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Post by Admin on Jul 12, 2011 8:52:53 GMT -5
I'm aware. The point was to clarify that neither has the advantage in that department.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 12, 2011 8:58:53 GMT -5
Marvel keeps chanting that Cap is at the peak condition a human being could possibly achieve, but not above it, while Deathstroke is flat out meta in strength.
But, practically, there's no difference. If anything, Cap has better strength feats than Slade.
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Post by Admin on Jul 12, 2011 9:00:18 GMT -5
Marvel keeps chanting that Cap is at the peak condition a human being could possibly achieve, but not above it, while Deathstroke is flat out meta in strength.
But, practically, there's no difference. If anything, Cap has better strength feats than Slade. Then they shouldn't have him go and bench press 1,100 lbs or whatever the absurd amount is, LOL.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 12, 2011 9:01:54 GMT -5
Or, they could just change their handbook entries, haha.
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Post by Admin on Jul 12, 2011 9:05:24 GMT -5
But then they'd be accurate. We can't have that.
BOW BEFORE ZARAN!
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 12, 2011 9:08:25 GMT -5
Well, Moon Knight did. And you can't pin it on Bendis, either.
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Post by Admin on Jul 12, 2011 9:10:07 GMT -5
Didn't he also lose to a group of thugs in that series?
Yargh.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 12, 2011 9:16:41 GMT -5
Yeah, he did. Chuck Dixon isn't a MK fan, apparently.
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Accord_Royal1738
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Post by Accord_Royal1738 on Jul 12, 2011 11:59:14 GMT -5
I think both are about even physically, but I gave Cap the nod because of his intangibles. Slade may have the slight edge as far as speed goes, but Cap is definitely the more skilled of the two. Static made a great point back on CV a year ago that Cap is able to use his skill to beat up on near-superhuman opposition (i.e. Wolverine) in consistent showings. Slade beats up on peak human opposition in consistent showings. Everyone does that,i've seen Catman beat meta humans.Steve has not defeated Wolverine IIRC.He's beaten Daredevil(and lost too i might add),Crossbones(after tough bouts) etc.But i have yet to see him do something skillwise which Slade can't do.Also Static also used to put a lot of emphasis on the handbooks back then and IIRC Cap was 7 at that time.Now he's been demoted. Cap has beaten Wolverine before......
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 12, 2011 12:13:02 GMT -5
Issue #?
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jul 12, 2011 12:20:21 GMT -5
If you are talking about EOTS, that was not even a fight. Logan has gone through hell and just before cap attacked him, he has been blasted by cyke's eye beam. That explains how cap even manage to sneak up on Logan. In their other fights, Logan had the chance to kill him twice.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 12, 2011 12:23:44 GMT -5
Cap has indeed beaten Wolverine once to my knowledge. Problem is, in the fight I speak of (flashback during Origins), Logan allowed him to win. It was pretty clear.
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spidey_17
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Post by spidey_17 on Jul 12, 2011 12:26:51 GMT -5
I don't remember reading that, but i think i have seen scans of it. I don't remember if Logan even tried to fight back...
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Accord_Royal1738
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Post by Accord_Royal1738 on Jul 12, 2011 12:35:13 GMT -5
Cap has indeed beaten Wolverine once to my knowledge. Problem is, in the fight I speak of (flashback during Origins), Logan allowed him to win. It was pretty clear. That's the fight I was referring to. Erik and I have debated this before, and that still doesn't seem logical to me. Let him win? So he was willing to let Cap crush the tendons in his forearms just for the hell of it? Not buying it.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 12, 2011 12:36:32 GMT -5
Yeah, Logan pretty much let Steve trash him to no end.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 12, 2011 12:38:33 GMT -5
Cap has indeed beaten Wolverine once to my knowledge. Problem is, in the fight I speak of (flashback during Origins), Logan allowed him to win. It was pretty clear. That's the fight I was referring to. Erik and I have debated this before, and that still doesn't seem logical to me. Let him win? So he was willing to let Cap crush the tendons in his forearms just for the hell of it? Not buying it. You sure you've seen the whole thing? Because if anything, Logan was near the win in that one, until the X-Men arrived.
I'm talking for a WWII flashback, not that fight, though. I agree that one was straight up.
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Accord_Royal1738
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Post by Accord_Royal1738 on Jul 12, 2011 13:16:31 GMT -5
I'm talking about Wolverine: Origins #4. The one where Cap split Wolverine's chest muscles and clearly had the upper hand up until Nuke preoccupied him and Logan gained momentum. Cyclops and Emma Frost intervene right after.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 12, 2011 13:25:38 GMT -5
Cap didn't have "clearly" the upper hand in anything, and Nuke attacked him while him and Logan were talking, not fighting. Also, in the actual fight, both were injured, with the difference being that Logan would inevitably heal, while Cap would pass out due to the blood clot (and he did, in the following issue, in which it was evident that had the battle went on, his efficiency would have been drastically limited), and Cap had to conjure the muramasa blade in order to force Wolverine to hear him out. So, yeah, big win for Cap by passing out, bringing up a mystical sword that is pretty much the only thing that guarantees a win against Wolverine when he saw he couldn't beat him otherwise, and having Cyclops, Emma Frost, and Hellion save him twice before Logan cut him to pieces.
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Accord_Royal1738
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Post by Accord_Royal1738 on Jul 12, 2011 14:08:40 GMT -5
They were talking when Nuke suddenly lunged at Cap's leg. Logan then attempted to finish Cap off while Nuke was preoccupying him. Cap slashes Logan's upper chest and temporarily incapacitates him. Cap then redirects his attention to Nuke, before Logan once cheap shots him and prepares for an imminent finish right before the X-Men arrive.
So I do believe that Cap clearly had the upper-hand in that fight, seeing as how the only way Logan managed to put him on the ropes was by attacking him with his back turned. Twice.
As for the muramasa blade, I don't blame Cap at all for using it. He realized that his life was being threatened (Logan even stated on panel that he had decided to go for the kill), so why not counter with an equally efficient lethal weapon in his favor?
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 12, 2011 14:31:31 GMT -5
No, Logan rushed to disarm Cap from the blade, not finish him off or injure him. You can see he doesn't even extract his claws.
You can't have the "clear" upper hand with an equal amount of hits and both combatants clearly injured before one of them uses an outside the box wild card to make the other listen to reason (since Wolverine willingly listened to Cap afterwards, it's not like Cap even used the blade to "beat" Wolverine).
Also, you're acting as if Cap didn't try to cheap-shoot Wolverine with the blade (but Logan dodged) while Wolverine was explaining what he did to his leg, or that Cap didn't attack him with the shield (which led to the move that disabled Logan's claws) while Wolverine was explaining himself. Cap is as much guilty of playing dirty as Logan is.
And Wolverine only attacked Cap with a view to killing him by giving in to his berserker rage after he tried to take the blade away from Cap from behind, and Cap slashed him across the chest. You can see his eyes turning red.
"Blaming him", or not, is irrelevant to the point. The muramasa blade is not in Captain America's regular equipment, and in a fight that would have had the exact same development as the one in Origins but no mystical blade randomly laying around, Cap would have gone down due to the blood clot while Wolverine would be walking away the victor.
Post the panel where Logan says he's going for the kill before Cap starts using the blade, if you please. Because Wolverine only tries to kill Cap after Cap slashes him with the muramasa blade. Wolverine simply says Cap's wound will inevitably kill him if he keeps it up.
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