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Post by Strafe Prower on Jul 8, 2011 2:40:37 GMT -5
That and this is not even a complete reboot. Only certain characters are being rewritten. Everyone's favorite seems to be going relatively untouched. Thats not quite true for me. Harley, Katana, and a few others are completely different in look and could be in perosnality as well. The rest of mine (Save Catwoman) have yet to be seen  |
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Jul 8, 2011 5:33:33 GMT -5
Or maybe DC will turn into an even bigger comic book juggernaut. It is DC's chance to become a "juggernaught" if done well. DC might be big in the US (and even here down under and in Uk and Canada) but it really misses out on some majorly large markets. Whenever I travel Asia it absolutely shits me that all I can get of DC is trades ( maybe a single rack in a comic store- while Marvel can have a couple of aisles or manga several more - most independents have as much space as DC) If its going to work for them they have to make sure the characters (if not the entire back stories) are close to what potential new customers might experience in other more digital media. That's why Manga is doing so well (and Marvel) they have animation, games, and for Marvel live action introducing their characters to a completely new market. When those new exposies decide I like this character and pick up a comic it needs to feel like the same character to keep them, if it doesn't you've missed the opportunity. Similarly if the digital version is too far from the one loved by the fanbase (like say the crap Superman returns) there ends up with a lot of bad word of mouth slowing tickets. That's why I assumed that te inclusion of Cyborg in JLA (alone with Ollie's more corporate connections) meant a shift toward "Smalleville" versions (which might mean the sectet JSA of the 60's like the show later on) Obviosly the " I Vampire" and middle age/ JL Dark is to trade in on the recent movie and TV successes of the genre Now if I just knew there was a plan for any of Dr Fate. Specter, Phantom Stranger, he'll even Arion ( and yeah Alan Scot )I'd be stoked |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 8, 2011 13:27:56 GMT -5
I doubt many DC veterans are actually going to quit reading their comics over this. Well I did. There is such a thing as waving your dick in the face of your fans. Marvel and DC did it too many times. |
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Jul 8, 2011 19:59:06 GMT -5
I doubt many DC veterans are actually going to quit reading their comics over this. Well I did. There is such a thing as waving your dick in the face of your fans. Marvel and DC did it too many times. Sad part is the fans are so used to it |
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 8, 2011 23:03:42 GMT -5
What is this dick waving you speak of?
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jul 9, 2011 4:29:55 GMT -5
Well I did. There is such a thing as waving your dick in the face of your fans. Marvel and DC did it too many times. Yeah, but you don't count.  ;D Seriously though, you're not the only one. Silver is quitting as well, I believe. But my point is that is still a very small part of DC's reading population. Most are just gonna keep going like it is. And if this pulls in enough fresh blood, it's not going to matter, really. |
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Jul 9, 2011 7:28:55 GMT -5
Yeah unfortunately the majority will stick it out even if they dislike a lot of the change or return.
I'm a perfect example of how much a fan will take.
In the late 80's DC systematically destroyed many of my favorite characters (post COIE). with things like "last days of the JSA". their treatment of Infinity Inc, The poor replacement of ASS with YAS (which was so obvious Roy Thomas didn't have his heart in), the loss of Arion, The new Flash (wally) only a sonic speedster and his character set back 10 to 15 years (pre Wolfman), the "joke" JLA/I, the incorporation of the house of weirdness into Blue Devil (just making it stupid), changes to Firestorm changing the character repeatedly and more.
With all those changes I hated there were as many I loved that drew me in some where else. Hex now a post apocalyptic biker gunman in the 21st century, Question, some of the titles out of Legends like Suicide Squad (not JL), Grell's GA, Blue Beetle, the new Dr Fate (OK I took SOME warming too), Booster Gold, Captain Atom, Manhunter (Mark Shaw) and STARMAN ( Will Peyton), Vigilante (Adrian Chase), Doom Patrol (year I was one of the few who like DP with Arani and Joshua Clay), L.E.G.I.O.N.
In the early 90's many of the new things I liked about the end of the last decade were going or gone, little to none of my old fav's returned and fewer things coming out were covering the shortfall. But I tried out and got into some of those replacements all the same like Fate (Jared Stephens), Argus, Starman (Jack). It wasn't until a little after Zero Hour I finally got the S$%ts and stopped buying DC (after they'd let all the good changes i liked die or be replaced and brought back none of those I didn't) and still I came back.
Some of us old fart fans just like are characters more than we respect ourselves I suppose.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 9, 2011 9:11:45 GMT -5
In the 80s, I did not like DC. It did not have enough Wolverine back then.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 9, 2011 15:25:45 GMT -5
What is this dick waving you speak of? writing decisions, editorial changes and plots that are just fucking insulting to my intelligence and the world of fans.  |
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Lance
Team Buster Ledger
It's never Lupus
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Post by Lance on Jul 9, 2011 17:33:32 GMT -5
The Hipster Crom strikes. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 9, 2011 17:39:22 GMT -5
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 9, 2011 18:45:29 GMT -5
What is this dick waving you speak of? writing decisions, editorial changes and plots that are just fucking insulting to my intelligence and the world of fans. Poor writing decisions are not dick waiving. I am sure these things were done with the intention of making money, not losing it. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 9, 2011 18:49:58 GMT -5
Poor writing decisions are not dick waiving. I am sure these things were done with the intention of making money, not losing it. Quesada has openly admitted to OMD being done solely because of his own hate for married Peter and has stated as much that people disagreeing with his view are morons and he doesn't care what they think. Same thing with some of the worst pieces of writing in DC where writers wrote stuff so mind numbmingly bad just because they hate things fans loved. it's fucking insulting, and dick waving in my book. They abuse their power regardless of the fans just because their personal likes are different. |
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 9, 2011 18:55:26 GMT -5
Poor writing decisions are not dick waiving. I am sure these things were done with the intention of making money, not losing it. Quesada has openly admitted to OMD being done solely because of his own hate for married Peter and has stated as much that people disagreeing with his view are morons and he doesn't care what they think. Same thing with some of the worst pieces of writing in DC where writers wrote stuff so mind numbmingly bad just because they hate things fans loved. it's fucking insulting, and dick waving in my book. They abuse their power regardless of the fans just because their personal likes are different. You say that as if you would act differently with characters you liked and were also given an opportunity to write for. I am sure you would write what you liked, not what fanboys liked. Also, Quesada did not say that he did it because fuck the readers. He said that he did it and those that liked the marriage were wrong. I do not even know if OMD slammed the majority of readers. Especially when the issues since have been outselling the previous issues. It is one of Marvel's strongest titles. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 9, 2011 19:06:54 GMT -5
You say that as if you would act differently with characters you liked and were also given an opportunity to write for. I am sure you would write what you liked, not what fanboys liked. Wrong. I would never make blatant changes to existing characters beloved by their readers just because I dislike some aspect of them. It's disrespectful to them and disrespectful to writers that came before me. So no I would never do what you suggest here so crudely and haphazardly. Any changes my writing might bring about would not be done just for my own satisfaction. Also, Quesada did not say that he did it because fuck the readers. He said that he did it and those that liked the marriage were wrong. A polite way to say "fuck them they're morons anyway, I hate this and can do whatever I want. Anyone who doesn't agree with me is an idiot" if you ask me. The vast majority of the fans liked the marriage and the fact that Peter actually went somewhere Quesada just gave them the middle finger. I do not even know if OMD slammed the majority of readers. Especially when the issues since have been outselling the previous issues. It is one of Marvel's strongest titles. start looking up online. All but a minuscule number of readers were completely disgusted by OMD. The Fan rage was epic. It's just that a lot of fans never drop titles no matter how much bad writing writers put in. Plus later writers actually making better stories despite the existence of one more day (ask Spidey_16 for examples) helped Marvel keep their readers, even if the fan hate of OMD is still present and nearly universal. |
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 9, 2011 19:17:32 GMT -5
Sorry but I do not believe you when you say you would willingly write something you hate. You trash months of work on your own pet project because one or more aspects no longer are to your satisfaction, essentially retconning your own fiction universe over and over again. Now based on that knowledge, you honestly expect me to believe you would write about a character you enjoy but would willingly subject yourself to writing parts of the character you thoroughly despise on a regular basis?
I think you would figure out a way to just get rid of that aspect you hate.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 9, 2011 19:18:49 GMT -5
Which is basically what most single character retcons are all about.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 9, 2011 19:54:51 GMT -5
Sorry but I do not believe you when you say you would willingly write something you hate. I wouldn't accept any project I don't like or join one I don't enjoy. If I work on something created by others I respect their work and the fans. That means together I'd never find myself in a situation where I would even need to write something I hate. All the while without retconning and insulting everyone else around me with my writing You trash months of work on your own pet project because one or more aspects no longer are to your satisfaction, essentially retconning your own fiction universe over and over again. . It's not reconning, not even close. Because nothing has actually been finalized yet, nothing has been published. It's creation until I produce a finished product, everything can be changed because I'm creating something I want to write from whole cloth. Not altering or continuing existing material created by others. Everything is my own creation. Whatever love and hate I acquire will be purely because of my own merit. I'll be free to write as I see fit without being weighted down by canon that came before me. It's not even remotely similar. If and when I make up for publishing I'll have full creative control over the world and will be the resource/arbiter/concept crafter of the story. Therefore as creator, I am the one who sets the standards and the context for all stories and characters. What fans and readers I may acquire then be based on if they like my writing and style or not. Without any restrictions imposed and needed because I must follow and stay in tune with material created by previous authors and loved by an already established fan base. Now based on that knowledge, you honestly expect me to believe you would write about a character you enjoy but would willingly subject yourself to writing parts of the character you thoroughly despise on a regular basis? No, I wouldn't but not in the manner you describe. I wouldn't write for most existing comic characters to begin with as continuation of previous writing, period. Even if I were offered the chance, because I write for my own pleasure and I realize I must respect the work and taste of others (despite my criticism of what a thing that is like). The only type of stories I'd even consider writing for existing characters would be either self-contained or not retcon anything just develop good things without changing anything that came before. Or elseworlds. That's even if I'd consider it. I'd likely decline, I much prefer creating everything I write full cloth and have thus perfect creative control without any weight from what came before me. I think you would figure out a way to just get rid of that aspect you hate. No, I would just never place myself in a position where I'd have to get rid of established material created by writers before me to have fun writing something. If I did otherwise that would mean writing for an existing character whom carries restrictions involving having to write stories and use elements and restrictions I don't like. Then there is no point in my even agreeing to such a project because it completely takes away the point why I write, because I enjoy it. |
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 9, 2011 21:21:11 GMT -5
Since you selectively broke up my post, your first point incorrectly addressed part of a whole. Sure I said I do not believe you would write something you hate but that is only part of it. Assume you love writing a character but hate a specific portion of him. Hate it so much that it nearly makes the part you love not worth it. Say you also talk to fans and at least a significant portion, it not at least half, also hate this portion you hate.
Semantics. The fact that it is not published yet is irrelevant. The point still stands. If you are willing to trash months of your own blood and sweat, I am sure you would wiggle in a way to not write about something you find to be utter bullshit on a monthly basis.
And you think that just because you created a character, you are the one that gets to do whatever the fuck you want with it? According to your logic on published writers printings, that is ludicrous. Writers and you have an obligation to your readers to publish what the fans want, not what you want.
Ooooookay. So if all writers only should write things they enjoy writing through and through, we will never have continuing works beyond any creator's run. The market would be flooded with independent one shots and minis. All comic writers use creative writing and put their own personal spin on things. What you call dick waiving, I call a company (which owns the character) using its many resources to produce stories for said character. Stan Lee cannot and would not want to write Spider-Man his whole life. In fact, most of his stories are silly by today's standards. You would have writers remain true to Stan Lee Spider-Man through and through? That would make for some pretty crappy comics. Oh and if anything, OMD reverted Spider-Man back to his Stan Lee days more or less anyway. Stan Lee never wrote Spider-Man's wedding in the first place, Jim Shooter and David Michelinie did. They should be fired for such dick waving.
Not only that but if you got your way, you would probably just bitch about how no one tries to think outside the box about characters, explore them or try to develop them in any way if everyone just mindlessly hacked other people's writing to satisfy your opinion on creative (or lack thereof) direction. Being cynical on literally everything can backfire sir Crom.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 9, 2011 21:42:48 GMT -5
Since you selectively broke up my post, your first point incorrectly addressed part of a whole. Sure I said I do not believe you would write something you hate but that is only part of it. Assume you love writing a character but hate a specific portion of him. Hate it so much that it nearly makes the part you love not worth it. Say you also talk to fans and at least a significant portion, it not at least half, also hate this portion you hate. Then as I have stated above, that would mean writing something I would not enjoy thus there would be no point to writing that, hence I wouldn't even try. Exactly like I've said in my previous post. I never write stories I won't enjoy. Semantics. The fact that it is not published yet is irrelevant. The point still stands. If you are willing to trash months of your own blood and sweat, No it's not, the trashing rewriting and blood and toil I enjoy. And I'm not changing something that's already created either. I enjoy the work into creating I am sure you would wiggle in a way to not write about something you find to be utter bullshit on a monthly basis. I'd never even consider undertaking a project that requires me to write something I consider bullshit to begin with, thus I won't ever need to try and wiggle myself out of such a situation. And you think that just because you created a character, you are the one that gets to do whatever the fuck you want with it? According to your logic on published writers printings, that is ludicrous No it's not, I only write things I like and then if I publish or show them and people like them I'll keep writing them as I think they should be written for me to enjoy writing them. If others like it good, if not too bad. It's my creation whatever happens to it and however it goes. I'm not destroying the work of others or doing anything other putting to ink what I like and see. It's a world of difference then expanding and changing beloved work created by someone else with years of built up canon and expectations. In such a case, it's a duty of the writer to respect what had come before. While when it's my own creation I set the standard, lay the groundwork and create the canon. Therefore I don't have any burden of respecting previous work. Only write as best I can and hope others like it. Ooooookay. So if all writers only should write things they enjoy writing through and through, we will never have continuing works beyond any creator's run. The market would be flooded with independent one shots and minis. Which is exactly how European comics and Novels are done. They are self contained, often have a definite planned beginning and end. And the creators are the only ones writing it, or people the creator approves of. Makes for consistent stories, avoids character and world derailing and it leaves you with a quality finished work Only super-hero comics do otherwise, with the predictable problems that brings. It is best for the story to simply end and for the reader to move to a new world of characters then for a series to keep running forever with sub-par writing ruining the original work. What you call dick waiving, I call a company (which owns the character) using its many resources to produce stories for said character. see above on novels and european comics. There is a need for an end to a story, in my opinion. And nothing sad about it. Not only that but you got your way, you would probably just bitch about how no one tries to think outside the box about characters, If I had my way, more and more efforts would go to creating entirely new worlds and stories with, self-contained and an end if necessary, ongoing only with very close examination on who should be allowed to. If that means a character doesn't get new stories because nobody is up to the task, so be it. We had a good story with a beginning and end. Let's appreciate that a move to other things, we can always read the story again when we want. Being cynical on literally everything can backfire sir Crom. Never happened before in my life. |
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