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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 15:49:44 GMT -5
Okay, you just started reading Invincible. Mad props to you for that, because it's an awesome series. Shout out to Mark, Allen, and Eve. Vultrimites, are like Kryptonians, minus the fact that they need sunlight. Sorry for spoiling this, but it's been shown that a Viltrumite can fly at 250 times the speed of light, at the very least lift 400 tons, heal at an incredible pace, survive planets exploding on them, and hold their breath for up to two weeks easily. Are these or are these not super feats? And are these or are these not powers? Compared to what? Humans? Yeah sure. Compared to other Viltrumites, no. They are not powers. To them, that is no more impressive than a human running at 10 miles per hour is to us or lifting 100lbs over their heads or holding their breath for up to 2 minutes. And like I was telling Vance, if we constantly switch between the viewpoint we're looking at, there would virtually be no such thing as super powers to begin with because there is going to be some race or entity that can do that naturally. So wouldn't it be only natural to look and judge the super feats from the viewpoint of the reader? If something is done in the comics that you, as the reader, know is simply spectacular, amazing, uncanny, or downright impossible, shouldn't that particular feat be called as such a super power? If not, I'd like to know why.
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 2, 2011 16:07:07 GMT -5
Compared to what? Humans? Yeah sure. Compared to other Viltrumites, no. They are not powers. To them, that is no more impressive than a human running at 10 miles per hour is to us or lifting 100lbs over their heads or holding their breath for up to 2 minutes. And like I was telling Vance, if we constantly switch between the viewpoint we're looking at, there would virtually be no such thing as super powers to begin with because there is going to be some race or entity that can do that naturally. So wouldn't it be only natural to look and judge the super feats from the viewpoint of the reader? If something is done in the comics that you, as the reader, know is simply spectacular, amazing, uncanny, or downright impossible, shouldn't that particular feat be called as such a super power? If not, I'd like to know why. No. I look at the viewpoint of the character because any comic book character will have powers compared to me. Batman, Captain America, Oracle, Nightwing, etc will all have powers compared to me the reader.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 16:15:16 GMT -5
1.How do the powers come from Kryptonians if they need to be on another planet to have them? You cannot compare what happens to Kryptonians on earth to chi.Even Kryptonians have chi.Every living humanoid organism has chi.The ability to be able to manipulate chi isn't GRANTED it's LEARNED.You cannot learn powers,you can only learn abilities\techniques.Daredevil LEARNED to be a superb gymnast..he was GRANTED superhuman senses. 2.I didn't bring up Superman.You did.I explained to you why he has powers and fits the description I gave of what makes someone super powered. I don't think you understood the point I was making about skrulls and mutants so let's try this again. Beast is a mutant, homo superior.Mutants are essentially humans that are born with a gene that is different from other humans.So by human standards the abilities and deformities of Hank McCoy count as powers because normal human beings aren't born that way. As a skrull..every one of them can shapeshift.That's how they are ALL born.So for them being able to Shapeshift is not a super power.Super Skrulls have SUPER powers because not only can they shapeshift but use the abilities of the characters they mimic. See how that works now? I'm not changing any viewpoints. You only have powers if there is a source.The only Kree with powers are the Marvel's (Ms.Marvel,Captain Marvel,Photon etc.) and Hulkling.Captain Marvel is stronger than most other Kree..why? Because he has a power source. 3.Your point about Rogers doesn't make any sense.The SSS is no different from steroids.There is a source but there are no powers so that "source=powers" doesn't apply to him.We're talking about superhuman ability not enchancing natural human ability. 4.Chi manipulation isn't a power.If everyone can do it then it's not a power.Any person on the planet can manipulate chi.Granted they would need training but that is beside the point.It's like saying anyone on earth can do a math problem.If you were never exposed to math you wouldn't know how to solve the problem but once you learn how to do it..now you can do math.Mostly every human being has the capacity to learn math.Therefore it doesn't make you SUPER to be able to do it. If every being of a certain race can can do the same thing without being exposed to a SOURCE then they don't have powers.If all Kryptonians were powerful on Krypton they wouldn't have powers no matter how far their abilities extend. 5.The bottom line is this.This thread was started because Crom insisted that Karate Kid has powers when he doesn't.All of the abilities he has and has used he owes to martial arts training.Martial arts training is not a source because it's a form of teaching\learning which every normal living being has the capacity to learn and understand. Now every living being could possibly gain powers from the SOURCES that others have like Kryptonians getting powers from the sun.However there is still a source thus they have powers.A Kryptonian with no yellow sun has no powers like a human with no X-gene,radiation,magical enchantments etc. is just a regular human. 1. The sun is the sun. There's nothing magical about it. All it does is burn in the sky. Kryptonians are Kryptonians. They're aliens that have the ability to absorb sunlight differently than other races do. It's all in the Kryptonians. That is something that is only specific to their race. The sun plays as much a role in giving Kryptonians super powers as it does in giving plants food by way of photosynthesis. The plant has the ability to make glucose due to its own physiology, just as the Kryptonian has the ability to use super powers due to its physiology. All the sun does is aid in that natural process. 2. And yes, I can see how going along your line of thinking it wouldn't be possible to learn powers, because according to your line of thinking powers are strictly something that comes from an outside source, but I'm saying that powers aren't limited to being strictly granted from an outside source but should be defined as anything, regardless of explanation, that allows a particular character in the comic world to perform super human feats. Manipulating chi allows for people in the comic world the ability to fly. Flying is a super human feat, and should be considered a super power. The definition shouldn't be limited to some outside source, because other sources, such as chi, can mimic the same abilities. Flying unaided, from the viewpoint of the reader is a super power. Not flying because god gave you the ability to fly, not flying because you're using your own chi to fly, but the action of flying itself. Punching through walls, from the viewpoint of the reader, is a super power. Healing at an accelerated pace is a super power. Not healing because of chi, not healing because of a mutant gene, not healing because you're an alien, but accelerated healing by itself is a super power. The action should be what defines it, not the means to the action, because at the end of the day, the means is just one of a billion possible explanations. According to Wikipedia, According to Comic Vine, Both sites point to the action as being the definition, not the source of the action, because as I said earlier, and as backed by their definitions, the source can be anything, depending on the type of power a character has. 3. But by saying something is a super power for one person while it's not for another is changing viewpoints. Using your Beast example, large hands and feet is indeed something human beings can be born with. It's called Macrocephaly pigmentation large hands feet. It's characterized by, as the name suggests, a large head, and large hands and feet. This is something very rare humans can get. We don't consider it being a super power, but when Hank McCoy gets it as a side effect of the mutant gene, (minus the large head of course) it's suddenly a super power? See, we just changed viewpoints, and by doing so, redefined what a super power was. Using the Skrulls again, by saying their shape shifting is not a super power is conforming to the viewpoint of the Skrulls, but by saying Mystique using her shape shifting is a super power is conforming to the viewpoint of the humans. You're trying to have it both ways, which doesn't work. That's why I don't think your definition of "super powers have to come from a source" is faulted, because something can't be a super power and not a super power at the same time. It either is or isn't. The same thing holds for the Krees. I wasn't speaking about the Marvels, I was speaking about the Kree race as a whole. For them, it's natural to lift things normal humans can't, but if a normal human somehow gains the ability to lift what a Kree can lift, it's a super power. Something can't be a power and not a power at the same time. That just goes against formal logic. 4. Alright, we can drop the SSS argument then. Your argument about chi manipulation can just as easily be said about the gods and skyfathers and mystical demons of the comic world. Since every god has the ability to do something extraordinary, it isn't a power, but every time a god in the comics does something, usually the first thing out of someone's mouth is "Wow, what awesome power he/she has!" So just because everyone in a certain set of beings has the potential to do something whether the beings be gods manipulating reality to humans manipulating chi, doesn't make it any less super because the action that results from it should still be labeled a super power, because from the viewpoint of the reader, that's you, me, and everyone else on this board, it very well is. 5. I saw that thread, and I have to say Crom is right. Karate Kid is performing feats only super humans are capable of doing, and strictly speaking, a super human is a human with super powers, such as super strength, super speed, and super agility, all of which Karate Kid has demonstrated. This is why the definition of super powers should be based on the actions performed instead of the reason behind it. The reason DC chose to give Karate Kid is he trained. That's the same reason Akira Toriyama for people being able to fly unaided. Flying is a super power no matter how you look at it. The action should define the definition, not the reason for it. 1.The Yellow Sun isn't magical but it doesn't exist on Krypton and therefore it's an unnatural source. 2.Powers ARE limited to an outside source.Something can't be a power if you can learn it because that means it's open to everyone.The ability to manipulate chi is something every living being has the capacity to do and therefore there is no powers involved.If someone can teach you to fly than it's no longer superhuman.DBZ is poorly written nonsense and no amount of chi will allow you to fly but for the sake of my argument.Flight for DBZ characters is not a power. 3.Beasts large hands and feet aren't a power because they don't do anything by themselves.The way he uses them for agility is the power.A human having his same characteristics by being mutated has no powers because they don't also have superhuman agility and the ability to use their feet the way a monkey does in acrobatics. I CAN have it both ways with the skrulls because my definition still fits.Shapeshifting for Mystique is a power because there is a source.She has the X-gene.For skrulls it's not because they can all do it.Super-Skrulls are their superheroes as mutants are for humans.Super Skrulls can do what ordinary skrulls cannot. I know you weren't speaking about the Marvels but I WAS.They are the Kree's superheroes.What all Kree can do is irrelevant.Those aren't powers.What the Marvels and Hulkling can do are powers because they all have a source.Their abilities are extraordinary to the Kree. 4.My argument about gods cannot be compared to chi.All Asgardians are technically gods but the only ones that have any actual powers are the ones that were granted them.Class 30 strength isn't a power for Asgardians.Most of them are at least that strong.Thor's abilities however are extraordinary to them because none of them will ever reach that level without being granted abilities from Odin. You cannot compare manipulating reality to manipulating chi.Reality is external,chi is internal.Also one is a magical effect the other is natural. Karate Kid doesn't have powers because he doesn't have a source.Nobody gave him his abilities.He worked for them.
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 2, 2011 16:23:06 GMT -5
*Bows to Vance*
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 16:30:37 GMT -5
GUNPAI!
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 18:17:20 GMT -5
And like I was telling Vance, if we constantly switch between the viewpoint we're looking at, there would virtually be no such thing as super powers to begin with because there is going to be some race or entity that can do that naturally. So wouldn't it be only natural to look and judge the super feats from the viewpoint of the reader? If something is done in the comics that you, as the reader, know is simply spectacular, amazing, uncanny, or downright impossible, shouldn't that particular feat be called as such a super power? If not, I'd like to know why. No. I look at the viewpoint of the character because any comic book character will have powers compared to me. Batman, Captain America, Oracle, Nightwing, etc will all have powers compared to me the reader. But as the character changes, so does the definition of super powers. Super strength is no longer super strength. Super speed is no longer super speed. Super powers are no longer super powers, so how can you go by the view point of the character and still be sure to know exactly what a super power is?
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 18:19:42 GMT -5
1.The Yellow Sun isn't magical but it doesn't exist on Krypton and therefore it's an unnatural source. 2.Powers ARE limited to an outside source.Something can't be a power if you can learn it because that means it's open to everyone.The ability to manipulate chi is something every living being has the capacity to do and therefore there is no powers involved.If someone can teach you to fly than it's no longer superhuman.DBZ is poorly written nonsense and no amount of chi will allow you to fly but for the sake of my argument.Flight for DBZ characters is not a power. 3.Beasts large hands and feet aren't a power because they don't do anything by themselves.The way he uses them for agility is the power.A human having his same characteristics by being mutated has no powers because they don't also have superhuman agility and the ability to use their feet the way a monkey does in acrobatics. I CAN have it both ways with the skrulls because my definition still fits.Shapeshifting for Mystique is a power because there is a source.She has the X-gene.For skrulls it's not because they can all do it.Super-Skrulls are their superheroes as mutants are for humans.Super Skrulls can do what ordinary skrulls cannot. I know you weren't speaking about the Marvels but I WAS.They are the Kree's superheroes.What all Kree can do is irrelevant.Those aren't powers.What the Marvels and Hulkling can do are powers because they all have a source.Their abilities are extraordinary to the Kree. 4.My argument about gods cannot be compared to chi.All Asgardians are technically gods but the only ones that have any actual powers are the ones that were granted them.Class 30 strength isn't a power for Asgardians.Most of them are at least that strong.Thor's abilities however are extraordinary to them because none of them will ever reach that level without being granted abilities from Odin. You cannot compare manipulating reality to manipulating chi.Reality is external,chi is internal.Also one is a magical effect the other is natural. Karate Kid doesn't have powers because he doesn't have a source.Nobody gave him his abilities.He worked for them. 1. An unnatural source that, by itself does nothing. It doesn't give anyone anything. It's just a ball of plasma held together by gravity. Saying that it's the source of a Kryptonian's super power is like saying eating carrots is the source of humans being able to see well. Yes, it helps, there's no disputing that, but carrots by themselves are just carrots. Not the source of seeing well. It's thanks to the physiology of the human body that allows the consumption of carrots to use the vitamin A within the carrots to improve vision. 2. I could say that Marvel is poorly written as well for allowing the manipulation of chi to result in shooting energy blasts. I could say Star Wars is poorly written for allowing the Force, "an energy field created by all living things, that surrounds and penetrates living beings and binds the galaxy together," according to Obi-Wan (sounds an awful lot like chi to me) for allowing its characters the ability to use telekinesis. No matter how you spin it, it's a super power regardless of it coming from an outside source or not. 3. Notice that in defining what Beast's super power was, you specifically mentioned that it was his action, "The way he uses them for agility is the power." That tells me that even following along your line of thinking, the power itself is defined as much by the performance more so than the source, because if it was just the source, then him having the X-gene and the large hands and feet would be enough. Now what I'm saying is that if you encompass beings, be they god or alien or mutant or human in spite of having an external source or not, you get a much more fitting definition of what super powers are in the comic world. As long as the action performed is a super one, then that is a super power. I want you to know that I do understand what you're saying. It does make sense to a degree, but at the same time, the definition just doesn't work simply because regardless of the source, the action is what ultimately defines the power. We don't go around saying having a Green Lantern ring is a super power. We say, creating creating constructs with the ring is the super power. We don't go around saying being connected to the speed force is a super power. We say, using the speed force to move faster than light, stealing speed, and lending it is the power. We don't say getting bit by a radioactive spider is a power, but sticking to walls, shooting webs, and reacting faster than normal humans can is. We don't say getting hit by gamma rays is a super power, but turning into some 7 to 8 foot tall monster who can easily lift over a hundred tons and jump a distance of 3 to 4 miles is. The super powers are the actions performed, not the reason for them, and if you don't believe me, look up any comic book character on the vine or any other wiki and tell me what it says their powers are. Matter of fact, I'll give you some links right now. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superhuman_features_and_abilities_in_fictionwww.superpowerlist.com/www.comicvine.com/superpowers/12-49870/4. The gods I were speaking of were the sky fathers, divine beings, elder gods, and high level demons. You know, the ones that can "naturally" manipulate reality. Surtur, Mephisto, Cyttorak, Atum the God Eater, Chthon, Shuma-Gorath, Gaea, Set, Mikaboshi, Darkseid, in other words, beings that are the supposed "sources" of particular set of super powers. If you can go around saying that humans who can shoot energy blasts, punch through mountains, and, in the DBZ universe, fly, is something that's natural and not a super power, then I can say it's natural for a demon or powerful god to do what he does as well, because--according to you--since a powerful god's power does not come from an outside source, it is not a super power.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 18:33:19 GMT -5
1.The Yellow Sun isn't magical but it doesn't exist on Krypton and therefore it's an unnatural source. 2.Powers ARE limited to an outside source.Something can't be a power if you can learn it because that means it's open to everyone.The ability to manipulate chi is something every living being has the capacity to do and therefore there is no powers involved.If someone can teach you to fly than it's no longer superhuman.DBZ is poorly written nonsense and no amount of chi will allow you to fly but for the sake of my argument.Flight for DBZ characters is not a power. 3.Beasts large hands and feet aren't a power because they don't do anything by themselves.The way he uses them for agility is the power.A human having his same characteristics by being mutated has no powers because they don't also have superhuman agility and the ability to use their feet the way a monkey does in acrobatics. I CAN have it both ways with the skrulls because my definition still fits.Shapeshifting for Mystique is a power because there is a source.She has the X-gene.For skrulls it's not because they can all do it.Super-Skrulls are their superheroes as mutants are for humans.Super Skrulls can do what ordinary skrulls cannot. I know you weren't speaking about the Marvels but I WAS.They are the Kree's superheroes.What all Kree can do is irrelevant.Those aren't powers.What the Marvels and Hulkling can do are powers because they all have a source.Their abilities are extraordinary to the Kree. 4.My argument about gods cannot be compared to chi.All Asgardians are technically gods but the only ones that have any actual powers are the ones that were granted them.Class 30 strength isn't a power for Asgardians.Most of them are at least that strong.Thor's abilities however are extraordinary to them because none of them will ever reach that level without being granted abilities from Odin. You cannot compare manipulating reality to manipulating chi.Reality is external,chi is internal.Also one is a magical effect the other is natural. Karate Kid doesn't have powers because he doesn't have a source.Nobody gave him his abilities.He worked for them. 1. An unnatural source that, by itself does nothing. It doesn't give anyone anything. It's just a ball of plasma held together by gravity. Saying that it's the source of a Kryptonian's super power is like saying eating carrots is the source of humans being able to see well. Yes, it helps, there's no disputing that, but carrots by themselves are just carrots. Not the source of seeing well. It's thanks to the physiology of the human body that allows the consumption of carrots to use the vitamin A within the carrots to improve vision. 2. I could say that Marvel is poorly written as well for allowing the manipulation of chi to result in shooting energy blasts. I could say Star Wars is poorly written for allowing the Force, "an energy field created by all living things, that surrounds and penetrates living beings and binds the galaxy together," according to Obi-Wan (sounds an awful lot like chi to me) for allowing its characters the ability to use telekinesis. No matter how you spin it, it's a super power regardless of it coming from an outside source or not. 3. Notice that in defining what Beast's super power was, you specifically mentioned that it was his action, "The way he uses them for agility is the power." That tells me that even following along your line of thinking, the power itself is defined as much by the performance more so than the source, because if it was just the source, then him having the X-gene and the large hands and feet would be enough. Now what I'm saying is that if you encompass beings, be they god or alien or mutant or human in spite of having an external source or not, you get a much more fitting definition of what super powers are in the comic world. As long as the action performed is a super one, then that is a super power. I want you to know that I do understand what you're saying. It does make sense to a degree, but at the same time, the definition just doesn't work simply because regardless of the source, the action is what ultimately defines the power. We don't go around saying having a Green Lantern ring is a super power. We say, creating creating constructs with the ring is the super power. We don't go around saying being connected to the speed force is a super power. We say, using the speed force to move faster than light, stealing speed, and lending it is the power. We don't say getting bit by a radioactive spider is a power, but sticking to walls, shooting webs, and reacting faster than normal humans can is. We don't say getting hit by gamma rays is a super power, but turning into some 7 to 8 foot tall monster who can easily lift over a hundred tons and jump a distance of 3 to 4 miles is. The super powers are the actions performed, not the reason for them, and if you don't believe me, look up any comic book character on the vine or any other wiki and tell me what it says their powers are. Matter of fact, I'll give you some links right now. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superhuman_features_and_abilities_in_fictionwww.superpowerlist.com/www.comicvine.com/superpowers/12-49870/4. The gods I were speaking of were the sky fathers, divine beings, elder gods, and high level demons. You know, the ones that can "naturally" manipulate reality. Surtur, Mephisto, Cyttorak, Atum the God Eater, Chthon, Shuma-Gorath, Gaea, Set, Mikaboshi, Darkseid, in other words, beings that are the supposed "sources" of particular set of super powers. If you can go around saying that humans who can shoot energy blasts, punch through mountains, and, in the DBZ universe, fly, is something that's natural and not a super power, then I can say it's natural for a demon or powerful god to do what he does as well, because--according to you--since a powerful god's power does not come from an outside source, it is not a super power. 1.The sun by itself does nothing for humans but for Kryptonians it gives them powers.You don't have to explain to me what the sun is.I know what it is.You cannot compare carrots to the sun.Carrots don't give us powers and they are grown on THIS planet.They are a natural source of energy for humans.If I went to Krypton and ate a carrot that gave me powers.The carrot would be a source.It's an alien carrot.It does not exist naturally on my planet and would GRANT me abilities that other humans don't have. 2.You could say anything is poorly written but DBZ being poorly written had 0 to do with my point.The ability to fly in the DBZ universe is something that can be taught and learned by any being. 3.Beast has superhuman agility which was given to him by the X-gene.Period.His mutation doesn't really have anything to do with the superhuman agility they only enhance it.It would be superhuman regardless. 4.Skyfathers and powerful demons have mystical abilities.Odin's abilites are magical in nature.Zues's abilites are magical in nature.So I don't get what point you are trying to make.Magic is the source.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 19:05:12 GMT -5
1.The sun by itself does nothing for humans but for Kryptonians it gives them powers.You don't have to explain to me what the sun is.I know what it is.You cannot compare carrots to the sun.Carrots don't give us powers and they are grown on THIS planet.They are a natural source of energy for humans.If I went to Krypton and ate a carrot that gave me powers.The carrot would be a source.It's an alien carrot.It does not exist naturally on my planet and would GRANT me abilities that other humans don't have. 2.You could say anything is poorly written but DBZ being poorly written had 0 to do with my point.The ability to fly in the DBZ universe is something that can be taught and learned by any being. 3.Beast has superhuman agility which was given to him by the X-gene.Period.His mutation doesn't really have anything to do with the superhuman agility they only enhance it.It would be superhuman regardless. 4.Skyfathers and powerful demons have mystical abilities.Odin's abilites are magical in nature.Zues's abilites are magical in nature.So I don't get what point you are trying to make.Magic is the source. 1. But the sun isn't an alien sun. It's just a sun. No, there wasn't a yellow sun on the Krypton, but the fact of the matter is that the Kryptonian ability of flight, super strength, super speed, and super everything else is still something that only Kryptonians naturally have. It just wasn't brought out by anyone because no one decided to get on a space ship and fly at a yellow sun. 2. Your point was if everyone can do it, it's not a super power no matter how poorly written it is. And as such, flight in DBZ is not a super power according to you. My point is saying that it doesn't matter how poorly written something is, no matter how many people can do it, if some in any given media performs super feats, it should be conclude that that character has super powers. Using chi, using the force, using magic, using a ring, using a mutant gene, using your alien physiology, it doesn't matter, you're using a super power. 3. Beast has super human agility which was given to him by the X-gene. Yes, that is true. Iron Fist has super human agility which was given to him by his chi. Does it matter whether or not the source is external or internal? No, either way, they both have super human agility, which is considered a super power in the comic world. Period. 4. Then I think we have a different viewpoint on how magic and gods are related. When someone uses magic to invoke the power of a god like Strange invoking the power of Zom, is he using magic to use Zom to use more magic? Because that's what it's sounding like you're saying. Zom is an entity. The mystic/magical forces he controls originates from him. He is the source, not the magic, but him. To him, manipulating the magical forces within him is the same as Iron Fist manipulating the chi within him.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 19:50:50 GMT -5
1.The sun by itself does nothing for humans but for Kryptonians it gives them powers.You don't have to explain to me what the sun is.I know what it is.You cannot compare carrots to the sun.Carrots don't give us powers and they are grown on THIS planet.They are a natural source of energy for humans.If I went to Krypton and ate a carrot that gave me powers.The carrot would be a source.It's an alien carrot.It does not exist naturally on my planet and would GRANT me abilities that other humans don't have. 2.You could say anything is poorly written but DBZ being poorly written had 0 to do with my point.The ability to fly in the DBZ universe is something that can be taught and learned by any being. 3.Beast has superhuman agility which was given to him by the X-gene.Period.His mutation doesn't really have anything to do with the superhuman agility they only enhance it.It would be superhuman regardless. 4.Skyfathers and powerful demons have mystical abilities.Odin's abilites are magical in nature.Zues's abilites are magical in nature.So I don't get what point you are trying to make.Magic is the source. 1. But the sun isn't an alien sun. It's just a sun. No, there wasn't a yellow sun on the Krypton, but the fact of the matter is that the Kryptonian ability of flight, super strength, super speed, and super everything else is still something that only Kryptonians naturally have. It just wasn't brought out by anyone because no one decided to get on a space ship and fly at a yellow sun. 2. Your point was if everyone can do it, it's not a super power no matter how poorly written it is. And as such, flight in DBZ is not a super power according to you. My point is saying that it doesn't matter how poorly written something is, no matter how many people can do it, if some in any given media performs super feats, it should be conclude that that character has super powers. Using chi, using the force, using magic, using a ring, using a mutant gene, using your alien physiology, it doesn't matter, you're using a super power. 3. Beast has super human agility which was given to him by the X-gene. Yes, that is true. Iron Fist has super human agility which was given to him by his chi. Does it matter whether or not the source is external or internal? No, either way, they both have super human agility, which is considered a super power in the comic world. Period. 4. Then I think we have a different viewpoint on how magic and gods are related. When someone uses magic to invoke the power of a god like Strange invoking the power of Zom, is he using magic to use Zom to use more magic? Because that's what it's sounding like you're saying. Zom is an entity. The mystic/magical forces he controls originates from him. He is the source, not the magic, but him. To him, manipulating the magical forces within him is the same as Iron Fist manipulating the chi within him. 1.It not an alien sun to us on earth because we are not aliens on our own planet but it's alien to Kryptonians and therefore not natural to them.What's natural on one planet is not natural on another if it has a different effect on the alien physiology. 2.Again..using chi is to use what's already in you.It's no different from lifting weights.You have muscles.Every person does.Someone who lifts weights will be stronger than me but he doesn't have anything that I cannot achieve.I can also lift weights and become stronger. 3.That's the problem with this analysis.Danny Rand doesn't have superhuman agility.Beast does. 4.When Dr.Strange uses Zom he's using Zom's mystical energy.Zom is Dr.Strange's source, he's not his own source.Zom wasn't born he was created.So even he got his powers from a source.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 20:30:03 GMT -5
1.It not an alien sun to us on earth because we are not aliens on our own planet but it's alien to Kryptonians and therefore not natural to them.What's natural on one planet is not natural on another if it has a different effect on the alien physiology. 2.Again..using chi is to use what's already in you.It's no different from lifting weights.You have muscles.Every person does.Someone who lifts weights will be stronger than me but he doesn't have anything that I cannot achieve.I can also lift weights and become stronger. 3.That's the problem with this analysis.Danny Rand doesn't have superhuman agility.Beast does. 4.When Dr.Strange uses Zom he's using Zom's mystical energy.Zom is Dr.Strange's source, he's not his own source.Zom wasn't born he was created.So even he got his powers from a source. 1. But the fact remains that the actual superhuman abilities--the super powers--stem from the Kryptonians themselves and their physical make up. 2. And again, that's besides the point. In the comic world and especially the DBZ world, chi allows regular humans to perform super human feats. The performance may be the result of the chi, but the action is still due to the super power because regular people can't do that. 3. I don't understand how you can refute Danny having super human agility when he clearly does. He has also shown that he has super human strength. The only difference is that he uses his chi to do so while Beast does not, which brings me back to my "a power is a power despite the explanation behind it" argument. 4. But Zom's not "using" mystical energy, he's a being of it. The power is his. That's why Strange called on him. He wanted to use Zom's power. Zom being the source. Either way, the relationship is still the same. Zom using his mystical energy is the same thing as Danny Rand using his spiritual energy. If Zom isn't his own source, then Rand isn't his own source. So either they're both people/beings using super powers or their both people/beings not using super powers. 5. I feel we've reached the point that in order for the debate to continue, we'll both simply end up repeating what we've said in our last posts, so unless there's something you want to say that hasn't been said, I'm all for whole agree to disagree thing. It was definitely interesting.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 20:41:09 GMT -5
1.It not an alien sun to us on earth because we are not aliens on our own planet but it's alien to Kryptonians and therefore not natural to them.What's natural on one planet is not natural on another if it has a different effect on the alien physiology. 2.Again..using chi is to use what's already in you.It's no different from lifting weights.You have muscles.Every person does.Someone who lifts weights will be stronger than me but he doesn't have anything that I cannot achieve.I can also lift weights and become stronger. 3.That's the problem with this analysis.Danny Rand doesn't have superhuman agility.Beast does. 4.When Dr.Strange uses Zom he's using Zom's mystical energy.Zom is Dr.Strange's source, he's not his own source.Zom wasn't born he was created.So even he got his powers from a source. 1. But the fact remains that the actual superhuman abilities--the super powers--stem from the Kryptonians themselves and their physical make up. 2. And again, that's besides the point. In the comic world and especially the DBZ world, chi allows regular humans to perform super human feats. The performance may be the result of the chi, but the action is still due to the super power because regular people can't do that. 3. I don't understand how you can refute Danny having super human agility when he clearly does. He has also shown that he has super human strength. The only difference is that he uses his chi to do so while Beast does not, which brings me back to my "a power is a power despite the explanation behind it" argument. 4. But Zom's not "using" mystical energy, he's a being of it. The power is his. That's why Strange called on him. He wanted to use Zom's power. Zom being the source. Either way, the relationship is still the same. Zom using his mystical energy is the same thing as Danny Rand using his spiritual energy. If Zom isn't his own source, then Rand isn't his own source. So either they're both people/beings using super powers or their both people/beings not using super powers. 5. I feel we've reached the point that in order for the debate to continue, we'll both simply end up repeating what we've said in our last posts, so unless there's something you want to say that hasn't been said, I'm all for whole agree to disagree thing. It was definitely interesting. 1.The fact also remains without a source from another planet they don't have powers.They aren't born with powers.Therefore a source gives all Kryptonians powers. 2.Feats aren't powers.Powers are powers.What Goku does is his "abilities" and "techniques" not his powers. 3.I'm not refuting it.It's a fact.Daniel Rand doesn't have superhuman agility and he never did.Through is own admission he unable to duplicate the agility of Matt Murdock who's agility is peak human.Iron Fist has never done anything agility wise that makes his agility superhuman. 4.You still aren't getting it.Zom was created with powers.Danny Rand wasn't created how he is.He had chi at birth but could not do what he does with it now at birth.Whomever or whatever created Zom gave him powers.It's not the same as a human training to be able to use their chi...not even close.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 21:33:16 GMT -5
1.The fact also remains without a source from another planet they don't have powers.They aren't born with powers.Therefore a source gives all Kryptonians powers. 2.Feats aren't powers.Powers are powers.What Goku does is his "abilities" and "techniques" not his powers. 3.I'm not refuting it.It's a fact.Daniel Rand doesn't have superhuman agility and he never did.Through is own admission he unable to duplicate the agility of Matt Murdock who's agility is peak human.Iron Fist has never done anything agility wise that makes his agility superhuman. 4.You still aren't getting it.Zom was created with powers.Danny Rand wasn't created how he is.He had chi at birth but could not do what he does with it now at birth.Whomever or whatever created Zom gave him powers.It's not the same as a human training to be able to use their chi...not even close. 1. But they are born with powers. The sun just brings it out, just like training brings out the ability to use chi. You keep saying they're not the same thing, but it really is. 2. So now you're saying super human abilities are not powers? Flying, shooting down moons, moving at hyper sonic speeds, shaking the planet by "powering up" isn't a super human power, but a super human ability? The reason that doesn't make sense to me is because powers themselves are ability. The super human power of flight is the ability to fly. The super human power of strength is the ability to lift things that someone without that ability can't lift. 3. So what if he can't mimic Daredevil's abilities down to the letter, he can still perform super human feats. You saying power does not equal feats is correct, but that doesn't mean power is not the cause of super human feats. If it's not, then please tell me how this, this, this, and especially this is not super strength. Please tell me how using chi to punch a hellicarrier is not super strength. Please tell me how using chi to dodge a bullet from a gun right in front of him is not super agility. Now, I know that you probably already know of Iron Fist's capabilities, but saying that they're not caused by super powers doesn't make sense to me, because those are the very things people with super powers do. Need we go back to the dispute that started the thread to begin with? Karate Kid dodging a character with super speed's heat vision. You've seen the scan, you know the feat, and the supposed reason behind it was him staying ahead of the blasts. Experience taught him that, but comic reading has taught me that in order to do that, you have to have some level of super human agility, which he clearly does, and guess what, super human agility is a super power. That is fact. 4. You're right, I'm not getting it because there's nothing all that complicated to get. Zom was created/born with mystical energy. Danny was created/born with spiritual energy. Danny training in order to use his powers doesn't change the fact that he has them to use, just like Zom not training to use his energy doesn't mean that he doesn't have them to use either. It's not all that different at all so the comparison should still stand. So either both mystical energy and spiritual energy are forms of super powers to Zom and Danny or they're not.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 22:52:25 GMT -5
1.The fact also remains without a source from another planet they don't have powers.They aren't born with powers.Therefore a source gives all Kryptonians powers. 2.Feats aren't powers.Powers are powers.What Goku does is his "abilities" and "techniques" not his powers. 3.I'm not refuting it.It's a fact.Daniel Rand doesn't have superhuman agility and he never did.Through is own admission he unable to duplicate the agility of Matt Murdock who's agility is peak human.Iron Fist has never done anything agility wise that makes his agility superhuman. 4.You still aren't getting it.Zom was created with powers.Danny Rand wasn't created how he is.He had chi at birth but could not do what he does with it now at birth.Whomever or whatever created Zom gave him powers.It's not the same as a human training to be able to use their chi...not even close. 1. But they are born with powers. The sun just brings it out, just like training brings out the ability to use chi. You keep saying they're not the same thing, but it really is. 2. So now you're saying super human abilities are not powers? Flying, shooting down moons, moving at hyper sonic speeds, shaking the planet by "powering up" isn't a super human power, but a super human ability? The reason that doesn't make sense to me is because powers themselves are ability. The super human power of flight is the ability to fly. The super human power of strength is the ability to lift things that someone without that ability can't lift. 3. So what if he can't mimic Daredevil's abilities down to the letter, he can still perform super human feats. You saying power does not equal feats is correct, but that doesn't mean power is not the cause of super human feats. If it's not, then please tell me how this, this, this, and especially this is not super strength. Please tell me how using chi to punch a hellicarrier is not super strength. Please tell me how using chi to dodge a bullet from a gun right in front of him is not super agility. Now, I know that you probably already know of Iron Fist's capabilities, but saying that they're not caused by super powers doesn't make sense to me, because those are the very things people with super powers do. Need we go back to the dispute that started the thread to begin with? Karate Kid dodging a character with super speed's heat vision. You've seen the scan, you know the feat, and the supposed reason behind it was him staying ahead of the blasts. Experience taught him that, but comic reading has taught me that in order to do that, you have to have some level of super human agility, which he clearly does, and guess what, super human agility is a super power. That is fact. 4. You're right, I'm not getting it because there's nothing all that complicated to get. Zom was created/born with mystical energy. Danny was created/born with spiritual energy. Danny training in order to use his powers doesn't change the fact that he has them to use, just like Zom not training to use his energy doesn't mean that he doesn't have them to use either. It's not all that different at all so the comparison should still stand. So either both mystical energy and spiritual energy are forms of super powers to Zom and Danny or they're not. 1.You're twisting things.Kryptonians on Krypton don't have powers there for they aren't born with powers.None of the things Superman does on earth can he do on his homeworld. 2.Feats are not powers.That's what I said.Blasting through a moon is a feat..not a power.Energy manipulation would be the power but since Master Roshi who performed the feat isn't an energy manipulator there's no power.Again,martial arts is not a power.The Kamehameha is a technique not a powerIf you don't believe that doesn't count as energy manipulation...name one energy manipulator that has ever absorbed or redirected chi? 3.He doesn't have superhuman agility period.If Daredevil has better agility feats and he's not superhuman than neither is Iron Fist.We're not talking about being superhuman by real life standards but by comic standards..and in comics Iron Fist is only peak human in agility.I know what his feats are.They aren't superhuman.Karate Kid and every character with no powers can tag and dodge characters with superhuman speed.That's just DC's sh#tty writing.I've seen street levelers tag and dodge Flash's and Kryptonians repeatedly.It's for the plot and still doesn't make them superhuman.Batman,Batgirl,Wildcat,etc. are all still peak human characters. 4.It has never been stated how Zom came to be so we really don't know how he got his powers or where he got them from so this comparison is ridiculous to begin with.All that is known is that magic grants beings powers and Zom is a mystical being.If there is a source or not is all speculation because that part of his story doesn't exist. DC comics refuses to say that Karate Kid has any powers.You can't argue with the creators.There isn't one source published by them that states he has any powers.Not wiki...not DC's wiki either.In fact wiki says that his feats are SIMULATED as to seem superhuman he's not ACTUALLY superhuman.Same with Iron Fist.He can hit extremely hard SIMULATING a super strength punch..he doesn't in fact have superhuman strength.In fact I would even go as far as to say Wolverine and Captain America are physically stronger than him.Neither one fit into a superhuman strength class.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 2, 2011 23:31:05 GMT -5
*finishes reading thread carefully*
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 23:38:06 GMT -5
@cry Caine
Alright, fair enough on all points. I'm still iffy on a couple of things though, like energy manipulators not being able to absorb or redirect another person's chi. Vulcan seems like he should be apt to do that, and in numerous debates on the vine, it's been argued that DBZ characters would lose to energy manipulators because chi strictly defined is spiritual/lifeforce energy, and when a character's power is "the absorption and manipulation of all forms of energy" then it shouldn't really take a stretch of the imagination for such a character to do just that. I could also see Silver Surfer absorb and redirect chi if it were ever used on him. In fact the Power Cosmic is supposed to be a source of energy or force that replaces the aura of whoever's imbued with it, so in a way the PC is just another form of chi/spiritual energy/aura to begin with, but whatever. I'm cool with dropping that.
But the one thing that's still bothering me and that's the definition of a super power itself. And I guess it's not really the definition of it itself. You gave yours, and I'm still staying with mine, but the reason behind it. What's the point of calling something a "super power" if it's not meant to be related to the reader? Sure, there are common comic book tropes like dodging bullets and such, but that kinda stuff happens in every medium, comics, anime, movies. Yeah, it's bad writing, but that's just something we all know to suspend our disbelief to.
My question is where does the line of suspension cease and where does the line of super powers, "simulated" or not, come in? I think that's the main reason I'm having trouble with accepting your definition of super powers, because I think mine works better with defining that line. Stick to observing from the viewpoint of the reader, ignoring the tropes that are common with all forms of media, and you have your answer. I'm not seeing that answer with your definition, so before this discussion draws to a close, could you clarify that for me?
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 23:59:09 GMT -5
@cry Caine Alright, fair enough on all points. I'm still iffy on a couple of things though, like energy manipulators not being able to absorb or redirect another person's chi. Vulcan seems like he should be apt to do that, and in numerous debates on the vine, it's been argued that DBZ characters would lose to energy manipulators because chi strictly defined is spiritual/lifeforce energy, and when a character's power is "the absorption and manipulation of all forms of energy" then it shouldn't really take a stretch of the imagination for such a character to do just that. I could also see Silver Surfer absorb and redirect chi if it were ever used on him. In fact the Power Cosmic is supposed to be a source of energy or force that replaces the aura of whoever's imbued with it, so in a way the PC is just another form of chi/spiritual energy/aura to begin with, but whatever. I'm cool with dropping that. But the one thing that's still bothering me and that's the definition of a super power itself. And I guess it's not really the definition of it itself. You gave yours, and I'm still staying with mine, but the reason behind it. What's the point of calling something a "super power" if it's not meant to be related to the reader? Sure, there are common comic book tropes like dodging bullets and such, but that kinda stuff happens in every medium, comics, anime, movies. Yeah, it's bad writing, but that's just something we all know to suspend our disbelief to. My question is where does the line of suspension cease and where does the line of super powers, "simulated" or not, come in? I think that's the main reason I'm having trouble with accepting your definition of super powers, because I think mine works better with defining that line. Stick to observing from the viewpoint of the reader, ignoring the tropes that are common with all forms of media, and you have your answer. I'm not seeing that answer with your definition, so before this discussion draws to a close, could you clarify that for me? Vulcan is more than an energy manipulator.I've seen him shut of Rachel and Cyclops' powers all together.The fact remains we've never seen any energy manipulator or absorb manipulate or absorb chi.Most energy manipulation deals with the electromagnetic spectrum and chi is definitely not on that. As far as what you don't get about my definition.I'm not really sure what you're asking me to clarify.I thought this was more black and white than this is being made.There are no powers without a source.That's it.That's all.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 3, 2011 0:22:12 GMT -5
@cry Caine Alright, fair enough on all points. I'm still iffy on a couple of things though, like energy manipulators not being able to absorb or redirect another person's chi. Vulcan seems like he should be apt to do that, and in numerous debates on the vine, it's been argued that DBZ characters would lose to energy manipulators because chi strictly defined is spiritual/lifeforce energy, and when a character's power is "the absorption and manipulation of all forms of energy" then it shouldn't really take a stretch of the imagination for such a character to do just that. I could also see Silver Surfer absorb and redirect chi if it were ever used on him. In fact the Power Cosmic is supposed to be a source of energy or force that replaces the aura of whoever's imbued with it, so in a way the PC is just another form of chi/spiritual energy/aura to begin with, but whatever. I'm cool with dropping that. But the one thing that's still bothering me and that's the definition of a super power itself. And I guess it's not really the definition of it itself. You gave yours, and I'm still staying with mine, but the reason behind it. What's the point of calling something a "super power" if it's not meant to be related to the reader? Sure, there are common comic book tropes like dodging bullets and such, but that kinda stuff happens in every medium, comics, anime, movies. Yeah, it's bad writing, but that's just something we all know to suspend our disbelief to. My question is where does the line of suspension cease and where does the line of super powers, "simulated" or not, come in? I think that's the main reason I'm having trouble with accepting your definition of super powers, because I think mine works better with defining that line. Stick to observing from the viewpoint of the reader, ignoring the tropes that are common with all forms of media, and you have your answer. I'm not seeing that answer with your definition, so before this discussion draws to a close, could you clarify that for me? Vulcan is more than an energy manipulator.I've seen him shut of Rachel and Cyclops' powers all together.The fact remains we've never seen any energy manipulator or absorb manipulate or absorb chi.Most energy manipulation deals with the electromagnetic spectrum and chi is definitely not on that. As far as what you don't get about my definition.I'm not really sure what you're asking me to clarify.I thought this was more black and white than this is being made.There are no powers without a source.That's it.That's all. And I thought my definition was more black and white as well, but here we are talking about the gray. Allow me to rephrase it then. Super powers--well super human abilities in general--have always been a means to describe something that's well beyond the scope of human limitations. Seeing people like Iron Fist punch through a speeding train is something that should be well beyond the capabilities of any normal human in the real world, because normal people in the real world can't do that, but in the comic world, as stated by the writers, it is. I'm callin' bull on that because I'm looking at the whole scene as someone in the real world. Throughout the discussion, we've been going back and forth between what's super for one person not being super for another. Punching hellicarriers out of the sky, according to your definition of super powers/abilities isn't a super power, but something that "mimics" a super power. You also went on to say that "We're not talking about being superhuman by real life standards but by comic standards." That's the thing that I'm taking issue with now. Why aren't comic standards and "real life" standards the same thing, if the whole concept of super powers, super humans, and super abilities comes from things that literally can't be done in real life? Ignoring the common tropes like dodging bullets and smashing heads through walls and whatever else Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Captain America, and all the other "peak humans" do, when does the notion of "okay, normal people can't do that no matter what the writers want me to believe" come in? Is there a line? Silver may have worded it better. I think one area of dispute that we are having is that I am viewing this from an out of universe perspective, while you and Erik, seemingly, are looking at this from an in-universe perspective. If I happen to wrong about that, let me know, but that is just how this came across to me. As the reader are we supposed to look at the things done with an in universe perspective or an out of universe perspective, and is either one more right than the other?
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 3, 2011 0:54:18 GMT -5
Vulcan is more than an energy manipulator.I've seen him shut of Rachel and Cyclops' powers all together.The fact remains we've never seen any energy manipulator or absorb manipulate or absorb chi.Most energy manipulation deals with the electromagnetic spectrum and chi is definitely not on that. As far as what you don't get about my definition.I'm not really sure what you're asking me to clarify.I thought this was more black and white than this is being made.There are no powers without a source.That's it.That's all. And I thought my definition was more black and white as well, but here we are talking about the gray. Allow me to rephrase it then. Super powers--well super human abilities in general--have always been a means to describe something that's well beyond the scope of human limitations. Seeing people like Iron Fist punch through a speeding train is something that should be well beyond the capabilities of any normal human in the real world, because normal people in the real world can't do that, but in the comic world, as stated by the writers, it is. I'm callin' bull on that because I'm looking at the whole scene as someone in the real world. Throughout the discussion, we've been going back and forth between what's super for one person not being super for another. Punching hellicarriers out of the sky, according to your definition of super powers/abilities isn't a super power, but something that "mimics" a super power. You also went on to say that "We're not talking about being superhuman by real life standards but by comic standards." That's the thing that I'm taking issue with now. Why aren't comic standards and "real life" standards the same thing, if the whole concept of super powers, super humans, and super abilities comes from things that literally can't be done in real life? Ignoring the common tropes like dodging bullets and smashing heads through walls and whatever else Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Captain America, and all the other "peak humans" do, when does the notion of "okay, normal people can't do that no matter what the writers want me to believe" come in? Is there a line? Silver may have worded it better. I think one area of dispute that we are having is that I am viewing this from an out of universe perspective, while you and Erik, seemingly, are looking at this from an in-universe perspective. If I happen to wrong about that, let me know, but that is just how this came across to me. As the reader are we supposed to look at the things done with an in universe perspective or an out of universe perspective, and is either one more right than the other? Comic standards and real life standards are not the same thing.None of what happens in comics can happen in real life.If we were actually to apply real life standards to comics...half these characters wouldn't even exist because the means in which they got their powers would have killed them.Getting bombarded by Gamma Rays doesn't turn you into the Hulk..it kills you. Nothing in comics as far a costumed heroes and villains are concerned can be done in real life.What's peak human or Olympic level in comics doesn't at all reflect what ACTUAL humans can do. Everything done with chi in comics is outlandish and would not and could not actually happen in real life.Chi increases the strength of and attacks in real life...it doesn't allow you to ground Helicarriers and take massive explosions.It doesn't go that far. This is why i'm looking at this from a comic perspective because there is no real life in comics.Comic universes are an imitation of real life. So in comic terms for a human to be able to amp their chi to the point of what Iron Fist does.That's in the realm of possibility for all humans.I have yet to see a chi feat that's actually doable by real people and that's even on an amateur level.Daredevil's first chi feat was purifying the soul of a dead Elektra.That doesn't happen in real life. I don't look at comics from the perspective of this stuff possibly being real life.I apply real life at the minimum level you can use real life to explain somethings in comics but it only goes so far.Even the weakest of comic showings are out of the realm of human possibility.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 3, 2011 1:02:32 GMT -5
So because nothing regarding a comic book character's capabilities can be mimicked in real life, you have to use what the writers lay out for you. An in universe perspective is the perspective the reader should have at all times. Cool, cool. I say that wraps things up quite nicely. Good discussion.
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