Post by Silver on Nov 8, 2010 20:56:27 GMT -5
On the Vine, I wrote a thread in the General Discussion section called Planet Moving Feats. I basically addressed points as to why moving a planet is a strength feat. I am going to copy and paste that thread here and add information to improve it. Is it necessary? Probably not. I think most of us here agree that it is a strength feat. But I feel like posting it anyway.
www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion/1/planet-moving-feats/578197/
I have heard various users claim that when characters such as Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter moved the earth or when Mr. Majestic moved planets that these are not strength feats, and that instead, they are simply flight and durability feats. I respectfully disagree. I am covering this subject more for the sake of the battle forums and comparisons between characters than anything else. Obviously, there is a severe amount of physics being ignored for a character to be able to move a planet, such as gravitational fields, damage to the planet's surface/atmosphere, super powers that obviously defy physics etc. However, considering the fact that this a comic book, I am not going to work through those physics as it is unrelated the case I am making and would simply be unnecessary to address. What I will cover, as far as physics is concerned, is primarily weight and resistance, as those seem to be one of the few things I can address, albeit generally, without completely ignoring physics as a whole. In this thread, the foremost focus and main arguments will be centered around Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Martian moving the planet during the Obsidian Age, primarily because that is the scenario most commonly mentioned, although I will use other examples of various strength feats as well to help explain my standpoint. I will be addressing various points in the activity of their moving planets and how it relates to an actual activity of weight resistance against their bodies and, based on the depictions of this movement, the dialog, and other factors shown in the comic itself, why this is a legitimate strength feat.
During the Obsidian Age:
Now, first and foremost, as I said above, there are some who believes this was simply a feat of resiliency and flight. Notice the dialog. Wonder Woman: "Does it matter?!? I did not...return from the dead a second time...to fail now! Pull!" "Pull." The simple fact that she said that bares relevance. Wonder Woman specifically states that they are pulling the earth. It is not simply a strenuous activity resulted in flight and physical resiliency; it is shown, purely by her dialog, that physical might is being shown. My next point: if it were merely a showing of durability against great amounts of weight, then it would not have been shown in this way. What you see in the scan above is Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Martian holding strands of Wonder Woman's lasso as it is tied around the earth. The key point to notice in this is that they are holding the lasso. If all this was was an example of their durability and flight, then the lasso would have to be tied around them. Case and point. Pretend for a minute that the lasso was tied around their bodies and that they were flying away from earth to move it. If that were the case, then that would be a significant showing of the full capabilities of their physical resiliency and their flight powers. Why? Because the resistance of the earth's weight is against the brunt of their bodies as their flight does the work of pulling the weight. Now, in contrast, look at the scan above. As you can clearly see, Clark, Diana, and the Martian are holding strands of the lasso in their hands. As such, the weight is in their hands for them to keep grasp over, which does require a massive amount of strength.
Notice this example (appreciation to MrDirector for the scan):
Here, Kal is shown with an Oan energy construct of a massive harness surrounding the earth. In this example the harness is around his shoulders, and he is simply grasping at handlebars on the outside of it. Now, understand, I am not trying to underplay this feat (even though the New Earth/Earth-One-flashback debate may discredit this feat anyway). All I am saying is that there is a difference between this planet moving feat and the feat in Obsidian Age. The difference is that in the instance with Starbreaker, the harness is around Superman's body as opposed to him actually grasping and pulling it under him as he flies. Again, not taking shots at this, and to be honest, I could see how the case could be made that even this is a strength feat, based on implications, dialog, and other factors similar to the case I am making. Bottom line, if anything would be an example of pure flight power and durability, this would be it. Obsidian Age earth-pulling is not.
Here is another example that I can use to compare with the Starbreaker showing:
This is from Soul War. Superman and Wonder Woman caught the Spectre as he fell, and Spectre is supposed to have the weight of eternity. However, if you notice, they are flying as they did this. So, is this a flight feat or a strength feat? This goes back to the point I was making about holding the lasso in their hands as opposed to it being tied around them. They grabbed Spectre's cloak to catch him. As such, they had weight pulling down as they held it in their hands and pulled up. So, yes, their flight played a part in this, but the simple fact that they applied their own might to catch him (as proven by the fact that the cloak is held by them and not tied around them) makes this a strength feat. Are flight and physical durability enough to withstand the weight involved? Yes. Do they still support the weight themselves? Yes. Taking this back to the Obsidian Age, they held the lasso in their hands which proves that they had enough power to grasp the weight. Even more than that though, notice the position they are in as they fly and the position and angle of their arms. If you notice, Wonder Woman's left arm is slightly bent upwards, and her other arm is obviously stretched out as she strains to pull the weight. Now notice Superman. His left arm is also bent upwards, and his right arm is stretch as well. Notice the Martian. All of his arms are bent upwards. What does this imply? Honestly, what difference does it make what positioning their bodies and arms are in? This may seem like I am just reading too much into an irrelevant detail, but it does matter because it demonstrates the actual activity of pulling that weight. As an example, think of lifting dumbbells in weight training. Where is the resistance?
The resistance of the weight being lifted is downward (as a simplification, since that is not a precise answer). Why is that significant? Because the action of the weight lifting is pulling upwards. This takes me back to my original point. Their arms are bent upwards as they hold the lasso in their hands and pull the earth. This shows that they pulled the lasso upwards, which would require them to pull on the actual weight themselves. Think of it this way. If I were to stand on the caboose of a truck holding a chain in my hands that linked 10 cinder blocks together and allowed the truck to drive as I pulled the chain, what would that prove? There would be two contributing factors to the movement: one is the truck driving and is essentially the factor that moves the weight; the other is me having enough strength to hold the chain and pull it as the truck moves. If I were to face the front of the truck while bending up my arms and, in turn, pulling up the chain as the truck drove, that would be a testament to my strength as it shows I can support the weight and bypass the resistance presented by the cinderblocks. As such, the two contributing factors are there. To translate that to the Obsidian Age feat, flight and strength are demonstrated in this, as well as physical durability under that much duress. But does that in any way diminish the fact that they had the strength to, with their arms, shoulders, etc., pull the weight of one-third of the earth? No. The flight did move the earth. However, the fact that the lasso was not tied around them and instead they held the lasso themselves, pulling it under their own physical might and supporting the weight as they flew constitutes to this being a strength feat.
Here is another issue I would like to address. The "weight" of the earth. Earth's mass is around six and half sextillion tons. Often times, people will say that because the earth is in space, there is no weight to it, despite what its mass may be. Weight is related to gravity and mass, when taking into account the formula for calculating weight. That being the case, I could mention the earth's gravitational field, the moon's gravitational field, and especially the sun's gravitational field to debate that. But instead of wasting time with arguing resistance against gravitational fields that affect the earth, causing it to orbit the sun, it would much easier to simply refer back to the scan again. If there actually was no weight or resistance being met as the three of them pulled the earth in the Obsidian Age, why would they be struggling so much? Clearly, whether scientific or not, in that scan, the earth has weight, or else Clark, Diana, and the Martian would never have had that much strain.
My last point is something I am surprised I never mentioned on this thread on the Vine, and that is writer intention. What do you think the Joe Kelly meant to portray by this? That they had enough flight power and resiliency to move the earth? Or that they had the strength to the move the earth? Do I have a letter from Kelly stating specifically what his intention was? No. Is it that mandatory? Not really. The intended display should be relatively obvious. I somehow doubt Kelly decided to work through the science of what exactly would contribute to this feat. If he had, he never would have written it in the first place considering the entire showing contradicts numerous scientific aspects that would otherwise surround it.
When combining these factors: Dialog asserting the claim of strength being applied through order to "pull" + Lasso being held in their hands as opposed to being tied around their bodies + Origin of resistance being downward as they pull their arms up + Fairly obvious writer intention being strength feat = Strength feat.
www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion/1/planet-moving-feats/578197/
I have heard various users claim that when characters such as Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter moved the earth or when Mr. Majestic moved planets that these are not strength feats, and that instead, they are simply flight and durability feats. I respectfully disagree. I am covering this subject more for the sake of the battle forums and comparisons between characters than anything else. Obviously, there is a severe amount of physics being ignored for a character to be able to move a planet, such as gravitational fields, damage to the planet's surface/atmosphere, super powers that obviously defy physics etc. However, considering the fact that this a comic book, I am not going to work through those physics as it is unrelated the case I am making and would simply be unnecessary to address. What I will cover, as far as physics is concerned, is primarily weight and resistance, as those seem to be one of the few things I can address, albeit generally, without completely ignoring physics as a whole. In this thread, the foremost focus and main arguments will be centered around Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Martian moving the planet during the Obsidian Age, primarily because that is the scenario most commonly mentioned, although I will use other examples of various strength feats as well to help explain my standpoint. I will be addressing various points in the activity of their moving planets and how it relates to an actual activity of weight resistance against their bodies and, based on the depictions of this movement, the dialog, and other factors shown in the comic itself, why this is a legitimate strength feat.
During the Obsidian Age:
Now, first and foremost, as I said above, there are some who believes this was simply a feat of resiliency and flight. Notice the dialog. Wonder Woman: "Does it matter?!? I did not...return from the dead a second time...to fail now! Pull!" "Pull." The simple fact that she said that bares relevance. Wonder Woman specifically states that they are pulling the earth. It is not simply a strenuous activity resulted in flight and physical resiliency; it is shown, purely by her dialog, that physical might is being shown. My next point: if it were merely a showing of durability against great amounts of weight, then it would not have been shown in this way. What you see in the scan above is Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Martian holding strands of Wonder Woman's lasso as it is tied around the earth. The key point to notice in this is that they are holding the lasso. If all this was was an example of their durability and flight, then the lasso would have to be tied around them. Case and point. Pretend for a minute that the lasso was tied around their bodies and that they were flying away from earth to move it. If that were the case, then that would be a significant showing of the full capabilities of their physical resiliency and their flight powers. Why? Because the resistance of the earth's weight is against the brunt of their bodies as their flight does the work of pulling the weight. Now, in contrast, look at the scan above. As you can clearly see, Clark, Diana, and the Martian are holding strands of the lasso in their hands. As such, the weight is in their hands for them to keep grasp over, which does require a massive amount of strength.
Notice this example (appreciation to MrDirector for the scan):
Here, Kal is shown with an Oan energy construct of a massive harness surrounding the earth. In this example the harness is around his shoulders, and he is simply grasping at handlebars on the outside of it. Now, understand, I am not trying to underplay this feat (even though the New Earth/Earth-One-flashback debate may discredit this feat anyway). All I am saying is that there is a difference between this planet moving feat and the feat in Obsidian Age. The difference is that in the instance with Starbreaker, the harness is around Superman's body as opposed to him actually grasping and pulling it under him as he flies. Again, not taking shots at this, and to be honest, I could see how the case could be made that even this is a strength feat, based on implications, dialog, and other factors similar to the case I am making. Bottom line, if anything would be an example of pure flight power and durability, this would be it. Obsidian Age earth-pulling is not.
Here is another example that I can use to compare with the Starbreaker showing:
This is from Soul War. Superman and Wonder Woman caught the Spectre as he fell, and Spectre is supposed to have the weight of eternity. However, if you notice, they are flying as they did this. So, is this a flight feat or a strength feat? This goes back to the point I was making about holding the lasso in their hands as opposed to it being tied around them. They grabbed Spectre's cloak to catch him. As such, they had weight pulling down as they held it in their hands and pulled up. So, yes, their flight played a part in this, but the simple fact that they applied their own might to catch him (as proven by the fact that the cloak is held by them and not tied around them) makes this a strength feat. Are flight and physical durability enough to withstand the weight involved? Yes. Do they still support the weight themselves? Yes. Taking this back to the Obsidian Age, they held the lasso in their hands which proves that they had enough power to grasp the weight. Even more than that though, notice the position they are in as they fly and the position and angle of their arms. If you notice, Wonder Woman's left arm is slightly bent upwards, and her other arm is obviously stretched out as she strains to pull the weight. Now notice Superman. His left arm is also bent upwards, and his right arm is stretch as well. Notice the Martian. All of his arms are bent upwards. What does this imply? Honestly, what difference does it make what positioning their bodies and arms are in? This may seem like I am just reading too much into an irrelevant detail, but it does matter because it demonstrates the actual activity of pulling that weight. As an example, think of lifting dumbbells in weight training. Where is the resistance?
The resistance of the weight being lifted is downward (as a simplification, since that is not a precise answer). Why is that significant? Because the action of the weight lifting is pulling upwards. This takes me back to my original point. Their arms are bent upwards as they hold the lasso in their hands and pull the earth. This shows that they pulled the lasso upwards, which would require them to pull on the actual weight themselves. Think of it this way. If I were to stand on the caboose of a truck holding a chain in my hands that linked 10 cinder blocks together and allowed the truck to drive as I pulled the chain, what would that prove? There would be two contributing factors to the movement: one is the truck driving and is essentially the factor that moves the weight; the other is me having enough strength to hold the chain and pull it as the truck moves. If I were to face the front of the truck while bending up my arms and, in turn, pulling up the chain as the truck drove, that would be a testament to my strength as it shows I can support the weight and bypass the resistance presented by the cinderblocks. As such, the two contributing factors are there. To translate that to the Obsidian Age feat, flight and strength are demonstrated in this, as well as physical durability under that much duress. But does that in any way diminish the fact that they had the strength to, with their arms, shoulders, etc., pull the weight of one-third of the earth? No. The flight did move the earth. However, the fact that the lasso was not tied around them and instead they held the lasso themselves, pulling it under their own physical might and supporting the weight as they flew constitutes to this being a strength feat.
Here is another issue I would like to address. The "weight" of the earth. Earth's mass is around six and half sextillion tons. Often times, people will say that because the earth is in space, there is no weight to it, despite what its mass may be. Weight is related to gravity and mass, when taking into account the formula for calculating weight. That being the case, I could mention the earth's gravitational field, the moon's gravitational field, and especially the sun's gravitational field to debate that. But instead of wasting time with arguing resistance against gravitational fields that affect the earth, causing it to orbit the sun, it would much easier to simply refer back to the scan again. If there actually was no weight or resistance being met as the three of them pulled the earth in the Obsidian Age, why would they be struggling so much? Clearly, whether scientific or not, in that scan, the earth has weight, or else Clark, Diana, and the Martian would never have had that much strain.
My last point is something I am surprised I never mentioned on this thread on the Vine, and that is writer intention. What do you think the Joe Kelly meant to portray by this? That they had enough flight power and resiliency to move the earth? Or that they had the strength to the move the earth? Do I have a letter from Kelly stating specifically what his intention was? No. Is it that mandatory? Not really. The intended display should be relatively obvious. I somehow doubt Kelly decided to work through the science of what exactly would contribute to this feat. If he had, he never would have written it in the first place considering the entire showing contradicts numerous scientific aspects that would otherwise surround it.
When combining these factors: Dialog asserting the claim of strength being applied through order to "pull" + Lasso being held in their hands as opposed to being tied around their bodies + Origin of resistance being downward as they pull their arms up + Fairly obvious writer intention being strength feat = Strength feat.
I understand. Hope this is a reasonable explanation though.
