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Post by Gender on Dec 11, 2010 18:22:22 GMT -5
I say it's all three. If they didn't have the flight power to at the very least match the resistance or exceed it, they wouldn't be moving. If they didn't have the durability to exert that kind of force they would be ripped limb from limb and if they didn't have the physical power to pull it on at all, they simply wouldn't be able to hold onto the lasso.
Although what the writer wanted the reader to get from this is simply, "Superman, Wonderwoman and Martian Manhunter are REALLY strong". In all likely hood the people thought this up, VERY doubtfully actually thought of how would this be possible in reality. It's all fiction so the unbelievable can happen.
Sort of like when George Lucas dreams up something like the Deathstar which honestly doesn't make a bit of sense, much less do I think George actually crunched the numbers to know what kind of power you would need to vaporize planets. *Sleepily, while sitting at the desk leaning on a few fingers from his hand*"So it's the size of a moon and can fire a beam of energy that can blow up planets" *Looks at this watch* "Yeah I gotta go." *Walks out for an early weekend.*
As for what SM, WW and MM would be struggling with is pulling away from the sun, it's gravitational pull, I think. I honestly don't know how much force would be required to move the Earth so whatever. I have no plans on giving this more thought than the writers do.
Now Silver others may disagree, which is fine, I doubt I'm going to change my mind on how I interpret the event anytime soon.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Dec 12, 2010 4:48:17 GMT -5
@data: Actually, I have no disagreements with what you said. If I tried to read between the lines of what you said, I may be able to locate a few nuances I disagree with, but as it stands, I have no issue with your post.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Dec 12, 2010 6:34:20 GMT -5
As for what SM, WW and MM would be struggling with is pulling away from the sun, it's gravitational pull, I think. I honestly don't know how much force would be required to move the Earth so whatever. I have no plans on giving this more thought than the writers do. Actually no. The Sun's gravitational pull on Earth is counteracted by the centrifugal force of Earth's orbit. As with any orbiting body, the two forces cancel each other out, leaving Earth 'weightless' relative to the Sun. If this were not so, we would have taken a dive into the Sun millions of years ago. Thing is, in order to calculate the force they exerted on moving Earth, we need to know the mass of the Earth (roughly 6*10^24 kg) and the acceleration they imparted on it. And this is something we are never, ever given. This isn't a problem within Earth's gravity, because we know they're fighting off acceleration of Earth's gravity to lift something, and that's a constant. When they're moving the Earth itself, we just can't tell. Personally though, my opinion is that, in order to move a planet any noticeable distance in a reasonable amount of time, you would need some monumental acceleration. Agreed about the writers not having any sense of scale. But that's kinda common knowledge by now.
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Post by masterprime64 on Dec 12, 2010 17:27:28 GMT -5
@ Silver yes
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Dec 13, 2010 4:23:04 GMT -5
@prim: I had another example of Clark, Diana, and Kyle moving the moon, but I neglected to use that also. There are plenty of examples I could have used that I never did. I could have used Majestic's planet moving as an example as well but never did. Sorry.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 18, 2011 2:00:34 GMT -5
Sigh.Alright. I am bumping this to post an update that I wish I had when I originally wrote this. In JLA: The Titans, Cyborg/Cyberion's machinery surrounded the moon, which, as shown, increased its mass, and the moon was being moved. The Justice League worked to maintain the moon's orbit. In order to do this, Kyle created a construct around one half of the moon, and Diana used her malleable invisible-plane substance to around the other half. After this, the JLA worked against the resistance moving the moon. However, in these scans, Superman says specifically that strength is used for them to move celestial bodies. This would have proven my point from the beginning without my writing a long description explaining my case; so as I said, I wish I had read JLA: The Titans months ago. Better late than never, I guess, but just to settle this debate, a quote straight from a character's mouth asserting that these showings are in fact strength feats.
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Post by Lunacyde Prime on Jan 18, 2011 2:15:48 GMT -5
Everyone here on the Ledger has already agreed with you on that, I don't see why you started this thread again. I am not entirely convinced of that. Nexus of Light considered it a flight/durability feat, and there are users here I have barely talked to, if I have at all. In general, I agree. Most of us here qualify this as a strength feat, but just for the sake of reference, if ever the question did come up, this is just my personal explanation on the matter. Even if most agree I still think it's a great reference material and very well written . Thank You Silver.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 18, 2011 2:20:09 GMT -5
@luna: Read the post directly above yours.
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Post by Lunacyde Prime on Jan 18, 2011 2:23:07 GMT -5
Haha I just did. However I still think it's a good thread. Thumbs up.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 18, 2011 2:26:06 GMT -5
I really, really wish I knew about that before though. Instead of this long explanation, all I would have had to have done is post that one scan, and /thread.
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Post by ckal on Jan 18, 2011 18:18:03 GMT -5
When there are no other powers being used aside from physicality, of course it relies on strength. But, being in space, they have nothing to push off of. This is where some sort of strange flight power factor comes into play, probably among other things that are unknown to us.
But for example, even using this power that their flight generates to push against an object, you need to be strong enough keep your arms extended and not collapse under the weight. If pulling, you still need to be strong enough to hold on, etc.
In the end, strength is the determining factor. Don't forget about endurance and durability to sustain this extreme amount of physical exertion as well.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 18, 2011 18:50:38 GMT -5
Strength really is too nebulous a term to be easily applied here. Strength can apply to durability, the physical ability to move things, moral character, and a whole host of things. Now if you are attempting to say that planet moving is purely a feat of the physical ability to move things then I would have to disagree with you as well. I will grant you that moving a planet is always an impressive feat of control.
This really comes down to the source of their flight powers. Diana's strength, flight, and durability are all magical in nature and draw upon the same source. She has to be excluded due to this. Martian Manhunter and Superman likely use some form of energy manipulation or psionics to make all of their various powers work. Also, Hal claimed that he and Supes were the only ones "strong" enough to move a planet. This is illogical as his physical ability to move things comes directly from energy manipulation and will, otherwise he has the strength of a normal human.
What was with the breathing apparatus in that last scan? MMH, WW, and Supes have all flown in space completely unaided.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jan 19, 2011 4:40:07 GMT -5
Wait, so Diana is pulling the moon... Using her plane as a rope?
God I love comics.
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Post by masterprime64 on Jan 19, 2011 17:00:40 GMT -5
hmmm
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 19, 2011 17:09:00 GMT -5
Guys, this really is not even debatable anymore. Supes already said what needed to be said. This conversation is over.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 19, 2011 23:28:43 GMT -5
His words mean nothing unless you know which definition he is using and what he understands is the source of his strength. The only way that strength can ever be considered the primary means of planetary movement is if you get someone who cannot fly to move the planet. Show me the Hulk moving a planet and you have an argument but Supes, WW, MMH, and GL all can fly and have disparate power sources.
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 19, 2011 23:34:39 GMT -5
I really, really wish I knew about that before though. Instead of this long explanation, all I would have had to have done is post that one scan, and /thread. Never ever EVER underestimate peoples' ability to retain their own opinion even when confronted with undeniable evidence to the contarary.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 20, 2011 0:55:49 GMT -5
His words mean nothing unless you know which definition he is using and what he understands is the source of his strength. The only way that strength can ever be considered the primary means of planetary movement is if you get someone who cannot fly to move the planet. Show me the Hulk moving a planet and you have an argument but Supes, WW, MMH, and GL all can fly and have disparate power sources. He said "brute strength." There really is no other meaning he could have other than the physical power to exert energy in order to move the celestial body. If you want to argue that, then the obvious interpretation of character statements is completely lost on you. Is flight a factor? Sure. No character without flight could move a planet or a moon or a star. But the fact that Clark said specifically that brute strength is applied for the purpose of moving them attests to the fact that it is a strength feat.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 20, 2011 4:54:20 GMT -5
The Flash says he is the fastest man alive, we all know that is completely untrue because Zoom regularly runs circles around him. Heck, there are 4 Flashes, which one is the fastest one? The obvious interpretation is a lie so how do we reconcile this? We have to assume that they are running on a different definition of the words than we are. What people say is shaped by the dictionary but what they mean is shaped by their experiences. Brute Strength itself also implies that no tools or anything other than raw physical strength are being used when that is clearly false as evidenced by the use of a GL Ring and WW's invisible plane. What he likely meant is that they couldn't use any tricks like gravity manipulation or electromagnetic manipulation to move the planet because no one there had those powers. Everyone there does have high levels of durability, flight speed, and strength all of which are equally needed to complete the objective.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 20, 2011 6:30:13 GMT -5
The Flash says he is the fastest man alive, we all know that is completely untrue because Zoom regularly runs circles around him. Heck, there are 4 Flashes, which one is the fastest one? The obvious interpretation is a lie so how do we reconcile this? We have to assume that they are running on a different definition of the words than we are. What people say is shaped by the dictionary but what they mean is shaped by their experiences. Brute Strength itself also implies that no tools or anything other than raw physical strength are being used when that is clearly false as evidenced by the use of a GL Ring and WW's invisible plane. What he likely meant is that they couldn't use any tricks like gravity manipulation or electromagnetic manipulation to move the planet because no one there had those powers. Everyone there does have high levels of durability, flight speed, and strength all of which are equally needed to complete the objective. This is a poor analogy. Flash stating he is the fastest man alive is a title, similar to how Hulk references himself as the strongest one there is. These are incomparable to what a character defines as the power used to accomplish a given feat. If Flash strikes with superhuman force and attributes this to mass force acceleration through his speed, then he accomplished this by mass force acceleration though his speed, as opposed to some other explanation such as super strength. If Silver Surfer transmutes matter on the scale of a planet and attributes this to matter manipulation, then he accomplished this by matter manipulation, as opposed to some other explanation such as reality warping. If Martian Manhunter puts someone to sleep and attributes this to telepathy, then he accomplished by telepathy, as opposed to some other explanation such as nerve/sensory alteration. Thus, if Superman helps move a planet and attributes this to super strength, then he accomplished this by super strength. The evidence has already been presented. Whether or not it makes sense to you is irrelevant (and God forbid a comic makes no sense...). It is what it is. And according to Superman, what it is is a strength feat.
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