Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 8, 2013 21:25:51 GMT -5
Also I've not said she gets to your base ahead of your team. All I've raid is that she is out of range when she's in the open desert. That's because you would logically. Go straight to your base ( in a straight line same as me) and therefore be a few miles north. Worst case scenario she gets to the south end of the town around the same. Time if not just before you get to the north. She then has the cover of the buildings to sneak. It's more likely she,d be a minute or so before since she would have made the 1.5 miles by the time you find your safe and start. Your not getting mines set before she gets there nor are you getting that shot.. it really winter take that long to run crouched a little along the side edge of the junk yard with cars for cover.
On a side note really getting pissed at how my table t adds full stops and changes words in my posts
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Post by Dane on Feb 8, 2013 21:30:01 GMT -5
Also I've not said she gets to your base ahead of your team. All I've raid is that she is out of range when she's in the open desert. That's because you would logically. Go straight to your base ( in a straight line same as me) and therefore be a few miles north. Worst case scenario she gets to the south end of the town around the same. Time if not just before you get to the north. She then has the cover of the buildings to sneak. It's more likely she,d be a minute or so before since she would have made the 1.5 miles by the time you find your safe and start. Your not getting mines set before she gets there nor are you getting that shot.. it really winter take that long to run crouched a little along the side edge of the junk yard with cars for cover. On a side note really getting pissed at how my table t adds full stops and changes words in my posts Well that's just it. The way I measured it out, within that time she can never be more than a few miles away from them, which means she is well within weapons range even for a regular sniper. 1.5 miles isn't far enough. The M107 has a max range of over 4 miles and an effective range of 2. Even someone running crouching (sweet lord that would be uncomfortable over 10 miles) would still be visible as moving among that ankle-high brush.
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Beatboks
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Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 8, 2013 21:53:52 GMT -5
How is it five extra miles. On the map you put the distance on items 1.5 miles across the bottom. We both start at the same time (7am) We both have a bit over five miles to cover to our closest corner of th JY ( we re in the middle of our half of the battle field and I'm not doing the. Trigonometry to work out what difference a five degree mantle makes to the 5 mile straight). By the time I m 100m out your around the same. My last bit of cautious approach may add a minute or so tops lets say 2. You admitted that you,d spend at least 15 minutes looking for the safe, items only going to take Niki at most 10 minutes to maake the 1.5 miles west at a paced march. Worst case Scenario for me she heads west of the JY 4 or 5 minutes b4 you find the safe.her position is say 2.5 to three miles south and by now a mile or two west
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Post by Dane on Feb 8, 2013 21:57:01 GMT -5
How is it five extra miles. On the map you put the distance on items 1.5 miles across the bottom. We both start at the same time (7am) We both have a bit over five miles to cover to our closest corner of th JY ( we re in the middle of our half of the battle field and I'm not doing the. Trigonometry to work out what difference a five degree mantle makes to the 5 mile straight). By the time I m 100m out your around the same. My last bit of cautious approach may add a minute or so tops lets say 2. You admitted that you,d spend at least 15 minutes looking for the safe, items only going to take Niki at most 10 minutes to maake the 1.5 miles west at a paced march. Worst case Scenario for me she heads west of the JY 4 or 5 minutes b4 you find the safe.her position is say 2.5 to three miles south and by now a mile or two west Well, she has to walk down and then across, so it's 3.3 miles further than that. Either way, 1.5 miles in 10 minutes? Holy damn. So she is moving at 9 miles an hour? Olympic world record speed being 12. But even then, even if you ignore the extra 3 miles she has to move, that puts her only 1 mile away from them still. Like I keep saying, that's weapons range. We aren't trying to tackle her, we're trying to shoot her.
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Post by Dane on Feb 8, 2013 22:01:16 GMT -5
I feel like we're talking in circles a bit. I think if there aren't anymore points to make we can call for voting soon.
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Post by Dane on Feb 9, 2013 0:53:09 GMT -5
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 9, 2013 5:31:51 GMT -5
Well, she has to walk down and then across, so it's 3.3 miles further than that. Either way, 1.5 miles in 10 minutes? Holy damn. So she is moving at 9 miles an hour? Olympic world record speed being 12. But even then, even if you ignore the extra 3 miles she has to move, that puts her only 1 mile away from them still. Like I keep saying, that's weapons range. We aren't trying to tackle her, we're trying to shoot her. She doesn't have to move any extra three miles. that's what I don't get about what your saying. Frankly her distance to the other side of the junk yard isn't much more than what you'd have to travel to find the safe. Here is what I mean www.comicvine.com/myvine/beatboks1/all-images/108-52364/trsavel_battlefield/105-2861775/The blue lines are my teams travel. The red lines yours. Assuming that our safes are somewhere in the first quarter of the junk yard that's how it plays out. If they aren't than it's going to take both of us more like an hour to find them ( it is after all 4.95 square miles or 8 square KM). As you can see there is always about 2.5 miles or 4 and a bit km between us and that is if we are making the same time. At over 4km a car which is a LOT larger than a person is a small mark on the horizon at best. When you add in things like the refraction caused by heated air distorting things you see and the affects of being in a hot desert for by now over an hour hour and half at the VERY least, no one is shooting and taking anyone out at a distance. i've said it before and it's perfectly supportable. An average athlete ( not even top level) runs at around 13 to 14 miles per hour. An average human walks at 4 Mph. An average grunt in the Australian Army is expected to be able to cover 2.4 km ( that is about 1.8 miles) in under 13 minutes. That' was what was expected from me back in the late 70's early 80's. When I made it to the S.A.S that expectation is heightened and the standard is 9 minutes. Now that mind you is with a 40pd pack of gear and weapons( that Niki wont have). She and most of the others here are at that physical level. I actually lowered the lime for the shorter distance to allow for the hot conditions. That 10 minutes is a paced and achievable time frame for a real life special forces soldier so anyone here should slaughter it. So let's see if I have this so far. 1. Your team is shooting mine on approach even though at that point they don't have weapons, are over 3 miles away, don't have scopes, and have reached their end of the JY at the same time ( or within a minute of ) as my team, but have found their safe and the black one and equipped themselves. 2.Your team get's there faster even though you've presented no evidence as to why that would be. I haven't seen reference to or links to a single feat that shows them even as fast as I've shown with video footage my slowest member Six. 3. Any feat I present is invalid because it's super human but your team can all see and accurately aim over miles distance without scopes and in conditions that impede and distort vision greatly 4.Despite the fact that one of my team members has repeatedly defeated teams of scores of top level operatives. Has attacked penetrated and taken down fortified bunkers with hundred of defenders. has defeated operatives trained to the level of everyone on your team but chemically enhanced she will fall to any of your team on their own because you say so. 5. Your team can apparently gain access to a flag even when every point of access is denied. I didn't just say I'd booby trap the floors, I said all windows, stairs and the floor underneath the flag. And I'M the one who has to have everything go the way I want it to for anything to happen. Your right, we are going in circles. I thought that when I said votes could start when you finished if you didn't raise any more a couple of pages back. Voting now open.
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Post by Dane on Feb 9, 2013 7:49:07 GMT -5
Wait, what? I was under the impression the X's on the map were the towns and the rectangle blocks at the end were the start zones.
"They will begin approximately equidistant from their respective bases, which will be classic wild-west styled towns. These towns will be at the back center of their respective sides of the field. Within the main Saloon of these towns is where the flags will be kept."
Which one of us is reading that wrong? This explains perfectly why we have misunderstood each other about distances this whole time.
Not on approach, but I statistically have a much better chance of finding guns first. Basically: -If we both fight without weapons, I have 5v2 with better fighters, so I'll win. -If we both fight with weapons, I still have a 5v2 with better shooters, so I'll win.
That's all I'm saying about the junkyard engagement, nothing about magically having guns before I reach the junkyard.
Oh, my bad. For most of the thread you had shown respect for the physical fitness of my team so I didn't think it needed to be proven. When I make a team I consider their feats when I do it, same as anyone. I wouldn't pick guys who couldn't get the job done or say something I can't reasonably prove. Let's see what youtube can provide for my guys:
Frank Moses
Has incredible precision and agility, even after retirement. Dodges automatic gun fire. Dodges an RPG. Both while protecting a civilian. Nails a guy with a grenade launcher fired over a shipping crate (blindfire).
Takes apart a CIA wetworks team (fully armed) with his bare hands and a handgun. Jumps between moving cars on the highway, so in pretty good shape still.
Takes down the CIA's top man with relative ease.
Like most action films, Frank doesn't have any half hour scenes of him running a marathon. He's obviously not in his prime but he isn't in bad shape either. Dodging gunfire and taking down top class CIA agents does infer that he's in pretty good shape, even if he isn't peak.
Lee Christmas
Goes hardcore on some dudes in a church.
Takes down a high end fighter.
(Start at 0:25) Takes down a bunch of soldiers with some knives.
(Start at 1:00) Takes out the trash.
Expendables 2 overall killcount (164).
Now almost every scene in Expendables is a fight scene, there aren't many of him running. But it's obvious he's in very good shape.
Dutch
Surprisingly for Dutch there is virtually no footage of his fight with the Predator. But the trailer gives you a decent idea, even among special forces guys he is considered the best. He's in great physical shape, runs around a jungle being chased by a superhuman Predator for a couple of days. Hot conditions, not entirely different from the desert. Has good resourcefulness, strength, aim and durability. I mean he takes a pretty serious beating from the Predator in the film and he never gives up or sustains a serious injury. Pretty baller guy.
James Bond
(Start at 1:10) Chases down a bombmaker with the skills of a legendary parkour practitioner. Literally. The guy who played the bombmaker in the film invented parkour in real life. That takes some serious fitness.
(Start at 1:30) Runs halfway across London to stop a terrorist.
(Start at 1:10) Reaction speed. Fight skill. Explosion dodging. Agility.
Bond takes down an assassin in a knife fight.
Pain tolerance.
Fight Skill. Takes a 5.56 round to the chest and survives.
Dodges gunfire and takes down an assassin.
(Start at 1:15) With a gun to head his head, takes down a bunch of guards before they can react.
Hawkeye
Believe it or not, I actually couldn't find a single video on the internet with Hawkeye in it. But I think it's safe to say you've seen the Avengers so I can't show you a scene you haven't already seen. He's in good shape, he's a top level SHIELD agent and his accuracy is stupidly good.
Not 'any feat'. Specifically saying he's faster than a werewolf. Literally just that one.
I said my team can use their weapons at effective weapons range and use binoculars to see further than they could with the naked eye. There's nothing mystical about that.
Oh, not at all. I never said Nikita would lose to anyone in hand to hand. I could make a very good case for Bond or Lee Christmas based on their fight scenes, but there is no need to argue that. I never said they would beat her easily. I said that Matrix and Gabriel would lose 2v5 very badly.
What I did say about Nikita is that she isn't bulletproof and I will shoot her with guns from long range. Nothing you've said refutes that.
Again, no. You're exaggerating what I'm saying. You're saying that your man has trapped the building so that no one, under any conditions could possibly enter. That's fairly ludicrous.
What I said is that my team is intelligent and skilled enough either evade or disarm traps. James Bond has done it in virtually every movie he has ever appeared in. Besides, you're trying to make things as concrete as you can. It's a wooden shack dude. My team aren't going to just waltz into enemy territory and spring all your traps. They'll assess the situation and if they don't think they can get in without being hurt and they know you don't have any weapons to actually fight them, then what is stopping them from demolishing the building and pulling the flag out of the rubble?
There are 20 ways to do this that aren't "walk into a spike pit" or "catch a falling log with your teeth".
I still don't know how your guy, with literally no tools whatsoever dug 10 foot deep pits (inside a building with a floor) and sharpened all these logs up. Where did he even get the logs?
You have access to sheet metal, some wall panels and some broken glass. It's not actually that scary or sophisticated. You act like you've got the walls rigged with high explosives or something. I don't need an expert here to come in and cut the right wire. You have sharp things rigged with string. It isn't actually rocket science to disarm that. You just cut the string and move out of the way.
That's why I wanted you to name your traps, because saying I can't avoid something is easy when you don't tell me it's retardedly simple like a swinging log. This isn't Scooby Doo. Bond's got this.
Totally happy to open votes.
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Post by Erik-El on Feb 9, 2013 15:35:38 GMT -5
Both people have put in very strong arguments, very strong. Beatboks uses a lot of evidence for his characters and includes his own military background to reinforce his points.
However, Beatboks has a team and a scenario that is tailored to win only if every action is carried out in their favor, in a very specific series of events. There is just no flexibility in his argument. I'm sure that I don't have to tell a military man that in combat, things rarely go as perfectly planned against an unknown adversary.
Dane's team is just a better fit for this scenario and his arguments take advantage of that. I have no doubt that if this were a scenario more geared for espionage and short, hit and run tactics with heavy cover, Beatboks would have taken the medal in this one though.
In short, Dane.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 9, 2013 16:26:12 GMT -5
COOL we actually got a vote ( unlike our galactic show down tourney) Dane BTW best of luck and ans usual it's been loads of fun debating you.
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Post by Erik-El on Feb 9, 2013 16:30:47 GMT -5
COOL we actually got a vote ( unlike our galactic show down tourney) Dane BTW best of luck and ans usual it's been loads of fun debating you. I want to stress that you made very good points, but to me, you were fighting an uphill battle from go because of your team selection vs battlefield vs Dane. It was a good, if long read lol.
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Post by Dane on Feb 9, 2013 18:17:20 GMT -5
COOL we actually got a vote ( unlike our galactic show down tourney) Dane BTW best of luck and ans usual it's been loads of fun debating you. hah, I don't think it's over yet. I wouldn't like to be the guys who have to read through it all but I'm sure we'll get more than one.
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Beatboks
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Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 9, 2013 18:26:14 GMT -5
COOL we actually got a vote ( unlike our galactic show down tourney) Dane BTW best of luck and ans usual it's been loads of fun debating you. I want to stress that you made very good points, but to me, you were fighting an uphill battle from go because of your team selection vs battlefield vs Dane. It was a good, if long read lol. I understand, and I do have a response. But I will wait until all voting is finished and the battle called by L una. It wouldn't be fair to Dane if I added comment after voting started and tried to influence votes. I thought I had made the point but obviously not clearly enough
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 9, 2013 18:30:51 GMT -5
Dane apologize if you were on line and saw last post before I modified. Items the damon tables auto spell, I in no way meant to question man hood etc as I types Dane not Diane .
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Post by Erik-El on Feb 9, 2013 18:41:56 GMT -5
I want to stress that you made very good points, but to me, you were fighting an uphill battle from go because of your team selection vs battlefield vs Dane. It was a good, if long read lol. I understand, and I do have a response. But I will wait until all voting is finished and the battle called by L una. It wouldn't be fair to Dane if I added comment after voting started and tried to influence votes. I thought I had made the point but obviously not clearly enough I don't think it's bad form to try and win votes. There was a lot to read so if you think I missed something vital to your arguments victory, point it out and I'll go over it again.
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Post by Dane on Feb 9, 2013 18:53:50 GMT -5
Dane apologize if you were on line and saw last post before I modified. Items the damon tables auto spell, I in no way meant to question man hood etc as I types Dane not Diane . lol, never even saw it. Wouldn't have bothered me either way. Go ahead and post those arguments dude. I think there may have been some confusion about the map anyway.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 9, 2013 19:53:39 GMT -5
Ok if your cool with it. My stance was that the actions I'm relying are the most likely to occur because thay are the tactic ally most sound way to go. You have limited resources to cross the desert etc so for survival sake your going to take the short est route. Hence why I don t believe we would even encounter each other in the joy because spending time searching it with even the tree can teens of water increases rissks which all our guys should be too smart for
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Post by Dane on Feb 9, 2013 20:01:05 GMT -5
Ok if your cool with it. My stance was that the actions I'm relying are the most likely to occur because thay are the tactic ally most sound way to go. You have limited resources to cross the desert etc so for survival sake your going to take the short est route. Hence why I don t believe we would even encounter each other in the joy because spending time searching it with even the tree can teens of water increases rissks which all our guys should be too smart for Did you see my comment on the map you made? You're making for the starting point. I believe the towns are the X's marked on the map, not the start point. If you have to head for the X's then your path will bisect my team's. That's why I'm saying they're really close together (easily weapons range) while you're saying they're miles apart.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Feb 9, 2013 21:21:11 GMT -5
The set up th read and op clearly said
The x's are in the middle of the desert. The col our bands are at the rear of the battle field. That's why I believe the x's to be the drop points and the twins to be the col our bands
I though I also remembered something about equi distant from JY and base but I could have that wrong
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Post by Dane on Feb 9, 2013 21:25:41 GMT -5
The set up th read and op clearly said The x's are in the middle of the desert. The col our bands are at the rear of the junk yard. That's why I believe the x's to be the drop points and the twins to be the col our bands I absolutely don't see any information in there that indicates the X's are drop points. You're going to need Luna or someone else to confirm the way you're reading it because to me the X's are the towns and the colored bars are the spawn point essentially.
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