ONCE AND FOR ALL: Wonder Woman vs Thor

[Crom-Cruach]

Dec 26, 2011 12:19:57 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Fuck it. I do not care enough to try and take on three fanboys to my one fanboy. It is not worth it. Thor wins.

loser.

[Beatboks]

Dec 26, 2011 12:19:57 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Fuck it. I do not care enough to try and take on three fanboys to my one fanboy. It is not worth it. Thor wins.

Always a pleasure to help someone seethe light (re - Thor) LOL

for the record Erik, I'm not saying WW isn't stronger or faster (much) than Thor. just that when it comes to Thor there are more than just the physicals to take into account. You asked how often he uses some abilities (matter manipulation), the answer is not much because he doesn't often come up against someone who's stronger faster etc. his durability means that when he does he can take the licks long enough to overcome his warrior pride and employ the vast power of mighty Mjolnir. It's the same reason I've always said he should be able to take an even number of fights with Supes (depending on plot)

[creator]

Dec 26, 2011 12:19:57 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Fuck it. I do not care enough to try and take on three fanboys to my one fanboy. It is not worth it. Thor wins.

Don't give up.
You're in the right

[Erik-El]

Dec 26, 2011 19:44:44 GMT -5 creator said:

Dec 26, 2011 12:19:57 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Fuck it. I do not care enough to try and take on three fanboys to my one fanboy. It is not worth it. Thor wins.

Don't give up.
You're in the right

Thanks for the support but I could already tell where the thread was going with some of the comments and it was not going to be pretty.

[Beatboks]

Dec 26, 2011 19:44:44 GMT -5 creator said:

Dec 26, 2011 12:19:57 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Fuck it. I do not care enough to try and take on three fanboys to my one fanboy. It is not worth it. Thor wins.

Don't give up.
You're in the right

So what do YOU believe, that WW's defences are to the vast powers of Mjolnir. How would she deal with it's force fields, with it's ability to make him invisible and intangible, the ability to absorb energy from just about anywhere/ Thing and project this energy, etc.

The problem i see for WW is that the only thing that really does any lasting damage to Thor is higher magic. She doesn't have any to use, so he will endure all her attacks. He wont obviously be fast enough to counter or block but after taking a few (or a lot) of hits he'll throw up a barrier with Mjolnir (either around himself or more likely around her) and wins the battle with simple containment or by BFR (having her trapped in a confined area in which he opens a vortex), or by matter manipulation (transmuting her bracelets or the air to chains to combine them- doesn't she still have the weakness to being "bound by man")

[ckal]

Dec 26, 2011 12:19:57 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Fuck it. I do not care enough to try and take on three fanboys to my one fanboy. It is not worth it. Thor wins.

Obviously my fanboy is greater than yours.

It is strong within all of us.

[Killshot Caine]

Wonder Woman..still.

[Erik-El]

Lol.

[creator]

Dec 26, 2011 20:16:09 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

So what do YOU believe, that WW's defences are to the vast powers of Mjolnir. How would she deal with it's force fields, with it's ability to make him invisible and intangible, the ability to absorb energy from just about anywhere/ Thing and project this energy, etc. 

The problem i see for WW is that the only thing that really does any lasting damage to Thor is higher magic. She doesn't have any to use, so he will endure all her attacks. He wont obviously be fast enough to counter or block but after taking a few (or a lot) of hits he'll throw up a barrier with Mjolnir (either around himself or more likely around her) and wins the battle with simple containment or by BFR (having her trapped in a confined area in which he opens a vortex), or by matter manipulation (transmuting her bracelets or the air to chains to combine them- doesn't she still have the weakness to being "bound by man")

I have a question regarding the powers of Mjolnir that can be brought to bear in this fight.
From the Once And For All rules, it is stated that "-No exceptions for powers (ex: no removal of power(s) from a character in an attempt to make it more even)".
However where do we draw the line on powers ?
Are characters allowed to use powers that have been used 2 or 3 times over the course of 40 years ?
How about if they have not been used in the past decade and thus perhaps are not current for the existing incarnation of said character ?
How about if said character could have used many of these powers to overcome many foes but did not do so, despite finding himself and others in harms way. Surely they would have used them if they are In their arsenal ?
Powers originally generated in the stories from the 1960s or 70s, back when editorial control was significantly worse (PIS) should be questioned as to being relevant today, especially if they have not been used in the last decade.

There is serious question for the Once And For All rules as it dictates using the current incarnation of the character and the powers of the current incarnation are based on the writings of the current author. Some powers do reappear but when talking about a character like Thor, a massive range of powers he has displayed once a decade in the past will not reappear under the current writer.
Let's highlight a nice example. Thor's recent fight against the Dr Doom created Destroyer. Surely he could have finished the battle quickly with Mjolnir's matter manipulation powers or magnetic powers or 1 of a myriad of other powers..........

When I talk about Thor it comes down to the following classic powers for Mjolnir, powers used with high frequency.

Summoning and controlling storms (lighting, thunder, wind, rain)
Projecting lighting
Absorbing energies (Almost any type, even drawing them in from long ranges)
Projecting Antiforce and Godblast energy blasts
Being thrown and guided by Thor, accelerating even to FTL speeds
Returning to Thor's hand
Spinning to generate shields (in hand and thrown around objects)
Spinning to generate winds

I am sure there are other classic powers that i have not listed that have been used repeatedly in the last decade on more than a few occasions.

Her bracelets were forged from the Ageis if I remember correctly and have blocked attacks from Ares, Zeus and Darkseid, even forming large shields in the past.
She also has her lasso which can hold Thor and likewise render him incapacitated.
She has speed feats that eclipse his (from those I remember).
Even if I am generous and say he is a fast as lighting (which I don't think he is), you yourself have made arguments for her reaction speed to closing in on light speed and light speed is a lot faster than lightning. To put it in perspective, it is almost 4800 times faster.
In the same vein, she has more consistently shown strength at a higher level.
Just look at the feats of her peers, Superman and Capt Marvel as comparators.

Then let's also look at the fact that neither has knowledge of the other as per the rules.
Thor himself has said that he holds back against beings he does not know (in case they be mortal). So would he really go straight away to trying to use all the powers of Mjolnir....simple answer no.
However WW is more likely to employ her lasso nearer the start of a battle to restrain an opponent as it less deadly than a hammer or lightning bolt to the face.
In short, her superior skill, greater speed and greater likelihood to employ the full potential of her lasso on an unknown assailant, as it is not deadly, are more likelihood to provide a win.

Eric, you can take up the baton now

[Beatboks]

Dec 26, 2011 22:50:43 GMT -5 creator said:

Dec 26, 2011 20:16:09 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

So what do YOU believe, that WW's defences are to the vast powers of Mjolnir. How would she deal with it's force fields, with it's ability to make him invisible and intangible, the ability to absorb energy from just about anywhere/ Thing and project this energy, etc. 

The problem i see for WW is that the only thing that really does any lasting damage to Thor is higher magic. She doesn't have any to use, so he will endure all her attacks. He wont obviously be fast enough to counter or block but after taking a few (or a lot) of hits he'll throw up a barrier with Mjolnir (either around himself or more likely around her) and wins the battle with simple containment or by BFR (having her trapped in a confined area in which he opens a vortex), or by matter manipulation (transmuting her bracelets or the air to chains to combine them- doesn't she still have the weakness to being "bound by man")

I have a question regarding the powers of Mjolnir that can be brought to bear in this fight.
From the Once And For All rules, it is stated that "-No exceptions for powers (ex: no removal of power(s) from a character in an attempt to make it more even)".
However where do we draw the line on powers ?
Are characters allowed to use powers that have been used 2 or 3 times over the course of 40 years ?
How about if they have not been used in the past decade and thus perhaps are not current for the existing incarnation of said character ?
How about if said character could have used many of these powers to overcome many foes but did not do so, despite finding himself and others in harms way. Surely they would have used them if they are In their arsenal ?
Powers originally generated in the stories from the 1960s or 70s, back when editorial control was significantly worse (PIS) should be questioned as to being relevant today, especially if they have not been used in the last decade.

There is serious question for the Once And For All rules as it dictates using the current incarnation of the character and the powers of the current incarnation are based on the writings of the current author. Some powers do reappear but when talking about a character like Thor, a massive range of powers he has displayed once a decade in the past will not reappear under the current writer.
Let's highlight a nice example. Thor's recent fight against the Dr Doom created Destroyer. Surely he could have finished the battle quickly with Mjolnir's matter manipulation powers or magnetic powers or 1 of a myriad of other powers..........

When I talk about Thor it comes down to the following classic powers for Mjolnir, powers used with high frequency.

Summoning and controlling storms (lighting, thunder, wind, rain)
Projecting lighting
Absorbing energies (Almost any type, even drawing them in from long ranges)
Projecting Antiforce and Godblast energy blasts
Being thrown and guided by Thor, accelerating even to FTL speeds
Returning to Thor's hand
Spinning to generate shields (in hand and thrown around objects)
Spinning to generate winds

I am sure there are other classic powers that i have not listed that have been used repeatedly in the last decade on more than a few occasions.

Her bracelets were forged from the Ageis if I remember correctly and have blocked attacks from Ares, Zeus and Darkseid, even forming large shields in the past.
She also has her lasso which can hold Thor and likewise render him incapacitated.
She has speed feats that eclipse his (from those I remember).
Even if I am generous and say he is a fast as lighting (which I don't think he is), you yourself have made arguments for her reaction speed to closing in on light speed and light speed is a lot faster than lightning. To put it in perspective, it is almost 4800 times faster.
In the same vein, she has more consistently shown strength at a higher level.
Just look at the feats of her peers, Superman and Capt Marvel as comparators.

Then let's also look at the fact that neither has knowledge of the other as per the rules.
Thor himself has said that he holds back against beings he does not know (in case they be mortal). So would he really go straight away to trying to use all the powers of Mjolnir....simple answer no.
However WW is more likely to employ her lasso nearer the start of a battle to restrain an opponent as it less deadly than a hammer or lightning bolt to the face.
In short, her superior skill, greater speed and greater likelihood to employ the full potential of her lasso on an unknown assailant, as it is not deadly, are more likelihood to provide a win.

Eric, you can take up the baton now

Valid arguments, but you've missed the point of my argument.
Yes Thor "holds back" or more to the point his warrior nature means that he prefers to fight an honorable battle and win that way. As i believe I already stated WW is MUCH faster than Thor

faster (much)

, I'm not arguing that.

Most of the feats i have mentioned have been used in recent versions as well as classic. When it comes to Thor I really don't see a difference, the versions of Thor are simply Thor, Odin force Thor, and Rune King Thor. All of the various powers displayed by Thor when not Rune King and Odin Force are his to bring to bear. The fact that he does so less frequently speaks more to character and plot than actual power ability.

For example no one would deny that Superman is FTL and yet he rarely uses speed and blitzes in combat. he employs that speed only when it is shown to be absolutely needed. Thor rarely uses many of the abilities of Mjolnir in combat too. he prefers to fight a good battle. He only draws on them when he's faced with opponents whose power is sufficient to warrant them. This is the whole crux of my argument. Thor's durability is such that even when faced with beings who are stronger, faster, with vastly greater powers at their disposal ( like Silver Surfer, Sentry, etc), he can withstand the onslaught of their powers. his durability means that he is ALWAYS able to hold too until it is evident that he "needs" to draw on those abilities. the fact that he doesn't do so often is due more to the fact that in the MU there are very few beings that he can't match on a physical level.

His warrior nature is such that if he can fight and win on his sheer skill, strength, speed and the limited blasts and such you mention he will. What I'm saying is that when he can't win this way (which I will concede he can't against Dianna, she is stronger and MUCH faster, with MUCH greater skill) his durability will always keep him in the fight until he employs the full power he has to offer. It's more a question of pride, his pride will prevent him from simply going all out and not testing himself, the same pride will not allow him to loose when it get's to a crunch.

Sorry if that hasn't been clear in my points thus far.

Again this is why both on CV and DC boards i have always debated that a Superman Thor battle "honestly" fought would be an either way bet, and depend entirely on plot.

[Power NeXus]

This is pretty much the best debate here we've had in months.

[creator]

Dec 26, 2011 23:25:35 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

Valid arguments, but you've missed the point of my argument. 
Yes Thor "holds back" or more to the point his warrior nature means that he prefers to fight an honorable battle and win that way.  As i believe I already stated  WW is MUCH faster than Thor

faster (much)

, I'm not arguing that.

Im glad we agree that Thor holds back.
So when he is entangled by an indestructible lasso and cannot move a muscle, and WW uses the powers of the lasso to hypnotise (she does not use it like that often nowadays) Thor, I guess he is screwed since she won't be holding back.

Most of the feats i have mentioned have been used in recent versions as well as classic.

You'll have to tell me / show me when in the last decade he has repeatedly used Mjolnir to go invisible, or intangible or transmute the air around someone in to chains as the last Thor comic I collected was 3 yrs ago.

When it comes to Thor I really don't see a difference, the versions of Thor are simply Thor, Odin force Thor, and Rune King Thor. All of the various powers displayed by Thor when not Rune King and Odin Force are his to bring to bear.  The fact that he does so less frequently speaks more to character and plot than actual power ability.

Then we have to disagree here.
I don't think a power used very occasionally over 5 decades, but not actually employed by Thor in the last 10 years is valid because he has had encounters where he did not employ them despite grave need. Again I cite his battle against the false Destroyer as a clear example. He was on the receiving end of some devasting blows and yet failed to use matter manipulation to turn it in to something else or use his magnetic powers to immobilise it.

For example no one would deny that Superman is FTL and yet he rarely uses speed and blitzes in combat. he employs that speed only when it is shown to be absolutely needed.

Yet Superman has used his super speed to either attack or to process information far more often over the last decade than I remember Thor using some of his once a decade powers.

Thor rarely uses many of the abilities of Mjolnir in combat too. he prefers to fight a good battle. He only draws on them when he's faced with opponents whose power is sufficient to warrant them.

And even then he seemingly fails to use them even under these circumstances with any regularity.
He's a warrior who has been faced with life and death decisions.
Here is another example. In his battle with the Thing and Hulk, when they were possessed and empowered by the Serpent, whey did he not use his hammer to cancel out their magics and render them weaker.......
How about turning the air around them in to chains.....
What about going intangible to help himself win the battle as 2 on 1 is unfair odds and he was taking serious damage in the battle.
These range of once a decade powers are only used when a writer recalls that he used something like them once 15 years ago.
That's why I focus on his attributed regular use powers as they are also easier to quantify.

This is the whole crux of my argument. Thor's durability is such that even when faced with beings who are stronger, faster, with vastly greater powers at their disposal ( like Silver Surfer, Sentry, etc), he can withstand the onslaught of their powers. his durability means that he is ALWAYS able to hold on until it is evident that he "needs" to draw on those abilities. the fact that he doesn't do so often is due more to the fact that in the MU there are very few beings that he can't match on a physical level.

I don't think that Sentry or the Silver Surfer (without drawing hugely on external energies) are stronger than him. His durability is such that he takes punches from Sentry, from Hulk, from Hercules, from Gladiator and continues but not without some level of damage, even if it is relatively minor (bad bruising equivalent). But these are all his peers in strength.
This takes me back to the argument that WW is significantly stronger than him. Her routine strength appears to be around an order of magnitude greater (at least) than his. I don't recall Thor getting hit regularly by an opponent 10x stronger and able to deliver dozens of punches a second with precision that can focus on a body's weak points, a feat she has shown many times.

His warrior nature is such that if he can fight and win on his sheer skill, strength, speed and the limited blasts and such you mention he will. What I'm saying is that when he can't win this way (which I will concede he can't against Dianna, she is stronger and MUCH faster, with MUCH greater skill) his durability will always keep him in the fight until he employs the full power he has to offer. It's more a question of pride, his pride will prevent him from simply going all out and not testing himself, the same pride will not allow him to loose when it get's to a crunch.

Again this is why both on CV and DC boards i have always debated that a Superman Thor battle "honestly" fought would be an either way bet, and depend entirely on plot.

And this is why I draw on the fact of them operating in character.
He does hold back, more often than not and won't employ his hammers more deadly abilities straight away.
Her written history indicates she will use the lasso to incapacitate an opponent far more readily because it does no damage. It's a non lethal attack mode.
Even putting aside the hypnosis / control power she has displayed occasionally via the lasso since her precrisis days, she could still win via the Once and For All rules via incapacitation. 

Oh and Superman would kick his ass

[creator]

Dec 27, 2011 0:38:44 GMT -5 Power NeXus said:

This is pretty much the best debate here we've had in months.

No, there have been better.

[Beatboks]

Dec 27, 2011 9:16:51 GMT -5 creator said:

You'll have to tell me / show me when in the last decade he has repeatedly used Mjolnir to go invisible, or intangible or transmute the air around someone in to chains as the last Thor comic I collected was 3 yrs ago.

I did say "most" invisible, or intangible would not be part of the most. matter manip' has happened at least once (maybe twice) in that time, but at much lower levels, I'd have to look.

Then we have to disagree here.
I don't think a power used very occasionally over 5 decades, but not actually employed by Thor in the last 10 years is valid because he has had encounters where he did not employ them despite grave need. Again I cite his battle against the false Destroyer as a clear example. He was on the receiving end of some devasting blows and yet failed to use matter manipulation to turn it in to something else or use his magnetic powers to immobilise it.

OK with this I'm just confused. Very early in my time on CV i debated exactly the way your describing. Trying to exclude feats that I felt would be classed as PIS because of their irregularity. During the course of one such debate (with admittedly some misunderstandings by both debaters) I was shown the era of this stance by a debater that I came to greatly respect through repeated debates ( to the point where I often defer to his opinion on many of my favorite characters, which is on occasion reciprocated) www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/jla-original-vs-f4original-x-men-originalavengersoriginal/557430/?page=4

The idea that WW would use the lasso straight out of the gate is absurd. Yes she does but reluctantly for exactly the same reasons that Supes Doesn't use speed and Thor doesn't go straight for Mjolnir. To do so would mean all stories off these characters would be over in the first few panels

Oh and Superman would kick his ass

NO he really wouldn't

No, there have been better.

interestingly the best ones that come to mind for me (in which I participated anyway) were all about Wonder Woman. For most of these I was on the other side of course.

[Beatboks]

Dec 26, 2011 20:09:56 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Dec 26, 2011 19:44:44 GMT -5 creator said:

Don't give up.
You're in the right

Thanks for the support but I could already tell where the thread was going with some of the comments and it was not going to be pretty.

I forfeit/ withdraw from debate, consider it a birthday present (don't say I never give you anything). So one less Thor fanboy to worry about

[creator]

Dec 28, 2011 5:19:21 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

I did say "most" invisible, or intangible would not be part of the most. matter manip' has happened at least once (maybe twice) in that time, but at much lower levels, I'd have to look. 

ok. You look and let's see what powers (and their level of use) does Thor employ since his rebirth (post loss of the Odin/Thor power) or simply over the last decade.

OK with this I'm just confused. Very early in my time on CV i debated exactly the way your describing. Trying to exclude feats that I felt would be classed as PIS because of their irregularity. During the course of one such debate (with admittedly some misunderstandings by both debaters) I was shown the era of this stance by a debater that I came to greatly respect through repeated debates ( to the point where I often defer to his opinion on many of my favorite characters, which is on occasion reciprocated)  www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/jla-original-vs-f4original-x-men-originalavengersoriginal/557430/?page=4

I'm not here to co- debate an argument from 17 months ago and the argument there is different due to the nature/history of the DC universe. Hell, reading through that debate there are still errors regarding the power levels of some of the stated characters (mostly marvel ones).
I'll stick to the argument here. Powers displayed a few times over the course of decades with less tight editorial control and that have not been seen in the last decade should be put aside and discounted. All the powers I mentioned are ones he has employed over the last decade or have been used several times.

The idea that WW would use the lasso straight out of the gate is absurd. Yes she does but reluctantly for exactly the same reasons that Supes Doesn't use speed and Thor doesn't go straight for Mjolnir. To do so would mean all stories off these characters would be over in the first few panels

I did not say she would use it straight away.
I said Her written history indicates she will use the lasso to incapacitate an opponent far more readily because it does no damage because, like I said, He does hold back, more often than not and won't employ his hammers more deadly abilities straight away.

NO he really wouldn't

Come on. Deep down you know the S-man would cook his Norse goose

interestingly the best ones that come to mind for me (in which I participated anyway) were all about Wonder Woman. For most of these I was on the other side of course.

As you should be here

[Erik-El]

Dec 28, 2011 6:55:07 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

Dec 26, 2011 20:09:56 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Thanks for the support but I could already tell where the thread was going with some of the comments and it was not going to be pretty.

I forfeit/ withdraw from debate, consider it a birthday present (don't say I never give you anything). So one less Thor fanboy to worry about

Awww..... You saw the birthday listing. A Wonder Woman victory is a great birthday present indeed so thank you.

[creator]

Dec 28, 2011 6:55:07 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

I forfeit/ withdraw from debate, consider it a birthday present (don't say I never give you anything). So one less Thor fanboy to worry about

[Gender]

Dec 27, 2011 9:16:51 GMT -5 creator said:

Dec 26, 2011 23:25:35 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

You'll have to tell me / show me when in the last decade he has repeatedly used Mjolnir to go invisible, or intangible or transmute the air around someone in to chains as the last Thor comic I collected was 3 yrs ago.

Thor is limited by plot. It's why in recent books he can universe hop simply because he is a god, have a conversation with Alter-Ego with a fragment of his life essence convincing him to stop his madness while shattering multiple mountain sized segments of Ego from entering the Earth and in another book literally use the Astral Plane to reveal he can take you into various alternate futures to give you a global warming PSA or just super charge Mjolnir by commanding it to return and punch a hole through an individual.

Then we have to disagree here.
I don't think a power used very occasionally over 5 decades, but not actually employed by Thor in the last 10 years is valid because he has had encounters where he did not employ them despite grave need. Again I cite his battle against the false Destroyer as a clear example. He was on the receiving end of some devasting blows and yet failed to use matter manipulation to turn it in to something else or use his magnetic powers to immobilise it.

Last ten years might be a little bit of a stretch, he was mentioning his divine trans-formative energies as recently as Iron Man Thor #4:
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2139655-mattermanipulationstillthere1.jpg
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2139656-mattermanipulationstillthere2.jpg
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2139657-mattermanipulationstillthere3.jpg
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2139658-mattermanipulationstillthere4.jpg
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2139659-mattermanipulationstillthere5.jpg

And to an extent his return was heralded by remaking his fellow Asgardians after their deaths, a process he repeats with Lock.
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2139653-lokitransmutation.jpg
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2139654-lokitransmutation2.jpg
Even if you don't consider any of this transmutation, it still works well with "Thor is just as much of a plot device as he was decades ago".

And even then he seemingly fails to use them even under these circumstances with any regularity.
He's a warrior who has been faced with life and death decisions.
Here is another example. In his battle with the Thing and Hulk, when they were possessed and empowered by the Serpent, whey did he not use his hammer to cancel out their magics and render them weaker.......
How about turning the air around them in to chains.....
What about going intangible to help himself win the battle as 2 on 1 is unfair odds and he was taking serious damage in the battle.
These range of once a decade powers are only used when a writer recalls that he used something like them once 15 years ago.
That's why I focus on his attributed regular use powers as they are also easier to quantify.

Worthy Thing was effectively destroyed by Thor in moments during their fight:
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2035605-fi5oroboroscps005.jpg
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2035606-fi5oroboroscps006.jpg
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2035607-fi5oroboroscps012.jpg
media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/2035608-fi5oroboroscps013.jpg
The Thing spent the rest of the fight bleeding to death till Franklin undid the Serpent's mojo and restored him to his normal state. What doesn't make much sense was Thor not repeating this maneuver with the Hulk and deciding to simply smash his face in for a few pages till the space/time gash wound exhausts him enough to send the Hulk into orbit rather then continuously beat on Nul.

And I doubt chains would hold either of them down.

I don't think that Sentry or the Silver Surfer (without drawing hugely on external energies) are stronger than him. His durability is such that he takes punches from Sentry, from Hulk, from Hercules, from Gladiator and continues but not without some level of damage, even if it is relatively minor (bad bruising equivalent). But these are all his peers in strength.
This takes me back to the argument that WW is significantly stronger than him. Her routine strength appears to be around an order of magnitude greater (at least) than his. I don't recall Thor getting hit regularly by an opponent 10x stronger and able to deliver dozens of punches a second with precision that can focus on a body's weak points, a feat she has shown many times.

I'd agree wholeheartedly with neither of them being physically stronger than Thor, albeit the only times I saw the Sentry do any damage was when the Void was in control amping him to hell. Outside that one punch from Thor BFRed him. Although given the Surfer was able to stop Mjolnir mid swing on physical strength alone(his two hands vs Thor's one) and the beating he was giving the Hulk on base stats alone on Sakaar, he isn't physically too far off at current levels post annihilation. And given Thor not holding back floored Gladiator I'd also say he is significantly stronger than him too. The Hulk fights never make any sense. Fighting folks that are physically stronger or vastly above his own power is something the character regularly does and usually pulls wins off to boot. (He'll I'd bring up Odin hopping into the Destroyer, wielding the Odin Sword and proceeding to pummel Thor, then banish him, but I'm unsure if it's canon).

And this is why I draw on the fact of them operating in character.
He does hold back, more often than not and won't employ his hammers more deadly abilities straight away.
Her written history indicates she will use the lasso to incapacitate an opponent far more readily because it does no damage. It's a non lethal attack mode.
Even putting aside the hypnosis / control power she has displayed occasionally via the lasso since her precrisis days, she could still win via the Once and For All rules via incapacitation. 

I'd agree, Thor holding back has the awful habit of getting knocked around and losses to folks he can steamroll with any effort. Then in another issue he goes up against folks that devour pantheons (wonder how his reunion with his half brother in Mighty Thor 9 will pan out) or are the embodiment of pantheons like Glory. So it's very much on the table she can floor him if he starts off with his usual mentality and doesn't decide to let loose after getting hit and realizing she can hurt him.

Oh and Superman would kick his ass

By dialing it up to 11? Then get a beat down from Hercules, She Hulk and Iron Man!

[Beatboks]

Dec 28, 2011 13:09:29 GMT -5 creator said:

Dec 28, 2011 6:55:07 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

I forfeit/ withdraw from debate, consider it a birthday present (don't say I never give you anything). So one less Thor fanboy to worry about

It's alright Creator, I knew Hellos or Ckal would take up the baton.
Oh and I forgot to mention I said "beings who are stronger, faster, with vastly greater powers at their disposal" the underlined is what I was referring to with SS and Sentry (sorry for not being clearer)