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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 16:28:34 GMT -5
Then you got to nominate the dude who had Storm dodge multiple blasts from Cyke in a distance of 10 feet. Bullseye at least has the reaction feats to back it up. If Cyclops optic blasts were even gun speed Storm wouldn't be able to do that.I like how she's the most mediocre at everything and then all of a sudden against Cyclops she's Daredevil. LOL. Agreed.
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Post by ckal on Jul 29, 2011 16:29:13 GMT -5
morph- Once again, you're bringing up someone anticipating aim and having the reflexes to move out of sight of aim. We are focusing on how fast Cyclops' beams are once they have been projected from his visor/eyes, to the target.
Like VANCE said, there has been proof specifically stating that Cyclops' beams are at light speed. NO evidence has been provided to the contrary.
Well, aside from Wolverine. But that still doesn't state anything about his beam speed or that they are not light speed.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jul 29, 2011 16:29:16 GMT -5
As far as I know, it's not about him moving his eyes, he has to move his entire head to aim. That is much different. It's... really not. Tracking moving targets is natural to us, and if for some reason we can't move our eyes (Like a knight in armor, for example), the head can be accustomed to compensate in a short time. And it is unquestionably far easier and faster than aiming your gun around.
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Post by ckal on Jul 29, 2011 16:31:34 GMT -5
The speed and agility at which some street levelers (like Cassandra that you mentioned) is at such a high level, people would and do have a hard to of keeping track of them.
Now let's stay on topic.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 16:35:20 GMT -5
I'm really not, since you can quite clearly see that Bullseye doesn't even look at Cyclops' direction for the better part of the scan, and that's not even taking into account the distance between Bullseye and the tower Cyclops stands at. But to go in your terms, prove to me Bullseye is anticipating aim from that distance. No ifs or buts, I want proof he anticipated Cyclops' aim.
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Post by ckal on Jul 29, 2011 16:39:59 GMT -5
It is obvious he is moving in a manner which would make it very difficult for someone to actually aim and lock onto him. You don't have to look at someone to fool them. Take any sport for example that requires a player with a ball to get past someone on the other team. The more you look at someone the more of a target you make yourself. Bullseye is obviously being smart and making it very tough for Cylcops to hit an erratically moving target. Since he has the reflexes and speed to do this, which you stated, it is not surprising. Although Cyclops can use anticipation himself to either aim ahead, or even guess, he may get lucky and tag Bullseye. In this scan he didn't.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jul 29, 2011 16:42:50 GMT -5
Did the Bullseye post get deleted or something? I can't see it.
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Post by ckal on Jul 29, 2011 16:45:17 GMT -5
Yes. It was off topic/joking nomination, as well as an image. Check the rules.
On second hand, I forgot about no images. Dane's post contains an image so I'll correct that as well.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 16:57:51 GMT -5
The Dark Avengers were just landing on the island. Bullseye doesn't look at Cyclops when he is about to land, and doesn't even know who or what he is about to encounter at that point in time.
But you got to look at that certain someone to know when he's going to shoot those lightspeed fast beams of his and dodge his aim, otherwise you're toast. Cyclops gets a free shot in which he fires before Bullseye even knows he's there. He misses. Then Bullseye starts moving and Cyclops misses again, and again, and again, over ten times, all the while Bullseye still doesn't look at him.
I said he has the feats to support it as opposed to others who have dodged them, say, Storm, not feats to support it if the beams are, in fact, lightspeed.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 17:01:05 GMT -5
Also, I'm a bit unclear on this part, but since K4tz and me are also judges for this feat (since erik proposed the notion) shouldn't we refrain from actively participating to this debate for the same reasons he normally would have?
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Post by ckal on Jul 29, 2011 18:20:28 GMT -5
Also, I'm a bit unclear on this part, but since K4tz and me are also judges for this feat (since erik proposed the notion) shouldn't we refrain from actively participating to this debate for the same reasons he normally would have? I haven't thought of that to be honest. I think that's a good point, but unfortunately that vast majority of the debate so far has been between us three.
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Post by ckal on Jul 29, 2011 18:30:36 GMT -5
The Dark Avengers were just landing on the island. Bullseye doesn't look at Cyclops when he is about to land, and doesn't even know who or what he is about to encounter at that point in time. But you got to look at that certain someone to know when he's going to shoot those lightspeed fast beams of his and dodge his aim, otherwise you're toast. Cyclops gets a free shot in which he fires before Bullseye even knows he's there. He misses. Then Bullseye starts moving and Cyclops misses again, and again, and again, over ten times, all the while Bullseye still doesn't look at him. You would have to link the scan for me to get another look at it. Someone doesn't have to look at someone in order to dodge. They can try to behave in an erratic matter to make it hard for someone to hit them and anticipate their movements, which to me looked just like what Bullseye was doing. Even if he didn't see Cyclops when he landed and Cyclops just plain missed, he would instantly be aware he is being shot at. Regarding my previous post and your question, we need to get more people in this thread. And we need more proposals in the proposal thread.
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Post by Morpheus on Jul 29, 2011 18:30:49 GMT -5
In all honesty, I'm not even interested to debate this feat at such length, and only intervened due to you asking me to be among the judges in erik's place on this particular occasion. As judges, we should read through the evidence provided and either support, or overrule a notion after giving a reason, or two (at least that's how I think it should work), much like how it would happen within a courtroom. Debating for, or against a notion has us taking the place of the previously appointed "attorneys", so to speak.
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Post by ckal on Jul 29, 2011 19:17:19 GMT -5
I think that is how me and erik originally intended for it to work, but that is the way it should work regardless. We just need more people in here debating this. Otherwise, we will have to just vote and move on to the next one.
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Post by Erik-El on Jul 29, 2011 20:17:28 GMT -5
The simple answer as to why Bullseye dodged Cyclops blasts in utopia is that he was moving. Cyclops has very human eyes functionally speaking. He still can only follow objects as fast as a normal human eye can follow. No one would make the argument that Storm or Bullseye are faster than bullets when it comes to bouncing around but both have dodged bullets as well as optics.
My proposal is not that Cyclops can move his eyeballs at light speed. My proposal is that the optics can once fired.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jul 29, 2011 20:19:07 GMT -5
My proposal is not that Cyclops can move his eyeballs at light speed. My proposal is that the optics can once fired. as reasonable as can be expected if you ask me.
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Post by ckal on Jul 30, 2011 9:09:36 GMT -5
erik- Thank you for so eloquently stating what I've been driving at for a couple pages now.
NEED MORE OPINIONS AND DEBATE.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jul 30, 2011 22:17:51 GMT -5
The simple answer as to why Bullseye dodged Cyclops blasts in utopia is that he was moving. Cyclops has very human eyes functionally speaking. He still can only follow objects as fast as a normal human eye can follow. No one would make the argument that Storm or Bullseye are faster than bullets when it comes to bouncing around but both have dodged bullets as well as optics. My proposal is not that Cyclops can move his eyeballs at light speed. My proposal is that the optics can once fired. I agree with you that the optic blasts themselves are lightspeed.I don't believe however that there is a valid explanation for Storm or Bullseye dodging those beams.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Jul 30, 2011 23:42:20 GMT -5
How exactly can you dodge Cyclops' aim? His aim is just looking at you. As others have said, with the visor on, he would have to crane his neck and move his head, but why would that be a major obstacle or prevent him from maintaining visual pace with his opponent? Turning his head is one of the most simplistic motions he could make and is naturally reflexive when fixated on a moving target anyway.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jul 30, 2011 23:48:51 GMT -5
How exactly can you dodge Cyclops' aim? His aim is just looking at you. As others have said, with the visor on, he would have to crane his neck and move his head, but why would that be a major obstacle or prevent him from maintaining visual pace with his opponent? Turning his head is one of the most simplistic motions he could make and is naturally reflexive when fixated on a moving target anyway. That's the same thing I was thinking Silver.Also if I'm not mistaken. (I don't know about his current costume) but Cyclops at one point had a trigger in his gloves that would activate his optic blast instead of touching his visor.So there is really not excuse for how much he's been dodged.
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