeah I don't know what Daken's doing here. Morph bait? If so, it worked.