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Post by Strafe Prower on Oct 29, 2012 21:15:36 GMT -5
he trained Hawkeye, who is a H2H embarassment, This is simpily false.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 30, 2012 0:37:45 GMT -5
he trained Hawkeye, who is a H2H embarassment, This is simpily false. Every issue of Hawkeye disagrees with you. So does every other issue except one panel with Iron Fist where he is massaging Clint's balls.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 30, 2012 0:42:46 GMT -5
I think Dum Dum would give Falcon trouble in a purely H2H battle. Hydra goons are nothing but fodder. I don't think any hero has ever had trouble with them. I doubt they are even trained beyond basic military. As far as Captain American's ability to train is concerned, he trained Hawkeye, who is a H2H embarassment, Wonder Man as you mentioned, and Spider-Man. Spider-Man did not consider himself a trained fighter until well after Captain's training under Shang Chi. So while Captain America is a top tier fighter, he seems to be nearly worthless as a trainer. Harsh. Cap is only as good as the student I think. Well we already know he is a very competent fighter himself. There just seems to be some kind of barrier when it comes to teaching others. Maybe his physical perfection is the problem. What he finds easy, everyone else finds impossible?
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Post by Strafe Prower on Oct 30, 2012 1:01:12 GMT -5
Every issue of Hawkeye disagrees with you. So does every other issue except one panel with Iron Fist where he is massaging Clint's balls. If you are reffering to the new Hawkeye series, Fraction's writing is questionable. That's also false. Defeating Batroc, Zaran, Mockingbird, and others doesn't make him an embaressment. He is actually quite adept in H2H fighting. Don't believe me? Look below. thecomicsledger.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=respect&action=display&thread=565
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 30, 2012 1:18:48 GMT -5
Batroc was clearly a superior fighter in both encounters. The first time, he basically challenged Hawkeye to test his jaw, which cost him the win and the second time, Hawkeye did not even beat him in H2H. Clint clued Batroc's feet to the floor and while Batroc was still processing this, Clint sucker punched Batroc until he passed out. Both are not honest H2H victories in my opinion. They were laced with factors.
He did not out H2H Zaran either and Mockingbird was sparring with him. She is not going to beat the shit out of the guy she is banging.
I actually did check the respect thread and while it does have some nice feats, none of these nice feats are H2H.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 30, 2012 1:23:33 GMT -5
Fraction's writing is fine. I think what is questionable is a pack full of trick arrows and those being relevant on just about any Avengers adventure. Fraction limits Clint to what Clint should realistically be and even then, he pads Clint's ability.
Seriously, the notion that the guy that gives Captain America trouble would have any kind of difficulty with Clint in a H2H fight is insane.
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Post by Strafe Prower on Oct 30, 2012 3:04:57 GMT -5
Batroc was clearly a superior fighter in both encounters. The first time, he basically challenged Hawkeye to test his jaw, which cost him the win and the second time, Hawkeye did not even beat him in H2H. Clint clued Batroc's feet to the floor and while Batroc was still processing this, Clint sucker punched Batroc until he passed out. Both are not honest H2H victories in my opinion. They were laced with factors. He did not out H2H Zaran either and Mockingbird was sparring with him. She is not going to beat the shit out of the guy she is banging. I actually did check the respect thread and while it does have some nice feats, none of these nice feats are H2H. What? In no way is Batroc impressive in either incounter. Hawkeye used Batroc's confidence against him in the first encounter. There is no other factors there. The second one is not what I was referring too. He lands hits on Zaran every time they meet, yet Zaran can not land a hit. Clint toys with him. That is not the only encounter they have had. They have fought a total of 4 times if I'm not mistaken, and Clint has held his own every time, save for their encounter in Reunion. He's a distance fighter. He very seldom has to use his H2H skills, but he does have them. Saying he is an emaressment to H2H is not true. Fraction's writing is fine. I think what is questionable is a pack full of trick arrows and those being relevant on just about any Avengers adventure. Fraction limits Clint to what Clint should realistically be and even then, he pads Clint's ability. Seriously, the notion that the guy that gives Captain America trouble would have any kind of difficulty with Clint in a H2H fight is insane. The different types of arrows have allowed him to take down opponents on a powerhouse level. He has always been a threat while on the Avengers. Fraction basically making him a poor man's Green Arrow is not justifiable in any way. He's getting taken down by fodder in the book, when he has taken out many opponents H2H without problems his entire career. Considering the fact that he has defeated opponents that Cap has struggled with on multiple occasions, I don't see the problem here.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 30, 2012 13:03:49 GMT -5
What? In no way is Batroc impressive in either incounter. Hawkeye used Batroc's confidence against him in the first encounter. There is no other factors there. Not impressive? I think I agree with you but for very different reasons. One being that working Hawkeye over is in no way an impressive feat. In their first encounter, Batroc was kicking Hawkeye all over the damn place. Hawkeye was only able to hit him twice and counter once and two out of three of those didn't even hurt Batroc. Batroc took Hawkeye to the point that Hawkeye didn't even have the energy to ATTEMPT blocks or counters. If Batroc didn't literally ask for Hawkeye to take a free shot, Hawkeye would not have walked away from that fight at all. Factor: Given free punch. Second fight Batroc didn't do much but neither did Hawkeye. He only won because he glued Batroc's feet to the ground. Factor: Prevented Batroc from being able to effectively fight. Hawkeye lands a hit every time they meet? If you are talking about every time they meet in that one fight on your respect thread, he only hit Zaran once... and after he blinded him with a smoke bomb. Factor: Smoke bomb prevented Zaran from being able to see. But besides that, Batroc seems to give Zaran's skill no real credit, so why should we? I'll change my mind when Clint shows actual skill against credible fighters without factoring it up. Great. Where are these feats? Typing this sentence really didn't make you stop and consider your argument?
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Post by creator on Oct 30, 2012 20:58:30 GMT -5
I also think that Batroc is a significantly better fighter than Hawkeye. Hawkeye is skilled compared to say Falcon (I use him as reference because we have recently discussed him) but Batroc is another level. Sorry Strafe.
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Post by Strafe Prower on Oct 30, 2012 21:04:21 GMT -5
I also think that Batroc is a significantly better fighter than Hawkeye. Hawkeye is skilled compared to say Falcon (I use him as reference because we have recently discussed him) but Batroc is another level. Sorry Strafe. I actually agree that Batroc is the better fighter, but not by a large margin. My point is that Hawkeye is not "An embaressment to H2H"
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Post by Strafe Prower on Oct 30, 2012 21:15:26 GMT -5
Not impressive? I think I agree with you but for very different reasons. One being that working Hawkeye over is in no way an impressive feat. In their first encounter, Batroc was kicking Hawkeye all over the damn place. Hawkeye was only able to hit him twice and counter once and two out of three of those didn't even hurt Batroc. Batroc took Hawkeye to the point that Hawkeye didn't even have the energy to ATTEMPT blocks or counters. If Batroc didn't literally ask for Hawkeye to take a free shot, Hawkeye would not have walked away from that fight at all. Factor: Given free punch. I'm actually baffled at this. The whole time Hawkeye was being "worked over", he explains what he is actually doing in the thought boxes. He was in no way out of energy, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to walk or land the last punch that knocked out Batroc. I also don't see where Batroc gave him a free punch. He headbuts Clint and then Clint KO's him. Simple. Once again, I was not referencing this. I know it has little to no baring on hand to hand abilities. Considering Zaran was in the both of the Batroc fights, no. I don't think Zaran's skills are much, as he is an embaressment to H2H, but Clint is consistently better. .....since when are Batroc, Mockingbird, US Agent, and the many others he has fought not credible fighters? Fighting the Hand, fighting multiple enemies in an elevator, one-shotting fodder, etc. The writing that Fraction has presented has shown little for his knowledge of Clint's personality and abilities. Period. When he can fight credible fighters (Sometimes with the bow granted), no. He is far from an embaressment to hand to hand combat and stating so is just false. If that statement were true, he would have died long ago.
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Post by creator on Oct 30, 2012 21:15:47 GMT -5
I actually agree that Batroc is the better fighter, but not by a large margin. My point is that Hawkeye is not "An embaressment to H2H" I agree. I don't think he is an 'embarrassment' but as far above the Falcon he s, I think Batroc is that same distance above him.
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Post by Strafe Prower on Oct 30, 2012 21:18:47 GMT -5
I actually agree that Batroc is the better fighter, but not by a large margin. My point is that Hawkeye is not "An embaressment to H2H" I agree. I don't think he is an 'embarrassment' but as far above the Falcon he s, I think Batroc is that same distance above him. I don't necesarily agree, but I don't feel like debating the same points against you LOL. Now to get back on-topic
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 31, 2012 0:36:42 GMT -5
I'm actually baffled at this. The whole time Hawkeye was being "worked over", he explains what he is actually doing in the thought boxes. He was in no way out of energy, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to walk or land the last punch that knocked out Batroc. I also don't see where Batroc gave him a free punch. He headbuts Clint and then Clint KO's him. Simple. You are mistaken. Batroc headbuts Hawkeye, then dares him to take a shot. He gave Hawkeye plenty of time to wind it up too. "No! NO! Don't fall down yet, Hawkeye! I haven't finished punishing you! You can take one more shot, can't you? CAN'T YOU?!" You don't see the free shot in there? How can you not? He literally is daring Hawkeye to take one. And you think that Hawkeye could have blocked/countered kick after kick but chose not to? Characters find the energy all the time after they have "run out". And I am sorry but his thoughts of "I can't run until I settle things" and "I need to direct the fight away from civilians" is not a plan to take blow after blow in order to get in the perfect shot. If Zaran's skills are not much, why bring him up at all? Batroc is a credible fighter. Clint won with factors in that. Mockingbird was a sparring partner, not a real combatant. If we do not bother using Captain America vs Shang-Chi sparring sessions or Batman vs Wonder Woman sparring sessions as credible fights to measure skill, why would we here? Hand ninjas are not credible fighters. Everyone beats them. EVERYONE. Beating up multiple enemies on an elevator of unknown skill... so fodder. One shotting fodder. None of these are credible feats. There is not a single hero I am even aware of that can't take out fodder, barring heroes with limiting disabilities. So I suppose I should have been more clear. Where are these feats that actually matter? I also don't think Fraction has shown little knowledge of Clint's personality and ability and if he has, he has only failed at continuing to make an irrelevant character, irrelevant. OH I WENT THERE!!! Hydra Bob is still alive and he has probably seen just as much crazy shit as Hawkeye. Besides, Hawkeye did die a long time ago. Hawkeye has yet to actually do anything to prove that he is not a H2H embarrassment where it regards comic book characters. Is he on Hydra Bob's level? No but there is nothing to indicate that Hawkeye can hold his own against any credible fighter without his arrows. So I do not believe it is false. He is an embarrassment when you consider the training he is supposed to have.
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Post by Strafe Prower on Oct 31, 2012 1:11:23 GMT -5
You are mistaken. Batroc headbuts Hawkeye, then dares him to take a shot. He gave Hawkeye plenty of time to wind it up too. "No! NO! Don't fall down yet, Hawkeye! I haven't finished punishing you! You can take one more shot, can't you? CAN'T YOU?!" You don't see the free shot in there? How can you not? He literally is daring Hawkeye to take one. And you think that Hawkeye could have blocked/countered kick after kick but chose not to? Characters find the energy all the time after they have "run out". And I am sorry but his thoughts of "I can't run until I settle things" and "I need to direct the fight away from civilians" is not a plan to take blow after blow in order to get in the perfect shot. I think you are miss reading teh context here. Batroc was showing errogance, but he wasn't giving him a free shot. Saying so is a bit far fetched IMO. Hawkeye has played dead, taken bullets, and many other things for the sake of his plans. I don't see this being any different. I think that is called formulating a plan. If he realized those 2 things, the next logical step is how to do both, but gain an advantage. Simple strategic thinking is something Hawkeye is more than capable of. It was more so a comparrison in my mind to someone who is actually an embaressment, despite having claims of mastering martial arts. There is a HUGE difference between Clint and Zaran. I still disagree with the batroc thing, but I doubt I'm going to convince you. He has defeated her outside of Sparring sessions as well. I would provide links, but I don't have scans anymore :/ I was referencing instances where he took out multiple enemies that were fodder, and in the hundereds at that. That was said to prove that Fraction doesn't have a damn clue about Clint's abilities, personality, tendancies, etc. Also, the last part is ignored Hydra Bob is a comedic character, so it's not nearly the same sitaution. Not to mention that Clint would one-shot him. It seems that you have an opinion that I won't be able to change. It's sad though, as I thought I had finally gotten Hawkeye some credit.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 31, 2012 1:27:55 GMT -5
I think you are miss reading teh context here. Batroc was showing errogance, but he wasn't giving him a free shot. Saying so is a bit far fetched IMO. Hawkeye has played dead, taken bullets, and many other things for the sake of his plans. I don't see this being any different. I think that is called formulating a plan. If he realized those 2 things, the next logical step is how to do both, but gain an advantage. Simple strategic thinking is something Hawkeye is more than capable of. I understand the context. I just don't think it matters at all. Daring someone to attempt a punch is no less a dare if you think the opponent is incapable of delivering it. I think you are just reading too much into Hawkeye. It never says any of what you are saying. In fact, Hawkeye seemed just as surprised by his victory as I am. You also presume Hawkeye is capable of taking the next logical step when in that very fight, he mockingly denies that course of action by saying he is, "... no Spock.". Nowhere does Hawkeye indicate that taking an ass-beating is all part of his plan. He got a lucky shot in. That is all. If Batroc had not intentionally given Hawkeye that opportunity, Hawkeye would likely have died. Be that as it may, you still brought Zaran up as a noteworthy win in one of your previous posts. What is the issue? Well he never really took out any Hand ninja. He struck a few and fell back in ranks with vastly superior heroes. Outside of that, Hawkeye didn't really perform. Would you like me to find you a better example? You can't change it with the current evidence, no. But if you bring fights to light that fall within the constraints of what I find credible, it would be taken into account.
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Post by Matezoide on Oct 31, 2012 11:15:51 GMT -5
I sincerely think Armless Tigerman should be higher ranked. media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/11352/1253936-fvcs6.jpgNow, i know taking down armed cannon-fodder is nothing impressive, but the thing is, his current placement is for skill-less characters.....the likes of Kick-Ass and Human Torch would be unable to do something like that without their powers. Sure his teeth helped, but not being tagged at all (you can see spears) puts him above rank 2 IMO. Unless theres some sort of hidden context in that scan that i am missing. EDIT: No pictures that stretch the window.
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Post by creator on Oct 31, 2012 17:32:02 GMT -5
I sincerely think Armless Tigerman should be higher ranked. media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/11352/1253936-fvcs6.jpgNow, i know taking down armed cannon-fodder is nothing impressive, but the thing is, his current placement is for skill-less characters.....the likes of Kick-Ass and Human Torch would be unable to do something like that without their powers. Sure his teeth helped, but not being tagged at all (you can see spears) puts him above rank 2 IMO. Unless theres some sort of hidden context in that scan that i am missing. EDIT: No pictures that stretch the window. Do we have any more examples for him? If the picture is to be believed he would need to be up around rank 8 at least.
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Post by Strafe Prower on Oct 31, 2012 20:58:01 GMT -5
I think you are miss reading teh context here. Batroc was showing errogance, but he wasn't giving him a free shot. Saying so is a bit far fetched IMO. Hawkeye has played dead, taken bullets, and many other things for the sake of his plans. I don't see this being any different. I think that is called formulating a plan. If he realized those 2 things, the next logical step is how to do both, but gain an advantage. Simple strategic thinking is something Hawkeye is more than capable of. I understand the context. I just don't think it matters at all. Daring someone to attempt a punch is no less a dare if you think the opponent is incapable of delivering it. I think you are just reading too much into Hawkeye. It never says any of what you are saying. In fact, Hawkeye seemed just as surprised by his victory as I am. You also presume Hawkeye is capable of taking the next logical step when in that very fight, he mockingly denies that course of action by saying he is, "... no Spock.". Nowhere does Hawkeye indicate that taking an ass-beating is all part of his plan. He got a lucky shot in. That is all. If Batroc had not intentionally given Hawkeye that opportunity, Hawkeye would likely have died. Be that as it may, you still brought Zaran up as a noteworthy win in one of your previous posts. What is the issue? Well he never really took out any Hand ninja. He struck a few and fell back in ranks with vastly superior heroes. Outside of that, Hawkeye didn't really perform. Would you like me to find you a better example? You can't change it with the current evidence, no. But if you bring fights to light that fall within the constraints of what I find credible, it would be taken into account. I don't think we are going to come to an agreement, so I'll just choos to agree to disagree. Good debate.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 31, 2012 21:57:59 GMT -5
I don't think we are going to come to an agreement, so I'll just choos to agree to disagree. Good debate. I think it would be better if you just agreed with me. Why have an individual opinion when you can have mine?
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