Captain America vs Batman

[spidey_17]

@moprheus:
Dare to say that these instances might be a bad writing? It's difficult to believe that a character can vanished in front of characters with bullet timing reflexes.

Erik-El:
Decoy Elite:

Silver and i were discussing about batman using stealth against cap. And i said that cap's reflexes should let him to know what Bruce will going to do, without vanishing in front of him. And he brought up some examples of Bruce using stealth and being able to vanish in front of super powered people. And he also brought up Daken who has a similar ability, to help his case.
=]

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 9:54:21 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Being able to outreact a bullet it's not the same with outrunning it, it does not mean you are as fast as the bullet. It means that you think fast enough in order to outreact it. And since we don't know how fast a perfect mind can think, then we can not argue if it's PIS or not. Daken's skill it's not the same with being able to vanish in front of a bullet timing character. Daken's skills allowed him to attack where his opponent was not looking. He didn't somehow vanish and appeared behind his opponent. It sounds a bit strange, i know, but it's more logical than vanishing in front of people that outreact bullets.
The point was other. You wanted to say that Hulk has taken hits from stronger people than cap, so it's PIS that cap has hurt him. Spidey has also taken hits from stronger poeple than Cap. Why it is not PIS then? None of these events are PIS, because cap's strength combined with high level skills and a powerful weapon, should allow him to hurt Hulk.
Morph, K4tz, Son Of Storm has used this as proof.
Also, There is another scan where cap has stated that he has super strength.
www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/cap/108-406425/acapstrai_ning/105-1334191/
Also, we are getting a bit off-topic anyway. The point is cap's strength being super human or close to it. Since we agree that he is close to it( even though this scan sows otherwise ), there is no point arguing about his strength.


Also sorry for the misunderstanding about arguing if he is above.

You can't have it both ways. Either all of BatMan's consistent feats are legitimate, or none of them are. If his stealth capabilities are illegitimate, then so are his reflexes. We can argue PIS because people cannot really dodge bullets. Tipping over cars, dodging bullets, etc. is not possible in reality. If we were to disregard one of BatMan's abilities, then nothing he has consistently shown to do is legitimate.

Daken has vanished in front of several characters more than once, and he has done so without the use of any superhuman traits.

Again, stop comparing SpiderMan and Hulk. The comparison does not hold up at all. Their physicality has nothing in common. Cap's strength is not sufficient for any weapon he would use, regardless of how hard it is, to harm Hulk. And I honestly could care less what other users have used as an argument. They are not the ones debating me; you are. You have to prove your case to me.

Steve has no super strength. He has been classified as enhanced or peak physically several times. One statement does not outweigh a myriad of others. Steve's strength is close to superhuman. In fact, all of his physical attributes are close to superhuman, but he is not a metahuman.

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 20:45:01 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 9:54:21 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Being able to outreact a bullet it's not the same with outrunning it, it does not mean you are as fast as the bullet. It means that you think fast enough in order to outreact it. And since we don't know how fast a perfect mind can think, then we can not argue if it's PIS or not. Daken's skill it's not the same with being able to vanish in front of a bullet timing character. Daken's skills allowed him to attack where his opponent was not looking. He didn't somehow vanish and appeared behind his opponent. It sounds a bit strange, i know, but it's more logical than vanishing in front of people that outreact bullets.
The point was other. You wanted to say that Hulk has taken hits from stronger people than cap, so it's PIS that cap has hurt him. Spidey has also taken hits from stronger poeple than Cap. Why it is not PIS then? None of these events are PIS, because cap's strength combined with high level skills and a powerful weapon, should allow him to hurt Hulk.
Morph, K4tz, Son Of Storm has used this as proof.
Also, There is another scan where cap has stated that he has super strength.
www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/cap/108-406425/acapstrai_ning/105-1334191/
Also, we are getting a bit off-topic anyway. The point is cap's strength being super human or close to it. Since we agree that he is close to it( even though this scan sows otherwise ), there is no point arguing about his strength.


Also sorry for the misunderstanding about arguing if he is above.

You can't have it both ways. Either all of BatMan's consistent feats are legitimate, or none of them are. If his stealth capabilities are illegitimate, then so are his reflexes. We can argue PIS because people cannot really dodge bullets. Tipping over cars, dodging bullets, etc. is not possible in reality. If we were to disregard one of BatMan's abilities, then nothing he has consistently shown to do is legitimate.

Daken has vanished in front of several characters more than once, and he has done so without the use of any superhuman traits.

Again, stop comparing SpiderMan and Hulk. The comparison does not hold up at all. Their physicality has nothing in common. Cap's strength is not sufficient for any weapon he would use, regardless of how hard it is, to harm Hulk. And I honestly could care less what other users have used as an argument. They are not the ones debating me; you are. You have to prove your case to me.

Steve has no super strength. He has been classified as enhanced or peak physically several times. One statement does not outweigh a myriad of others. Steve's strength is close to superhuman. In fact, all of his physical attributes are close to superhuman, but he is not a metahuman.

Reflexes can not be argued as PIS since we don't know how fast a peak human is. So we have to take what DC or Marvel gives us.
Also, i never said that Bruce's feats are PIS. I said that some of the are. But we can make something different. Has Batman ever vanished in front of a bullet timer while he was in battle and while he was focused on the battle? If no, then i there is an explanation on why he was able to vanish in front of bullet timers. They just weren't focused.
Again, i didn't compare, spider-man with Hulk. I just gave a random character who has taken hits from a lot stronger people than cap but he was also hurt by cap. Just because you are durable enough to take powerful blows, it does not mean you can not be hurt by weaker ones. Same applies for Hulk. Also cap does not need super human strength to hurt hulk when he has the skills and the perfect weapon that can help him to do it. But cap actually has super human strength or it's very close to it. These are enough to hurt someone who actually has weak spots like everyone else. Also, you just asked me which debaters have used this as evidence and i gave some names, nothing more.
And if i compare cap's showing with that statement, he actually has super human strength, but i won't argue about it since, he does not really need super human strength.

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 21:01:04 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Reflexes can not be argued as PIS since we don't know how fast a peak human is. So we have to take what DC or Marvel gives us.
Also, i never said that Bruce's feats are PIS. I said that some of the are. But we can make something different. Has Batman ever vanished in front of a bullet timer while he was in battle and while he was focused on the battle? If no, then i there is an explanation on why he was able to vanish in front of bullet timers. They just weren't focused.
Again, i didn't compare, spider-man with Hulk. I just gave a random character who has taken hits from a lot stronger people than cap but he was also hurt by cap. Just because you are durable enough to take powerful blows, it does not mean you can not be hurt by weaker ones. Same applies for Hulk. Also cap does not need super human strength to hurt hulk when he has the skills and the perfect weapon that can help him to do it. But cap actually has super human strength or it's very close to it. These are enough to hurt someone who actually has weak spots like everyone else. Also, you just asked me which debaters have used this as evidence and i gave some names, nothing more.
And if i compare cap's showing with that statement, he actually has super human strength, but i won't argue about it since, he does not really need super human strength.

Yes, they can. Dodging bullets is completely unrealistic, especially the way certain DC and Marvel characters have managed it. BatMan once heard a bullet being fired from behind and dodged it. Being able to do that is completely unrealistic, the same as most of BatMan's physical feats. If one of his showings is illegitimate, all of them. And I think I actually could find an example of BatMan disappearing during combat, but I honestly have no need to. The fact is that this battle starts 50 yards apart, and BatMan has smoke bombs. There is plenty of opportunity for him vanish from sight.

SpiderMan has been hurt much more by stronger opponents than he has by Steve though. That is the difference. Venom/Brock has floored him in a few hits before. Rogers may have enhanced strength, but he would never get off that easy. I still am not seeing Hulk hurt by Cap as legitimate. It makes no sense. Steve knowing his anatomy well enough to land a strike in a vulnerable point is questionable enough. His strength is insufficient to do the damage anyway. And his shield's hardness is irrelevant given those two points.

I never asked which debaters used that as an argument. I said I have never seen anyone use it as an argument. It really makes no difference to me who has.

His strength is obviously close to superhuman. Honestly, the same could be said for several street level characters without super strength.

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 21:16:16 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 21:01:04 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Reflexes can not be argued as PIS since we don't know how fast a peak human is. So we have to take what DC or Marvel gives us.
Also, i never said that Bruce's feats are PIS. I said that some of the are. But we can make something different. Has Batman ever vanished in front of a bullet timer while he was in battle and while he was focused on the battle? If no, then i there is an explanation on why he was able to vanish in front of bullet timers. They just weren't focused.
Again, i didn't compare, spider-man with Hulk. I just gave a random character who has taken hits from a lot stronger people than cap but he was also hurt by cap. Just because you are durable enough to take powerful blows, it does not mean you can not be hurt by weaker ones. Same applies for Hulk. Also cap does not need super human strength to hurt hulk when he has the skills and the perfect weapon that can help him to do it. But cap actually has super human strength or it's very close to it. These are enough to hurt someone who actually has weak spots like everyone else. Also, you just asked me which debaters have used this as evidence and i gave some names, nothing more.
And if i compare cap's showing with that statement, he actually has super human strength, but i won't argue about it since, he does not really need super human strength.

Yes, they can. Dodging bullets is completely unrealistic, especially the way certain DC and Marvel characters have managed it. BatMan once heard a bullet being fired from behind and dodged it. Being able to do that is completely unrealistic, the same as most of BatMan's physical feats. If one of his showings is illegitimate, all of them. And I think I actually could find an example of BatMan disappearing during combat, but I honestly have no need to. The fact is that this battle starts 50 yards apart, and BatMan has smoke bombs. There is plenty of opportunity for him vanish from sight.

SpiderMan has been hurt much more by stronger opponents than he has by Steve though. That is the difference. Venom/Brock has floored him in a few hits before. Rogers may have enhanced strength, but he would never get off that easy. I still am not seeing Hulk hurt by Cap as legitimate. It makes no sense. Steve knowing his anatomy well enough to land a strike in a vulnerable point is questionable enough. His strength is insufficient to do the damage anyway. And his shield's hardness is irrelevant given those two points.

I never asked which debaters used that as an argument. I said I have never seen anyone use it as an argument. It really makes no difference to me who has.

His strength is obviously close to superhuman. Honestly, the same could be said for several street level characters without super strength.

It's not completely unrealistically. You train your mind to think fast enough at peak / perfect levels, so if you focus you can gain the perfect reflexes to accomplish these feats. This is how Marvel or DC imagined their peak humans. Sorry, i totally forgot the distance and the smoke bombs. Well, i concede on this. With this equipment, Batman should be able to close, the distance, but it's highly doubtful that cap will beat cap by just sneaking up on him.

I never said that cap hurts Pete on the same level that Venom can hurt him. Neither i said that cap hurts Hulk on the same level that the thing can hurt him. But he does hurt him. Cap knowing Hulk's anatomy is as questionable as if Hulk's anatomy is different than a normal human. And cap studying him is a lot more possible than Hulk's weak spots being different. Cap has faced hulk more than once, logically he should study him in case that he might fight him again. Cap has even tried to study spidey, i don't see why he shouldn't study Hulk. Also, cap's strength being close to super human is enough to land the perfect hit effectively enough. We are talking about a weapon that is as hard as adamantium being landed on the weak spot from someone who has super human or close to that, strength.

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 21:34:28 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

It's not completely unrealistically. You train your mind to think fast enough at peak / perfect levels, so if you focus you can gain the perfect reflexes to accomplish these feats. This is how Marvel or DC imagined their peak humans. Sorry, i totally forgot the distance and the smoke bombs. Well, i concede on this. With this equipment, Batman should be able to close, the distance, but it's highly doubtful that cap will beat cap by just sneaking up on him.

I never said that cap hurts Pete on the same level that Venom can hurt him. Neither i said that cap hurts Hulk on the same level that the thing can hurt him. But he does hurt him. Cap knowing Hulk's anatomy is as questionable as if Hulk's anatomy is different than a normal human. And cap studying him is a lot more possible than Hulk's weak spots being different. Cap has faced hulk more than once, logically he should study him in case that he might fight him again. Cap has even tried to study spidey, i don't see why he shouldn't study Hulk. Also, cap's strength being close to super human is enough to land the perfect hit effectively enough. We are talking about a weapon that is as hard as adamantium being landed on the weak spot from someone who has super human or close to that, strength.

It is unrealistic. Until people are actually able to dodge bullets, there is nothing to suggest there is any realism involved in it.

Fair enough.

Alright. I apologize then.

Even if Cap knows weak points in Hulk's physicality, how do we even know he used that type of strike on him anyway? Was it is suggested in the comic that he actually attacked Hulk in a vulnerable point?

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 21:52:58 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 21:34:28 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

It's not completely unrealistically. You train your mind to think fast enough at peak / perfect levels, so if you focus you can gain the perfect reflexes to accomplish these feats. This is how Marvel or DC imagined their peak humans. Sorry, i totally forgot the distance and the smoke bombs. Well, i concede on this. With this equipment, Batman should be able to close, the distance, but it's highly doubtful that cap will beat cap by just sneaking up on him.

I never said that cap hurts Pete on the same level that Venom can hurt him. Neither i said that cap hurts Hulk on the same level that the thing can hurt him. But he does hurt him. Cap knowing Hulk's anatomy is as questionable as if Hulk's anatomy is different than a normal human. And cap studying him is a lot more possible than Hulk's weak spots being different. Cap has faced hulk more than once, logically he should study him in case that he might fight him again. Cap has even tried to study spidey, i don't see why he shouldn't study Hulk. Also, cap's strength being close to super human is enough to land the perfect hit effectively enough. We are talking about a weapon that is as hard as adamantium being landed on the weak spot from someone who has super human or close to that, strength.

It is unrealistic. Until people are actually able to dodge bullets, there is nothing to suggest there is any realism involved in it.

Fair enough.

Alright. I apologize then.

Even if Cap knows weak points in Hulk's physicality, how do we even know he used that type of strike on him anyway? Was it is suggested in the comic that he actually attacked Hulk in a vulnerable point?

Getting hit by gamma radiation and turn to a green monster when you are pissed or being bitten by a radioactive spider and get spider powers, it's not realism either. It's a comic and they try to make exaggerated things, that does not make them PIS, because we can't know if it's PIS. But if they do things well above from what they show or above from what their superior opponents shows, then it's PIS.
It's ok.
I think the art helps
www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/cap/108-406425/capture05_6/105-1391001/.
I'm not the best when it comes to anatomy neither when it comes to weak spots, but i think i have seen a vid about pressure points, weak spots and i think a weak spot similar to where cap has hit hulk, has been shown. Also, this is the only logical explanation on why cap has done this.
=]

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 22:06:52 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Getting hit by gamma radiation and turn to a green monster when you are pissed or being bitten by a radioactive spider and get spider powers, it's not realism either. It's a comic and they try to make exaggerated things, that does not make them PIS, because we can't know if it's PIS. But if they do things well above from what they show or above from what their superior opponents shows, then it's PIS.
It's ok.
I think the art helps
www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/cap/108-406425/capture05_6/105-1391001/.
I'm not the best when it comes to anatomy neither when it comes to weak spots, but i think i have seen a vid about pressure points, weak spots and i think a weak spot similar to where cap has hit hulk, has been shown. Also, this is the only logical explanation on why cap has done this.
=]

Exactly. Thank you. That was my point. Comic characters do things that are unsupported by logic, physics, etc. They do unrealistic things. BatMan disappearing in front of people is unrealistic also, but he still does it. And it is consistent. Now we can agree to disagree about him disappearing in front of Steve if you want, but he can disappear in front of people, nonetheless. Also, as we already agreed, it really is irrelevant anyway because of the conditions of the battle.

Based on the scan, Cap just seems to be hitting Hulk in the face with his shield. No indication of striking a vulnerable point in his body is shown, the discussion about whether Cap knows Hulk's weak points notwithstanding.

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 22:12:00 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 22:06:52 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Getting hit by gamma radiation and turn to a green monster when you are pissed or being bitten by a radioactive spider and get spider powers, it's not realism either. It's a comic and they try to make exaggerated things, that does not make them PIS, because we can't know if it's PIS. But if they do things well above from what they show or above from what their superior opponents shows, then it's PIS.
It's ok.
I think the art helps
www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/cap/108-406425/capture05_6/105-1391001/.
I'm not the best when it comes to anatomy neither when it comes to weak spots, but i think i have seen a vid about pressure points, weak spots and i think a weak spot similar to where cap has hit hulk, has been shown. Also, this is the only logical explanation on why cap has done this.
=]

Exactly. Thank you. That was my point. Comic characters do things that are unsupported by logic, physics, etc. They do unrealistic things. BatMan disappearing in front of people is unrealistic also, but he still does it. And it is consistent. Now we can agree to disagree about him disappearing in front of Steve if you want, but he can disappear in front of people, nonetheless. Also, as we already agreed, it really is irrelevant anyway because of the conditions of the battle.

Based on the scan, Cap just seems to be hitting Hulk in the face with his shield. No indication of striking a vulnerable point in his body is shown, the discussion about whether Cap knows Hulk's weak points notwithstanding.

I'm not denying batman's stealth skills. I'm pretty sure he can be vanished in front of super humans but not in the way he has done this. I mean he has been vanished in front of a bullet timer without being aware of it. I can imagine cap being able to use stealth on cap but not without cap being able to realize anything while bats is moving. Do you agree with that?
Anyway, as you said it's irrelevant here.
Seeing the position of Hulk's face i can imagine that it was a hit on the jaw or something close to it. As far as i know, this kind of attack is very painful and effective.
=]

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 22:18:48 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

I'm not denying batman's stealth skills. I'm pretty sure he can be vanished in front of super humans but not in the way he has done this. I mean he has been vanished in front of a bullet timer without being aware of it. I can imagine cap being able to use stealth on cap but not without cap being able to realize anything while bats is moving. Do you agree with that?
Anyway, as you said it's irrelevant here.
Seeing the position of Hulk's face i can imagine that it was a hit on the jaw or something close to it. As far as i know, this kind of attack is very painful and effective.
=]

Alright. It is irrelevant to the point. Glad to see we came to a conclusion on that.

I still have a hard time seeing an attack to the jaw with Cap's strength level as being able to hurt Hulk. I honestly am trying to rationalize with you, but I'm just not seeing it. It still makes no sense to me. Like we pointed out, he never even seemed to strike Hulk in a nerve ending, a pressure point, a joint, etc. He just seems to hit Hulk in the face with his shield.

[spidey_17]

Glad that we agree

As you know, Hulk's strength is super human or close to it. A combination of his skill( hit on the jaw ) and his powerful shield ( as hard as adamantium ) it should be able to hurt the Hulk.
But even if it can't, obviously it's hard enough to cause great damage on Bruce and put him down with very few strikes. But if you disagree with that, i think we have to agree to disagree. Just like you don't see cap being able to hurt Hulk, i can not see why he shouldn't be able to.
=]

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 22:36:10 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Glad that we agree

As you know, Hulk's strength is super human or close to it. A combination of his skill( hit on the jaw ) and his powerful shield ( as hard as adamantium ) it should be able to hurt the Hulk.
But even if it can't, obviously it's hard enough to cause great damage on Bruce and put him down with very few strikes. But if you disagree with that, i think we have to agree to disagree. Just like you don't see cap being able to hurt Hulk, i can not see why he shouldn't be able to.
=]

A few decent hits, maybe. Understand though, I in no way meant to say that Cap would be incapable of defeating BatMan. I very well think he could, but I think BatMan could defeat Steve also. This could could go either way, in my opinion.

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 22:59:54 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 22:36:10 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Glad that we agree

As you know, Hulk's strength is super human or close to it. A combination of his skill( hit on the jaw ) and his powerful shield ( as hard as adamantium ) it should be able to hurt the Hulk.
But even if it can't, obviously it's hard enough to cause great damage on Bruce and put him down with very few strikes. But if you disagree with that, i think we have to agree to disagree. Just like you don't see cap being able to hurt Hulk, i can not see why he shouldn't be able to.
=]

A few decent hits, maybe. Understand though, I in no way meant to say that Cap would be incapable of defeating BatMan. I very well think he could, but I think BatMan could defeat Steve also. This could could go either way, in my opinion.

]

Of course it can go either way, i never said otherwise. This is one of the most event fights. I just gave to cap a slight majority.
=]

[Silver]

Oct 23, 2010 23:02:11 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Of course it can go either way, i never said otherwise. This is one of the most event fights. I just gave to cap a slight majority.
=]

I would say 50/50, split, either way, but there is nothing wrong with that. We can agree to disagree. Not like a slight majority is that much of a disagreement anyway.

[spidey_17]

Oct 23, 2010 23:05:26 GMT -5 Silver said:

Oct 23, 2010 23:02:11 GMT -5 spidey_17 said:

Of course it can go either way, i never said otherwise. This is one of the most event fights. I just gave to cap a slight majority.
=]

I would say 50/50, split, either way, but there is nothing wrong with that. We can agree to disagree. Not like a slight majority is that much of a disagreement anyway.

Of course. There is a possibility of 50/50. I just think that if cap lands a few shield dashes, it's more likely for him to get an extra win.
Glad that we reach to an agreement.

[lagoon_boy]

Is this were you post?

[lagoon_boy]

...How do you change your Avatar, help a computer retard here.

[Decoy Elite]

Oct 23, 2010 23:28:18 GMT -5 lagoon_boy said:

...How do you change your Avatar, help a computer retard here.

You copy paste an image URL and then set the size as 100 by 100.

[lagoon_boy]

Seripis;y. I need help!

[Decoy Elite]

Oct 23, 2010 23:32:19 GMT -5 lagoon_boy said:

Seripis;y. I need help!

Seriously, you don't get PMs when someone replys to you. Look above your post.