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Post by Lord Barbatos on Dec 23, 2011 6:35:57 GMT -5
Thor.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 23, 2011 12:06:28 GMT -5
If Thor is holding back to a Pre-FP Wonder Woman, he would probably go down quickly, if he isn't holding back as recent books implied with a dang gash of space/ time in his gut, he should win. Any speed disadvantage is minimal with Mjolnir. I do not think holding back has much to do with this fight. If he is in character, he likely would but even without holding back, he does not have many recent strength feats to support any reasonable cause for concern on WW's part. After all, he did need the help of BRB just to lift Asgard and I am sure he was not holding back to do it. He is very strong, but I doubt so strong that WW cannot beat him. Actually, since WW has the strength of Hercules, and DC Hercules has better feats than Marvel Hercules, I would say WW is likely stronger than Thor as well. And Mjolnir is negated by WW's bracelets. Should he throw it at WW, what is to stop her from just grabbing it out of the air? After all, there are plenty of people that have done that and then used it against him. As stupid as I think that is (and believe me, I think it is ridiculous), it has happened frequently enough to be a valid feat.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
It's time for Powergrids 2.0
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Post by creator on Dec 23, 2011 13:53:30 GMT -5
I do not think holding back has much to do with this fight. If he is in character, he likely would but even without holding back, he does not have many recent strength feats to support any reasonable cause for concern on WW's part. After all, he did need the help of BRB just to lift Asgard and I am sure he was not holding back to do it. He is very strong, but I doubt so strong that WW cannot beat him. Actually, since WW has the strength of Hercules, and DC Hercules has better feats than Marvel Hercules, I would say WW is likely stronger than Thor as well. IMO she is significantly stronger than him, by at least an order of magnitude.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 23, 2011 20:14:52 GMT -5
I agree.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Dec 23, 2011 20:23:40 GMT -5
If Thor is holding back to a Pre-FP Wonder Woman, he would probably go down quickly, if he isn't holding back as recent books implied with a dang gash of space/ time in his gut, he should win. Any speed disadvantage is minimal with Mjolnir. How is any speed disadvantage minimal with Mjolnir? I've never seen any super speed combat movement from Thor.I have from Diana though.
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
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Post by Silver on Dec 23, 2011 21:31:30 GMT -5
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Dec 24, 2011 5:20:51 GMT -5
I Know it wasn't directed at me but. I wouldn't class his as far below WW in strength as others and his durability moe than covers such a shortfall. Quite Simply the powers of Mjolnir are what will give him the win. - Magic blocking (could block her link to Gaea and therefore her regeneration/ healing, just like he blocked Juggernaughts invulnerability
- Energy absorption / Projection (has created energy constructs in the past as well
- matter manipulation
- Other mystical effects (like when he shrunk King Hyperion)
- opening dimensional vortex
- weather manipulation/control
- GOD BLAST (which can seriously hurt the Midguard serpent and Galactus
His physical stats (particularly his durability) are sufficient IMHO that he can take what Dianna can dish out long enough to realize he will have to employ the full power of the mighty Uru weapon and get past his warrior pride
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 24, 2011 11:43:23 GMT -5
You bring up some interesting points Beatboks. Things I had not even considered. But now that you brought them up, I will try to address them accordingly. I do believe WW is well above Thor in strength. Thor himself has admitted that Hercules is physically the stronger of the two. DC's Hercules has much more impressive strength feats than Marvel Hercules does. For example, someone once said M Hercules dragged Manhattan around. Well DC Hercules held up all of Paradise Island for 3,000 years at only half strength. Paradise Island is at least as large as Manhattan. I would argue that it is significantly larger considering both the entire cities of Themyscira and New Bana Mighdall only took up a extremely small fraction of the island. Entire cities. And after Hercules merged with his avatar Heracles, he was able to match Diana's current strength levels. A level that he would eventually lose since the gift of Diana's power was that the longer she is alive, the stronger she becomes. But I digress. In any case, both Diana and Hercules at full power are nearly as strong as Superman. - Okay so let us assume that he does block her healing. The Gaea healing actually takes time to complete anyway and would likely not be used in battle. WW has to pray and actually be touching earth to do it. Her normal healing abilities are not through Gaea, but are her body's natural ability.
- Diana does not fire any energy projectiles so the absorption would not benefit him. His energy blasts would though but WW has her bracelets, which I am completely confident would take the blast without trouble.
- I admit that I do not see an answer for the matter manipulation for Diana here. But how often does he use such an ability in battle?
- Diana has magical resistance to harmful magics so I do not see something like shrinking Diana to be effective.
- If he opens a dimensional vortex, there is no reason Diana would go through.
- Diana's bracelets should be able to handle a god blast. They were able to handle a combined god blast from her own gods that was powerful enough to destroy Olympus and it had nothing to do with her own strength because at the time, she was still weak enough that a falling nuke nearly ripped her arms off. The B53 is the "active" nuke at the time the comic was released and that only weighs 4 tons and change.
Thor is durable. I agree with that. But durable enough to take a hit in Superman's strength range? Based on his recent feats, I say that is not very likely. In fact, it seems that all of the reasons you believe Thor would win are based on Classic Thor. In other words, abilities that Thor has not used in many years barring alternate timelines.
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Post by ckal on Dec 24, 2011 21:51:22 GMT -5
First of all, that is an awesome picture of Thor.
Second of all, Thor likely seduces Diana, has sex with her and doesn't use a condom, and leaves before the sun comes up.
If the off chance arises that they actually fight, Thor wins.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 24, 2011 21:54:15 GMT -5
So what you are saying.... is that Thor lacks the stamina to go all night with Wonder Woman?
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Post by ckal on Dec 24, 2011 21:57:05 GMT -5
That is not what I am saying.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 24, 2011 21:59:32 GMT -5
Lol
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Post by Gender on Dec 25, 2011 18:34:00 GMT -5
How is any speed disadvantage minimal with Mjolnir? I've never seen any super speed combat movement from Thor.I have from Diana though. Because he can drag himself around at superluminal speeds and pound that hammer into targets dragging himself along for the ride to slam his hammer into folk's faces. Anyhow if these help I'll just necro them from Lobo vs Thor: Accelerating himself in a fight with the Surfer, moving out of the way to knock straight into Galactus during his astral dance with Odin: media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2115491-thorvssilversurfer16_2_.jpgmedia.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2115492-thorvssilversurfer17_1_.jpgmedia.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2115493-thorvssilversurfer17_2_.jpgKnocks Quicksilver on his rear and effortlessly pins him to the ground by the throat(He's still wide away despite that hit to the head): media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2125677-thorownsquicksilver.jpgAccelerates himself to rescue grab Rulk, who is already being twisted and distorted by the Black Hole's event horizon: media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2125641-thorblackhole1.pngmedia.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2125642-thorblackhole2.pngIt's not like he hasn't shown high super human speed in the past, like catching a tank shell with his bare hands in First Thunder: media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/1751585-thor_firstthunder4008.jpgmedia.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/1751586-thor_firstthunder4009.jpgThis perception of Thor as incapable of speed outside how fast he can toss his hammer, which people have no issue with him using it to blitz multiple people directing it with mental commands(in other words, his noggin is clearly processing information fast), yet he can't tug himself around at those same speeds to tag or even rescue individuals as he's done in the past. Hell he wouldn't be capable of sending people into orbit without some level of speed to even do so. I do not think holding back has much to do with this fight. If he is in character, he likely would but even without holding back, he does not have many recent strength feats to support any reasonable cause for concern on WW's part. After all, he did need the help of BRB just to lift Asgard and I am sure he was not holding back to do it. He is very strong, but I doubt so strong that WW cannot beat him. Actually, since WW has the strength of Hercules, and DC Hercules has better feats than Marvel Hercules, I would say WW is likely stronger than Thor as well. And Mjolnir is negated by WW's bracelets. Should he throw it at WW, what is to stop her from just grabbing it out of the air? After all, there are plenty of people that have done that and then used it against him. As stupid as I think that is (and believe me, I think it is ridiculous), it has happened frequently enough to be a valid feat. You have to take into considering how powerful Thor was at the time when he people imply he needed help from Beta Ray Bill to lift anything. That was Thor while he was in possession of the Odinforce. The same Thor threw down with the Destroyer armor and tanked a direct visor blast. And the Destroyer has handed some of Thor's most brutal physical beat downs in his carrier to boot and nearly vaporized him with the same visor blast he took a direct hit with as he revived the other Asgardians. It's also the same Thor that one shotted Bor, shattering Mjolnir in the process. Plus what should have been just one of those cool on panel moments of Thor and Bill just catching Asgard on their shoulders for a moment, didn't exactly look like it took any effort on their part. i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/brb_physical15.jpgi673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/brb_physical16.jpgThor and Herc once upon a time did shake a planet out of orbit with an arm-wrestling contest and casually bro-fist dimensional portals shut if that counts for anything against DC Herc. Although I think Thor has better lifting feats on Herc anyhow. I'm not sure those bracelets exactly negate one of the more ridiculous plot hammers in fiction, but I don't have much issue with WW blocking a toss by them, I was more so implying him using it to generally make up the speed gap he has on foot( since those speed feats are limited to more so appearing in front of folks running from him and leaping) like he was doing with Nul when he was pounding in the face multiple times mid air despite a space time gash in his gut that eventually kills him in his fight against the Serpent. She can grab it, but there isn't much to stop him from demanding his hammer to return. If Zeus, the Destroyer and the like can't prevent it from coming back to his hands I doubt Diana can. It's fair game if Thor doesn't call for it back for whatever reason though.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 25, 2011 20:47:19 GMT -5
@data: There are a few things I will need you to provide context for. - Why is Thor wearing special armor in the Surfer scans? Would this change provide any enhancement he otherwise did not have?
- Please explain the Rulk scans. The character speaking specifically said that the black hole had already winked out and that Rulk never crossed the event horizon anyway.
Now for the scans I think do not serve. - Quicksilver is not that impressive of a speedster even today. And he never struck or showed the ability to be able to strike Quicksilver. He destroyed terrain that caused QS to lose his footing.
- Catching a tank shell is barely a super human speed feat. Spider-Man could almost do it.
I do not think anyone thinks that Thor is not fast. I think the general consensus is that Thor is not THAT fast in current comics. Plus you do not need speed to punch someone into orbit. Hulk can easily do it and he has no speed whatsoever. Thor did need BRB to help lift Asgard. He specifically tells BRB this just before they go under Asgard and he commands Asgard to fall. If he did not need BRB, he would have just gone under it alone and lifted it alone. What Thor and Hercules did in a classic comic is kind of my point. Thor is not written to have the same level of power he did X amount of years ago. Marvel does not do all inclusive retcons like DC does. They make adjustments along the way and we are supposed to just accept it. How Thor is written now are his limits and those limits apply retroactively. Not sure why the bracelets cannot do what Captain America's shield can do despite evidence suggesting otherwise. I admit, I have not read all of Fear Itself so I cannot address that portion of your argument. But out of all the times he has lost his hammer, I have yet to see Thor command it to return. From a robot lifting it from his hands to Rulk taking it from him and so on. Thor SHOULD have been able to and I fully agree on that. But for whatever reason, be it CIS or idiocy on the writer's part, Thor does not show to always make that connection during a battle. But I think I can agree that if Thor does command it to return, Diana likely would not be able to stop it. However, she could and probably would use that to her advantage.
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Post by ckal on Dec 26, 2011 0:54:03 GMT -5
There are far too many things to comment on or correct in this page alone for me to make an effort.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 26, 2011 0:56:37 GMT -5
There are far too many things to comment on or correct in this page alone for me to make an effort. I see time away from the Ledger has softened your words like that of a rose petal.
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Post by Gender on Dec 26, 2011 3:25:24 GMT -5
@data: There are a few things I will need you to provide context for. Okay, I'll try my best to clear this up. It isn't stated by Fraction to give any particular benefits. Thor is wearing it for some reason, but outside potentially added durability that reason is left to be fairly unknown. He did tank a bull-rush to Mars and a blast from the Silver Surfer none worse for wear in it, but that was about it. And given he was gripping his wound in pain prior and outright bleeding rainbows out in mid fight it didn't do much for that either. Regardless after dumping the space armor, he still seemed to move just as fast. ( Those 3 scans took place between Mighty Thor 3-4) media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2115499-thorvssilversurfer20_2_.jpg(Mighty Thor 5 if I remember right) [/li][li] Please explain the Rulk scans. The character speaking specifically said that the black hole had already winked out and that Rulk never crossed the event horizon anyway. [/li][/ul][/quote] Hulk 26. that was the Watcher speaking: media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136732-rulkhulk26_3.jpgmedia.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136730-rulkhulk27_1.jpgAs Banner mentioned it should have already winked out and it's implied the Watcher still has a grudge against Rulk, namely why it did not wink out. I wasn't posting it as a FTL feat, Thor's already shown Mjolnir is able to enter a black hole and return without any trouble, that was just a showing of Thor applying speed to physically interact with the universe and grab a target he shouldn't have even been able to see as you already begin to become distorted, stretched and torn apart prior to hitting the event horizon. Depends who is writing, given he had some brief moments of pulling off Flash themed speed post return of his power. And destroy terrain? Quicksilver was easily dodging his lightning, even mentioning how easy it is for him to avoid, Thor a moment later closes the gap( as you already see him flying as Thor strikes with Mjolnir) then proceeds to restrain him. The terrain was still quite there. [/li][li] Catching a tank shell is barely a super human speed feat. Spider-Man could almost do it. [/li][/ul][/quote] Well I guess since you said 'almost' I can't dispute that, but it wasn't meant to be some sort of grand showing of speed from First Thunder, just to show he himself isn't this slow brick everyone seems to imply Thor is. I have my doubts that is entirely true. Might be under-rating the Hulk, not sure how any creature can achieve such improvements in virtually every other physical stat and not in one particular other. But if we are to take the feat seriously with everything else you aren't going to be sending anyone into orbit with lifting strength. media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136739-woops1.pngmedia.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136737-woops2.pngNow I feel a little silly about forgetting that three word bit of dialogue, considering I made a parody using that cut out from the page. Albeit where Thor 'explicitly' asks for help lifting it, rather than just telling Bill he is needed as they walk other to fulfill their bro-moment on panel, which I'm positive Fraction was shooting for a cool moment to showcase Thor and Bill working together, rather than a low showing for the character. Although I guess Thor could have used the help balancing the city on his shoulders, as he should be significantly stronger than Bill is at this point making Bill's contribution mute. Depends on how you look at it, in Astonishing Thor you see Thor smashing mountain sized segments of Ego as they head onto Earth, simply getting it on with a Goddess inside Alter Ego KOed the living planet and that hammer as well as Thor himself still regularly reveal random abilities to save his rear or make for a Global Climate change PSA. I don't have any issue with posting scans if you'd like from either his fight with Nul, the Serpent and the like. That stuff is easy to grab and the intro page of Mighty Thor 8 reveals Thor's wounds from earlier never healed so that's easy to grab a scan of: media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136743-gashinhisgut.jpgWhich makes sense of him knocking himself out by beating Nul's face in and his following death to a lackluster fight with the Serpent. Leobforce and zero gravity was Rulk's excuse: media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136745-cantrobfoesofpower0.pngmedia.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136746-cantrobfoesofpower.pngAs for the earlier items involving mechanical arms and such more than likely has to do with writers having not thought up the enchantment that allows Thor to yank it back from other folks hands(Unless I missed the part where Odin or why it's explained he can do it for Zeus and the Destroyer, nabbed from the dreaded place of other forums!). media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136750-mjolnirreturn1__2_.jpgmedia.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136751-mjolnirreturn1__3_.jpgMaybe I'm wrong and the worthy sticker over-rides this enchantment for whatever reason, albeit Odin did the same thing to Thor in Mighty Thor 6(can't find the scans on my computer so I grabbed a wordless preview). media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136763-odinmjolnirsummon__2_.jpgmedia.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136762-odinmjolnirsummon__1_.jpgmedia.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2136761-odinmjolnirsummon__3_.jpgBut that is Odin, same guy made the hammer drop with a word. There are far too many things to comment on or correct in this page alone for me to make an effort. My post couldn't have been that bad. >.<
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Post by ckal on Dec 26, 2011 7:58:32 GMT -5
Hellos (I think)- lol no I'm mostly referring to Erik.
Erik- you haven't gone soft on me out in beautiful San Diego now have you?
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Dec 26, 2011 8:21:19 GMT -5
You bring up some interesting points Beatboks. Things I had not even considered. But now that you brought them up, I will try to address them accordingly. I do believe WW is well above Thor in strength. Thor himself has admitted that Hercules is physically the stronger of the two. DC's Hercules has much more impressive strength feats than Marvel Hercules does. For example, someone once said M Hercules dragged Manhattan around. Well DC Hercules held up all of Paradise Island for 3,000 years at only half strength. Paradise Island is at least as large as Manhattan. I would argue that it is significantly larger considering both the entire cities of Themyscira and New Bana Mighdall only took up a extremely small fraction of the island. Entire cities. And after Hercules merged with his avatar Heracles, he was able to match Diana's current strength levels. A level that he would eventually lose since the gift of Diana's power was that the longer she is alive, the stronger she becomes. But I digress. In any case, both Diana and Hercules at full power are nearly as strong as Superman. - Okay so let us assume that he does block her healing. The Gaea healing actually takes time to complete anyway and would likely not be used in battle. WW has to pray and actually be touching earth to do it. Her normal healing abilities are not through Gaea, but are her body's natural ability.
- Diana does not fire any energy projectiles so the absorption would not benefit him. His energy blasts would though but WW has her bracelets, which I am completely confident would take the blast without trouble.
- I admit that I do not see an answer for the matter manipulation for Diana here. But how often does he use such an ability in battle?
- Diana has magical resistance to harmful magics so I do not see something like shrinking Diana to be effective.
- If he opens a dimensional vortex, there is no reason Diana would go through.
- Diana's bracelets should be able to handle a god blast. They were able to handle a combined god blast from her own gods that was powerful enough to destroy Olympus and it had nothing to do with her own strength because at the time, she was still weak enough that a falling nuke nearly ripped her arms off. The B53 is the "active" nuke at the time the comic was released and that only weighs 4 tons and change.
Thor is durable. I agree with that. But durable enough to take a hit in Superman's strength range? Based on his recent feats, I say that is not very likely. In fact, it seems that all of the reasons you believe Thor would win are based on Classic Thor. In other words, abilities that Thor has not used in many years barring alternate timelines.
Easily durable enough to take a hit from Superman level Strength range and greater. In RECENT (not classic) tales he fought Silver Surfer for a couple of issues in a row. He did that while injured with a gash in his side after felling the World Tree. Not to mention he took everything the "chaos King" had to offer (who was "THOUSANDS of Gods" in power, so greater than the blast your talking about for Dianna) and blasted back with enough to take down Chaos King (granted the effort of which killed him). www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/thor/108-549988/the_mighty_thor__3_006_07/105-2136806/www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/thor/108-549988/the_mighty_thor__3_008_09/105-2136807/www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/thor/108-549988/the_mighty_thor__5_003/105-2136808/www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/thor/108-549988/the_mighty_thor__5_004/105-2136809/www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/thor/108-549988/the_mighty_thor__5_005/105-2136810/the rest of the images are on my CV Thor page, I truly couldn't be bothered loading any more.
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Post by Erik-El on Dec 26, 2011 12:19:57 GMT -5
Fuck it. I do not care enough to try and take on three fanboys to my one fanboy. It is not worth it. Thor wins.
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