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Post by ckal on Sept 30, 2011 16:51:13 GMT -5
Yeah that guys seriously needs to gtfo.
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Post by Morpheus on Sept 30, 2011 17:08:54 GMT -5
@ creator - I am not familiar with most of the weaponry included as examples in the grid, so I am prone to make a mistake or another by proposing ranks. I can rank characters in comparison to one another, but not place them without some additional information.
Marvel was claiming his reaction time was x15 when he pulled off the feat I mentioned.
I believe they want to scale him back in terms of how his stats sound, not how he's actually written. I don't believe a writer will think to himself "hmm, he's 15 times faster but not 25 times faster so I won't write him doing X feat".
It's quite possible that plenty of his feats contradict the established handbook entries, but I honestly try not to overthink it, not only for Spider-Man, but pretty much every street level character who actually dodges bullets after they have been fired as opposed to moving too fast for the shooter to properly aim. Kind of like "go with the flow". I can't say if my way is the right one, but I just accept a few things for the sake of it, as long as the characters have proven they can do it on a regular basis.
He said he had purged the poison from his blood, but I don't recall if he said he purged it all, or he was nearly done purging it. It's a great feat, either way.
And yeah, bad artwork.
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Post by creator on Sept 30, 2011 17:19:37 GMT -5
@morph: Okay so if we are assuming Marvel just wanted to scale Parker back a bit and 15 is the norm now, what about that bullet dodging feat you mentioned? A bullet (I am assuming it is from a standard pistol for the sake of simplicity) travels at 700mph. If it were aimed at the center of his head, he would have to move his head one way or another by approximately 3 inches at the very least. Now if he made this decision to move his head when the bullet is only 1 or 2 inches from impact......... would that not make his reaction speed 1050-1400mph? Creator, you should probably check my math Mr. Scientist. The image of this dodge is attached. If we assume that the bullet is just 2 inches away from Spiderman's back and he has to move out of the way, he would need to move approx 6 inches (just under half the width of his body) to avoid it. If we also assume that the bullet is travelling at 700mph (313 meters per second), then Spiderman would need to move at 2100 mph to get out of its way. Anyhow I think the bullet is further away than 2 inches. I'm working on the image now to try and calculate the distance of the bullet from Spiderman now Attachments:
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Post by Morpheus on Sept 30, 2011 17:22:20 GMT -5
Good looking out, creator, that is the feat I had in mind.
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Post by creator on Sept 30, 2011 18:30:07 GMT -5
ok using some heroic maths based on the following, - The size of the bullet as it appears to leave the gun
- The size of the bullet as Spidey starts to dodge
- The size of the bullet as it passes under Spidey's arm
- The size of a bullet from a 0.45 caliber handgun (as a basis for actual size)
this suggests that the bullet is approx 1 ft from Spidey. Yes there is about a 30% margin for error based on this calculation due to errors in measurement and the gun caliber estimation. If the 1 ft is about right, then to dodge the bullet now means that Spidey only needs to move at 350 mph which seems a lot more likely for him (rather than 2000+ mph). That would mean that this is a rank 13 feat.
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 30, 2011 19:11:56 GMT -5
ok using some heroic maths based on the following, - The size of the bullet as it appears to leave the gun
- The size of the bullet as Spidey starts to dodge
- The size of the bullet as it passes under Spidey's arm
- The size of a bullet from a 0.45 caliber handgun (as a basis for actual size)
this suggests that the bullet is approx 1 ft from Spidey. Yes there is about a 30% margin for error based on this calculation due to errors in measurement and the gun caliber estimation. If the 1 ft is about right, then to dodge the bullet now means that Spidey only needs to move at 350 mph which seems a lot more likely for him (rather than 2000+ mph). That would mean that this is a rank 13 feat.
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Post by creator on Sept 30, 2011 20:21:43 GMT -5
LOL
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 30, 2011 21:28:53 GMT -5
Due to Wolverine's fights with Spider-Man, one could say that while obviously not as fast, he could be speeds that approach his level.
Wolverine has also dodged point blank machine gun fire to the point that it looked like he disappeared. This happened all the time during his Madripoor days when his healing factor was little more than accelerated healing.
He has been shown to tag Spider-Man often, and can move his arms faster than an entire group of mafia men can even see when they were looking right at him. Which made his cuts so fast, the guns he cut did not even initially fall apart.
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Post by creator on Oct 1, 2011 10:22:10 GMT -5
Due to Wolverine's fights with Spider-Man, one could say that while obviously not as fast, he could be speeds that approach his level. Wolverine has also dodged point blank machine gun fire to the point that it looked like he disappeared. This happened all the time during his Madripoor days when his healing factor was little more than accelerated healing. He has been shown to tag Spider-Man often, and can move his arms faster than an entire group of mafia men can even see when they were looking right at him. Which made his cuts so fast, the guns he cut did not even initially fall apart. Let's check out a few scans and see how they pan out.
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Oct 1, 2011 10:55:40 GMT -5
The first image is pre crisis so I would put that one aside. In the sequence, it looks like he got touched by the bolt (but it did not pass through him). But I can accept him dodging it. After all he does stuff no other MA can do or has done. Where do you think he belongs on the grid ? In terms of the grid. I should put him between 16 and 18, max 19. The lightning looks to be close to him, while he dodges it. So maybe 17? Unless someone else can give a different number on a better reason.
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Post by creator on Oct 1, 2011 12:42:44 GMT -5
In terms of the grid. I should put him between 16 and 18, max 19. The lightning looks to be close to him, while he dodges it. So maybe 17? Unless someone else can give a different number on a better reason. The image showed the lightning bolt coming from a long distance away but I accept that the dodge was only just made, the bolt just missing him. I agree that a rank of 16 for this feat would be the minimum. Rather than base Karate Kid's reaction speed on just 1 instance, do we have any more examples of his reaction speed ?
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Oct 1, 2011 12:52:09 GMT -5
I haven't read much Legion of Superheroes. But if it helps. Crisis on Infinite Earths didn't effect the state of the 31st century. It was Zero Hour. And I don't think it changed much. So the other scan can still count. Because I believe it was near Great Darkness Saga which is still canon.
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Post by creator on Oct 1, 2011 15:53:47 GMT -5
I haven't read much Legion of Superheroes. But if it helps. Crisis on Infinite Earths didn't effect the state of the 31st century. It was Zero Hour. And I don't think it changed much. So the other scan can still count. Because I believe it was near Great Darkness Saga which is still canon. The change post crisis was in power level. Superman was down graded and likewise so were his contemporaries like Mon'el and Ultraboy. Overall there was a generic power level drop. That's hy I said it might not be applicable.
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Post by creator on Oct 3, 2011 6:43:13 GMT -5
@ creator - I am not familiar with most of the weaponry included as examples in the grid, so I am prone to make a mistake or another by proposing ranks. I can rank characters in comparison to one another, but not place them without some additional information. Ok, then lets put the following characters in the list order of their reaction speed (low to high) and we can then look to see if they have feats that support their positioning, which will in turn provide the evidence to actually rank them. So lets start with the proposed list below, Iron Fist Nightwing Daredevil Batman Capt America (Rogers) Deathstroke Spiderman Thor Hulk Superman Wonder Woman Flash (Allen) GL (Jordan) Thing Wolverine Cyclops Mr Fantastic Iron Man Quicksilver Orion Dr Strange Luke Cage Midnighter Silver Surfer Wonder Man Hyperion (712 universe) Gladiator (Kallark) Moon Knight Hawkeye Shiva Namor Longshot Colossus Juggernaut Beast Rhino Abomination Cyborg Hourman
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Oct 3, 2011 6:56:21 GMT -5
I'd say people like Shiva, Cassandra Cain, Bronze Tiger level are bullet time speeds. I don't have the image before this. So I don't know the gun that's firing it. However, the bullet seems pretty close to her and she covers a lot of ground when the bullet makes contact with the boxes behind her. Maybe Morph will have the scan of the previous panels. There is another scan of Bronze Tiger dodging bullets. I think Entropy might have that.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 3, 2011 12:10:26 GMT -5
Wonder Woman has stated that she is faster than Superman in reaction speed and Batman confirmed this.
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Post by creator on Oct 3, 2011 13:13:12 GMT -5
Wonder Woman has stated that she is faster than Superman in reaction speed and Batman confirmed this. Eric, wasn't the reason that she is meant to be faster is not based on raw speed but the fact that she reacts instinctively ?
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 3, 2011 13:19:22 GMT -5
Wonder Woman has stated that she is faster than Superman in reaction speed and Batman confirmed this. Eric, wasn't the reason that she is meant to be faster is not based on raw speed but the fact that she reacts instinctively ? Yes but I relate that to reaction speed largely due to Batman's examples. He used some olympic runner vs Bruce Lee or some other super fast fighter and asked Superman who he thought was "faster".
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Post by creator on Oct 3, 2011 13:26:14 GMT -5
I'd say people like Shiva, Cassandra Cain, Bronze Tiger level are bullet time speeds. I don't have the image before this. So I don't know the gun that's firing it. However, the bullet seems pretty close to her and she covers a lot of ground when the bullet makes contact with the boxes behind her. Maybe Morph will have the scan of the previous panels. There is another scan of Bronze Tiger dodging bullets. I think Entropy might have that. Shiva certainly seems very fast just based on the bullet position and how far she has moved in that time. Like you understand we could really do with knowing the basic gun type, even if it's just a pistol etc. Has she dodged bullets (or blocked them) on other occasions ?
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Oct 3, 2011 14:49:41 GMT -5
I'm not sure. I've only read the first 6/7 issues of Batgirl. Morph might be able to say more.
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