Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 2, 2013 22:06:08 GMT -5
as to the psychological warfare aspects. taking advantage of the acoustics of certain rooms like saloon hals seting up so that sounds draw attention when entered. setting up moving pieces to only move when an area is entered ( even mirrors on chains etc activated when a door is open) all making your team more reflexive and reactive looking to a deversion and tedirecting attention away from the trap. You mentioned hiw Rambo had a junke to use but your forgettting that there is a lot more to use in buildings. there areactual mechanisms in locks, hinges, glass, mirrors, processed refined and shaped metals and ores, worked wood and even possibly tools ( there would have to be a blacksmith so likely a furnace they're to big to cart away most of the time). how about for a team split up motif there is a set up to make a sound at A when one of your guys is a B witha ricoche point set up from C so your guy at shoots and kills your guy at A. Mind games so that a piece of one of your teams uniforms is torn off and placed a trap as though they set it up to undermine your teams confidence in each other and mistrust each other
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Post by Dane on Feb 2, 2013 22:20:37 GMT -5
Just off topic: You do know if a character dies in enemy territory they will respawn at base, whereas they will not if they are in their own territory yes? I'm going to assume you will not contest the black safe or my own. Here's the way I see it: Nikita is moving steathily (read: slow) while Six and Solo stay at base. So, you're sending Gabe and/or Matrix into the Junkyard. A) They march in at full speed and we have a 5 vs 2 decidedly in my favor. B) They wait until I've come and gone before they go for their gear. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either stealth or speed, can't have both. You can lose those men and give me free reign over the guns or just give me free reign over the guns. I don't mind which. Here's how I'll do this. I can't open your safe but I can certainly find it. Once I have, it doesn't take a genius to figure out if theres a red and blue safe and we only have the blue card, then someone else has the red card. From our safe alone we get 2 Claymores and 1 lb of Semtex. We have all around us junkyard cars. We'll put your safe in the back of the trunk of one of the cards along with 2 primed Claymores (one facing the boot opening and one facing the backseat in case you try to get cute.) and 1 lb of Semtex. You open the boot to get your goods and you lose that teammate. Permanently. You might get your loot eventually but you won't get it for free. This also means I get the black safe gear since you've split your team and can't contest it. I will equip my team like this: Hawk Equipment: Kevlar VestSIG P226Mossberg 590 Shotgun (extended clip) 1 Frag Grenade 1 Smoke GrenadeCRK Green Beret Combat KnifeSteel HatchetFirst Aid SprayGas MaskKevlar Rope (Black) Wireless CommRoadblock Equipment: Kevlar VestDesert EagleFN SCAR-H Assault Rifle (extended clip, ACOG Scope) 1 Frag Grenade1 Flashbang1 Smoke Grenade1 lb of C4Busse TGLB Combat KnifeWireless CommChuckles Equipment: Walther P991 Flashbang1 Sticky GrenadeSOG Seal 2000 Combat KnifeWireless CommFlint Equipment: Kevlar VestSA Operator Custom 1911HK 416 Assault Rifle (extended clip, holographic sight) 2 Sticky Grenades1 lb of Semtex1 Frag Grenade2 FlashbangsThrowing KnifeStrider MT-SS Combat Knife (Adamantium) Gas MaskWireless CommLowlight Equipment: Kevlar VestCompound Bow w/ ArrowsBarrett M107A1 .50 Sniper RifleHK MK231 Smoke Grenade3 Bouncing BettiesFallkniven A1 Combat KnifeWireless CommOnce I've got my equipment I will send Hawk, Roadblock and Chuckles forward toward your base while sending Flint and Lowlight (arguably my fastest characters) at top speed back to my base. Unless Nikita is running, she won't beat them back, and if she is running she won't beat the .338 Magnum round that Lowlight sends through her brain. Either way, Flint and Lowlight will be back in time to rig our flag with enough proximity-triggered explosives to blow her or anyone else to kingdom come. Your turn.
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Post by Dane on Feb 2, 2013 22:25:50 GMT -5
There is about a dozen things that have to work exactly as you see them working for this to happen. If I programmed a computer with the variables you're talking about it would end the way you're describing it about 1 time out of every 100.
My team has to be dumb enough to execute things exactly as you say it will be executed, they aren't morons and it won't work like that. And your team has to be alive to reap any benefit, they won't be.
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Post by Dane on Feb 2, 2013 22:51:02 GMT -5
For Nikita:
"Move slowly. A sniper counts his movement progress by feet and inches." -US Sniper Field Training Manual, 1994.
Your average British soldier's quick march is 140 paces per minute, at 30 inches per pace that's 140*30*60 = 252000 inches per hour or 3.977 miles per hour.
If you want to say a person moving a few inches at a time will beat someone moving at a quick march, that's your prerogative. But it has absolutely no basis in reality.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 2, 2013 22:54:08 GMT -5
Speed isn't my issue here never has been. Frankly I don't care about the gear. If we find it we do if we don't we don't. Six, Nikita and Solo operate perfectly fine against armed enemies without weapons.Gabe operates against super humans or supernatural, and Matrix is perfectly capable of detecting any booby traps and mines an simply choosing not togo after the safe. My care factor about he gear or yours is nominal. we can run part way ( say half)to the junk yard and then use stealth. since een with you there first you'll be searching for the safe where Nikita will simply make he way straight through to then cross to your base. you'd have to have one hell of anhead start to have searched the junkyard found both safes booby trapped one and then send your guy's back to base before Nikita makes it. she only has to use stealth until clear of the junk yard enough and once she has she can come back at here leasure. I chose my team so they could make use of the things around them as weapons and not rely on conventional so I'm not forced to follow the scenario as set. It's not like the junk yard gives you any vantage points to snipe from so you wont get the full advantage of the range of your weapons from there. on return (or once reached) Nikita will have the advantage of a vantage point to see your guys coming she will know your exact approach path so avoiding you will be easy as she canjust take the path of least resistance. She specialisises in accessing secured facilities with specialist trained forces ans highly sophisticated security equipment. getting in and out of an old western town with no defense will be ancake walk. your guys going for my flag will not befighting my team but the terrain itself as jury rigged by them. This isn't a front door assault team meant to go in all guns blazing. Three of my team specialize in getting in acquiring a specific object or person and getting out before anyone knows they've even been. The two that arent are the ones left at the junk yard who could simply delay the progressof those going after their prize ( impede them leaving the junk yard). Success or failure of the scenario doesn't depend on actually beating the opponent in battle. it depends on securing the prize while protecting your own and at that my team is superior.
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Post by Dane on Feb 2, 2013 22:56:56 GMT -5
Um, question:
Even if she beats my team to my base, how does she get out (while apparently moving faster than my team) while carry a whopping great flag with her? It isn't the size of a pencil.
She dies.
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Post by Dane on Feb 2, 2013 22:57:46 GMT -5
Fighting nameless morons in shiny white suits isn't the same as fighting my team. Even if you ambushed my guys you would still die horribly because you're outmatched in every possible way.
You're ignoring time. The time it takes you to slowly creep to the junkyard is more than enough for me to search the junkyard, take my stuff and leave.
Ok. I'll take a few pounds of C4 and a bunch of bouncing betties guarded by a guy who never misses with a sniper rifle protecting my flag over '60s MacGuyver shining a light at people in hopes of brainwashing them. Not saying the objectives aren't important. Just saying I like what I have protecting mine a bit better.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 2, 2013 23:04:52 GMT -5
Your perfectly right about a sniper. the thing is, to snipe requires a gun and a scope. I have neither therfore simplymgetting into position waiting for the right shot ( which is exactly what i used to do as a rifle specialist) isn't what I'm doing. I'm only seeking to get safely to an end objective. My progress will be slower but not as slow as what you suggest. Also asmto the ine scenario 1 in 100 let's not forget six specialises in manipulating people to act as he wants. that in and of itself vastly inproves the odds
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 2, 2013 23:08:30 GMT -5
In answer to your question anflag is a piece of cloth that can be folded and tucked in her clohes.'only a moron would take the pole that is never required in a captue the flag war game.
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Post by Dane on Feb 2, 2013 23:08:45 GMT -5
Your perfectly right about a sniper. the thing is, to snipe requires a gun and a scope. I have neither therfore simplymgetting into position waiting for the right shot ( which is exactly what i used to do as a rifle specialist) isn't what I'm doing. I'm only seeking to get safely to an end objective. My progress will be slower but not as slow as what you suggest. Also asmto the ine scenario 1 in 100 let's not forget six specialises in manipulating people to act as he wants. that in and of itself vastly inproves the odds The problem I'm still having with Six manipulating people is that this isn't The View. He isn't going to be talking to them like he did in The Prisoner. In that show he had a lot of time and access to his enemies in order to manipulate them. This isn't the same thing.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 2, 2013 23:14:21 GMT -5
oh and lets not forget the guy's in white suits are a) specialist meant to secure hold and break top level agents, and b) a group of super agents bent on world domination and government over throw and trained to achieve it. In other words they do these things to characters of Bond's level. I wish i could find the ep of the prisoner on Youtube where he secures a scientist from a top russian agent and then puts him under ground, it shows his full capability
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Post by Dane on Feb 2, 2013 23:15:47 GMT -5
In answer to your question anflag is a piece of cloth that can be folded and tucked in her clohes.'only a moron would take the pole that is never required in a captue the flag war game. I still don't see an answer to why she gets there faster in apparently impossible levels of stealth over someone moving at a quick march. She's either crawling to and from or she isn't. Speed or stealth, not both.
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Post by Dane on Feb 2, 2013 23:18:22 GMT -5
oh and lets not forget the guy's in white suits are a) specialist meant to secure hold and break top level agents, and b) a group of super agents bent on world domination and government over throw and trained to achieve it. In other words they do these things to characters of Bond's level. I wish i could find the ep of the prisoner on Youtube where he secures a scientist from a top russian agent and then puts him under ground, it shows his full capability Do you really believe they show skills of that level? Because I haven't seen The Prisoner in a long time but I don't remember them doing anything even remotely that good.
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Post by Dane on Feb 2, 2013 23:29:19 GMT -5
Let me put it this way, say Nikita marches to the Junkyard, then when she is a mile out she starts to crawl so she isn't spotted. That gives me time enough time to grab guns, probably with minutes to spare. Then she has to crawl another mile to stay out of visibility, which gives my team at least 2 miles where they are running and she is crawling. Even if she moved at walking speed, which is a f*cking huge if, she would still be beaten to my flag by an hour. More than enough time for them to rig the flag with pressure sensitive explosives.
2 miles at a fast crawl (let's be generous and say 1-2mph) would take her 1-2 hours. In the meantime regular soldiers with a full load move at 4mp/h. They cover 2 miles in half an hour. These guys are in much better shape and have very minimal gear. They will move much, much faster. An average soldier will take 30 minutes, these guys probably more like 10-20. These guys are in great shape. They are only carrying a rifle and a sidearm each. Jogging 2 miles is not going to be difficult for them. Jogging vs Crawling. This isn't going to be a close race. She will be beaten probably by over an hour. Certainly by at least half an hour. She has absolutely no hope of maintaining stealth and speed at the same time.
Stand up and get shot or stay crawling and get blown up.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 3, 2013 2:29:43 GMT -5
oh and lets not forget the guy's in white suits are a) specialist meant to secure hold and break top level agents, and b) a group of super agents bent on world domination and government over throw and trained to achieve it. In other words they do these things to characters of Bond's level. I wish i could find the ep of the prisoner on Youtube where he secures a scientist from a top russian agent and then puts him under ground, it shows his full capability Do you really believe they show skills of that level? Because I haven't seen The Prisoner in a long time but I don't remember them doing anything even remotely that good. If you mean in terms of the action of the show, no. But then bond movies of the mid 60's showed the same skill level of many of the characters in the show. Six was supposed to be a top level operative. highlighted most in the three eps on his past missions that showed what level he operated on. For one thing you don't send anything less than your best man to secure a scientist who has perfected the newest deadliest weapon. Six was sent after just that and countered the Russian number one agent sent to do the same. he broke orders and got the scientist under ground because he didn't want either side to have the weapon. Also some of the conversations to the operatives called in pretty much stated what level they were meant to be. These guy's were meant to hold and contain operatives like Six, and they clearly answered to the highest levels of covert authority. Why the hell would she start crawling a mile out. I'll admit until now I didn't read the OP well enough to understand the size of the battle field ( when I said half way) but I was thinking safe approach from maybe 100 20 m out. I mean come on really the three team members I'm sending are either equal to or faster than your team. Nikita carries less muscle bulk and is more supple (like a runner rather than a body builder) so would be faster and far more agile. Gabe matches and reacts to and out runs physically enhanced beings like werewolves and Vampires so is also faster. Matrix is the only one NOT faster of the three heading to the junk yard, and he would match any of your team in physicals. Now let's look at the battle field [image] Based on the image and the stated size the junk yard is about 3.33 miles wide. Each of our teams is closest to an opposite corner. So it's your assertion that your team gets there searches the whole thing finds your safe gears up and get's to a sniper point closest to the end that my team is coming from faster than my team get's near there even though their only taking caution for the last 100 or 100 meters. Cause if they don't get to the end of the junk yard closest to my team they wont even be in range to do anything with the weapons they have. Now add to that that Nikita basically moves straight on to the base of your team. Even if your guy's find the safe in the first little corner and start their spit up with three heading back to your base they are still a mile or two out of range of Nikita because of being on a potential 3 to 3.3 mile different vector ( that around 5 km's) away. The best range I'm aware of on a rifle is 1.2km. Since again she will only take to cover for the first couple hundred meters at most ( since there isn't a high vantage point in the junkyard to take advantage of the capability of some of the worlds best rifles with the right scope). Since even the fittest man alive is only going to run around 6.9m/s ( that would be a four minute mile BTW) they would need to have greater than a 5 minute advantage to even be in the outside range of the best guns around. How do you maintain that your team who is for the most part slower than mine, starting the same distance from the junk yard, with an area of over .32 square kilomerters ( that's assuming the width of the junk yard is only two meters could in fact be more) to search before finding your safe and gearing up AND getting the other safe and setting a trap with it. ALL while maintaining a 5 minute time advantage. Who's being unrealistic with time frames now? Sorry but that is just wholly and utterly inaccurate. it's 5 miles we have to cross, for a world champion Olympian that would be at least a 20 minute run not 10, and the difference of using stealth for the last 100 or 200 meters is negligible at best . secondly your guy's can't be any faster than mine because a) they have the same level of training and skill ( Matrix is basically Dutch, Nikita could match anyone else here if not exceed in physical condition, Gabe is used to out running faster opponents, and both Solo and Six are Bond - just more used to not relying on guns or in six's case anything) Your either seriously over estimating the range of a sniper rifle, underestimating the the distance of the battle field or giving your team some magical get stuff done wand that makes the impossible happen
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Post by Erik-El on Feb 3, 2013 2:41:40 GMT -5
Let's everyone keep it light and fun. Also Matrix only had one weaknesses. Just one. That was an out of shape opponent with a chainmail vest and a porno mustache.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 3, 2013 3:19:21 GMT -5
Let's everyone keep it light and fun. If this appeared to be anything but, or there is something I've said that is offensive i apologize. I always enjoy debating Dane in a tourney and this is no exception. it's just my usual hard @$$ sell my story mode in tourney's. To be honest the reason i like tourney's so much is it gives me a chance to tell a story with characters that haven't been in print ( or this case tv movies) for a while ( sometimes with some more recent). I guess that's why so often no one knows my characters
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 3, 2013 6:25:31 GMT -5
Bit more for Nikita www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySr1u6jguHQwww.youtube.com/watch?v=zpk6iSD91Q0As you'll see here one of MANY times that she NEVER leaves a man behind (this is new Division are her efforts in the first two season brought the original down) www.youtube.com/watch?v=t50OFewscqcMontage of fight scenes. here. The first fight is against her protege that she saved from assassination and then trained to be her mole inside divisions. Alex is now the best operative division has to take her on since she turned both Micheal and Burkoff to her cause. She was holding back and still takes her down. The fight on the train was against divisions best "cleaner/ assassin", the old man in the suit toward the end is the top dog head of all covert activity, master planner and manipulator. Nikita is the only one who's ever been his match. www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy-qLSPPb3w&NR=1&feature=endscreenShe's taken down seal team specialists before ( I'll find the take down soon) and can even get at the heads of intelligence with their best protection www.youtube.com/watch?v=QozoCydPMD0www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD5t3-Hq0r0&feature=endscreen&NR=1The first few will show the idea that the objective is always the priority over engaging. Getting the African leader out before the cleaner could kill him, getting hold of the dirty bomb so that division couldn't use it for their ends in the subway. the only fights she struggles in are against Micheal ( former division partner and the man she loves), Owen ( a former division operative she wants to protect) and Percy ( who she can't kill until she has his black boxes and fail safes) www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0H1z2kZFYg&feature=endscreen&NR=1
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 3, 2013 7:11:46 GMT -5
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Post by Erik-El on Feb 3, 2013 14:47:39 GMT -5
Let's everyone keep it light and fun. If this appeared to be anything but, or there is something I've said that is offensive i apologize. I always enjoy debating Dane in a tourney and this is no exception. it's just my usual hard @$$ sell my story mode in tourney's. To be honest the reason i like tourney's so much is it gives me a chance to tell a story with characters that haven't been in print ( or this case tv movies) for a while ( sometimes with some more recent). I guess that's why so often no one knows my characters It seemed like it was getting heated on both sides, honestly. But maybe that is just how aussies talk to one another, I don't know. I just want to make sure everyone WANTS to be here. Or maybe I have been out of the debate realm so long, I have forgotten what is normal, acceptable behavior...
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