Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jul 29, 2011 14:46:55 GMT -5
I don't think we can say that his optic blasts aren't light speed because of how often they are dodged.I think we should all be well aware by now that comic writers are completely incapable of showing speed consistently.Not just with the speed of objects,energy beams etc. but also the speed of characters themselves.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 14:51:10 GMT -5
The worst part is that it looks like just a normal katana (or possibly the Muramasa blade). But neither a standard katana nor the Muramasa blade have any extreme levels of durability. So basically that scan shows one of Cyke's blasts being stopped dead by a thin piece of steel. It's indeed the muramasa blade, but I'm not sure how you deduced it doesn't have extreme levels of durability. Magic is the only thing that has broken the sword thus far, all the while it has repeatedly managed to stand up to Marvel's most durable substance, adamantium.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jul 29, 2011 14:53:31 GMT -5
You'd have a point Vance, but we're not here to prove a negative. Remember, this is a thread for establishing irrefutable feats. if they are to be this, they must be established rigorously and with as little doubt as possible. Arguing that they could be lightspeed because the writers don't know what they're doing (and I'm not saying they do, they're rather terrible by now) is not an irrefutable argument. It's an appeal to ignorance.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jul 29, 2011 14:57:28 GMT -5
You'd have a point Vance, but we're not here to prove a negative. Remember, this is a thread for establishing irrefutable feats. if they are to be this, they must be established rigorously and with as little doubt as possible. Arguing that they could be lightspeed because the writers don't know what they're doing (and I'm not saying they do, they're rather terrible by now) is not an irrefutable argument. It's an appeal to ignorance. Aren't there several scans that specifically state Cyclops beams move at lightspeed? That right there is irrefutable.If the only argument is "they can't be lightspeed because they've been dodged by____,____,and _____ then that is simply a flaw of comic writing and not necessarily proof that those beams don't move at light speed.If Marvel states a CHARACTER moves at light speed and shows that, everyone will assume that they actually move that fast and take any showings against that as PIS.So the same should be applied to Cyclops' optic blasts.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 15:01:09 GMT -5
Marvel hasn't tried to officially substantiate the feat by mentioning the speed of the beams in recent memory, though. They could have easily pointed out in one of Cyke's handbook entries just how fast it is.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jul 29, 2011 15:10:50 GMT -5
Marvel hasn't tried to officially substantiate the feat by mentioning the speed of the beams in recent memory, though. They could have easily pointed out in one of Cyke's handbook entries just how fast it is. Handbook entries (especially as of late) don't state how fast characters are as far as flight and running speed either.They just give you that vague rating with huge gaps in between classifications.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 15:17:28 GMT -5
Marvel hasn't tried to officially substantiate the feat by mentioning the speed of the beams in recent memory, though. They could have easily pointed out in one of Cyke's handbook entries just how fast it is. Handbook entries (especially as of late) don't state how fast characters are as far as flight and running speed either.They just give you that vague rating with huge gaps in between classifications. They usually go as far as to state a limit. Photon, Genis-Vell, or Silver Surfer all have a lightspeed+ statement to accompany their class 7 ranking in that aspect. Street level characters rarely do, but whether Cap can run 60 mph or more isn't nearly as important as a guy blasting things at lightspeed. Not saying the beams are not lightspeed simply because Marvel hasn't stated it in a handbook, just saying that if it was obvious, they could have easily done so.
Even better, if there were recent examples of it being explicitly stated, I doubt anyone would bother refuting it (that's my biggest beef with it). Two of the scans provided originate from 30 years ago, and the third is from an X-Man issue in which Nate was in an another dimension, therefore, as per thread rules, it's an alternate version of Cyclops that cannot be used (that, and Terry Cavanagh is a hack).
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Post by ckal on Jul 29, 2011 15:53:18 GMT -5
This is a simple topic that some of you are making more complicated than it should be. All it comes down to is once the beam is out of the visor, what is the speed? Not how fast Cyclops can aim, how fast the servos open, and how well someone can anticipate Cyclops' aim. Dane's scan perfectly proves this point, and that is a recent scan. Speed of light (referring to his beams), speed of visor, slower. This, among other things, gives characters who are very fast in their own right, a lot of time to anticipate where the blast will be and allow them to dodge it. The only two scans I have seen so far to defy this are to do with Wolverine, and that says something in itself anyways. In the scans provided, his optic beams have been specifically stated on multiple occasions that they move at the speed of light. How it is portrayed in art can always be not accurate, but this is enough evidence right there for it to be fact. Also I find the "dodge his face" theory to be quite a stretch because it all it takes as but a ridiculously small correction on Cyclops's part to put you back in his sights and blast you to Pluto. Imagine you're holding a gun and trying to shoot Batgirl or someone at a distance of ten meters (Or, if you have a gun, just imagine someone next to you is Batgirl). She'll see your gun, analyze where it's pointing at and keep herself out of the gun's firing line. Is she ever going to move out of your sight? I doubt it. Dancing in front of someone's face should not be possible. Also, I can't help but notice that half of scans are quite retarded and ignore basic and intuitive beams laws. Deflecting a beam with a blade swipe? God damn it, writers. As far as I know, it's not about him moving his eyes, he has to move his entire head to aim. That is much different. Also, when you take into account the movement speed and agility etc. of a character like Cassandra, it makes sense that someone would have a lot of trouble aiming at them and keeping up.
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Killshot Caine
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You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jul 29, 2011 15:54:01 GMT -5
LMFAO @ Terry Cavanaugh...
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Post by Admin on Jul 29, 2011 15:55:04 GMT -5
If all it takes to prove something is a few stated examples, I want the next discussion to be "Are Shocker's blasts electric based?" Because off the top of my head, at least three writers have implied such, lol. As others have already stated, it needs to be clear without a doubt that the theory at hand is indeed fact. In this case, there's a lot of evidence (through out history) which make the claim questionable, despite 4 examples supporting it.
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Post by ckal on Jul 29, 2011 16:04:37 GMT -5
First of all, its not going on three writers just saying something, it also depends on if there has been statements specifically stating otherwise. Which, nobody here has been able to provide. The only evidence I have seen for the contrary is involving Wolverine. Do you have anything that proves his beams have been dodged after being fired, or stating specifically that they do not move at light speed?
I'm guessing with Shocker, many writers have stated they are not electrical based, so that obviously would not be fact. You're taking two opposites here and trying to make them the same thing.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jul 29, 2011 16:05:21 GMT -5
If all it takes to prove something is a few stated examples, I want the next discussion to be "Are Shocker's blasts electric based?" Because off the top of my head, at least three writers have implied such, lol. As others have already stated, it needs to be clear without a doubt that the theory at hand is indeed fact. In this case, there's a lot of evidence (through out history) which make the claim questionable, despite 4 examples supporting it. Surely you can see a difference between something that is stated and never refuted rather than something stated that is factually false and proven to be false.
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Post by Admin on Jul 29, 2011 16:12:24 GMT -5
The point is to make sure the theory is 100% (without ANY doubt) fact. That's NOT the case with Cyclops if people since day one have been able to dance around his beams. And that is the point of having this discussion continue instead of trying to move on.
The Shocker example was obviously a far-fetched example. I'm SHOCKED you guys even need to remark on that.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 16:15:25 GMT -5
?and that is a recent scan. Speed of light (referring to his beams), speed of visor, slower. Sorry, but, no, speed of light part actually refers to Northstar and Aurora's (you know, the speedsters in question) speed in comparison to the visor, not the speed of the beam.And I've only seen two scans saying it's lightspeed from 30 years ago, and that says something in itself, too.
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Killshot Caine
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You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jul 29, 2011 16:17:33 GMT -5
The point is to make sure the theory is 100% (without ANY doubt) fact. That's NOT the case with Cyclops if people since day one have been able to dance around his beams. And that is the point of having this discussion continue instead of trying to move on. The Shocker example was obviously a far-fetched example. I'm SHOCKED you guys even need to remark on that. I understand that.I'm just saying that there was a claim made about his optic blasts that have NEVER been refuted.It's only being shot down because of how long ago it was made not because there is evidence to the contrary.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jul 29, 2011 16:22:18 GMT -5
I nominate Matt Fraction for shitty writing.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 16:24:50 GMT -5
Then you got to nominate the dude who had Storm dodge multiple blasts from Cyke in a distance of 10 feet. Bullseye at least has the reaction feats to back it up.
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Post by ckal on Jul 29, 2011 16:25:41 GMT -5
The point is to make sure the theory is 100% (without ANY doubt) fact. That's NOT the case with Cyclops if people since day one have been able to dance around his beams. And that is the point of having this discussion continue instead of trying to move on. Almost everything in comics is going to have a rebuttal or something that contradicts it because that's just the way it is. A lot of it comes down to writers. Some don't do their homework and, aren't knowledgeable on the character, or just don't care and want to make up something new, you all know that. Sometimes people don't always get it right. Many many factors go into deciding what is actually correct, and that is the purpose of this thread. Never quite know for sure with you crazykatz.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jul 29, 2011 16:26:30 GMT -5
Then you got to nominate the dude who had Storm dodge multiple blasts from Cyke in a distance of 10 feet. Bullseye at least has the reaction feats to back it up. If Cyclops optic blasts were even gun speed Storm wouldn't be able to do that.I like how she's the most mediocre at everything and then all of a sudden against Cyclops she's Daredevil.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 16:27:59 GMT -5
Also, I'm a bit unclear on this part, but since K4tz and me are also judges for this feat (since erik proposed the notion) shouldn't we refrain from actively participating to this debate for the same reasons he normally would have?
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