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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 1:14:24 GMT -5
Now that's interesting. This is sorta coming from left field, but would you consider Superman--or any Kryptonian for that matter--beings with super powers? Yes.Superman and all other Kryptonians are granted powers by our yellow sun and therefore that is an unnatural source because if i'm mistaken the sun on their planet doesn't grant them the same abilities. For most alien life forms I wouldn't consider the abilities they have powers because most beings of that kind have the same abilities. Like all Skrulls can shapeshift.That's a power for someone like Mystique but not for them because all Skrulls can do it. See to me, that doesn't really make sense. I don't think you can say it's a super power for one person and not a super power for another. If that were the case, the concept of super powers wouldn't exist. All gods don't have super powers, because gods inertly have to power to do as they please. All demons don't have super powers because as a demon, they're already granted certain abilities. But if a human decides to study magic that allows him to do the same thing a demon or a god or an alien under yellow sunlight does, it's suddenly super. I always figured that the point of classifying super powers to begin with was for us as the reader to see exactly how powerful a particular character in the comic world actually is, regardless of that character's race or power source, because all that really boils down to is an explanation of why that particular character is powerful to begin with. Steve Rogers and Bruce Wayne both have different explanations as to why they're peak human, the bottom line is, they're both peak human. Superman and Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman have different reasons for being super fast and super strong, but the fact of the matter is, they're all super. Just because Superman was born that way doesn't automatically mean he doesn't have super powers. Just because Captain Marvel was given his powers by a wizard doesn't automatically mean his super powers are more super powery than the others. The same should hold true for the chi argument. Manipulating chi to perform super human feats should make someone super regardless of the potential ability for everyone else being able to do it, because the result in itself is something that is super.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 1:15:48 GMT -5
Yes.Superman and all other Kryptonians are granted powers by our yellow sun and therefore that is an unnatural source because if i'm mistaken the sun on their planet doesn't grant them the same abilities. This is confusing. Yellow solar radiation never just magically grants Kryptonians powers. They receive powers from yellow sunlight because of the absorption and metabolism of solar radiation in their bodies. So, yes, it comes from an outside source, but it would have no effect were it not for Kryptonian physiology. The yellow sun is still a source.Like a GL ring or a Symbiote.They had to be exposed to radiation from another planet to have powers.Superman is beyond a Kryptonian on Krypton as is beyond any human.Any Kryptonian could be exposed to the yellow sun and have powers just like any regular man could get a GL ring or have a symbiote attach itself to them but those things still grant someone who is otherwise powerless...powers.Without the source they are normal people.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 1:27:11 GMT -5
Yes.Superman and all other Kryptonians are granted powers by our yellow sun and therefore that is an unnatural source because if i'm mistaken the sun on their planet doesn't grant them the same abilities. For most alien life forms I wouldn't consider the abilities they have powers because most beings of that kind have the same abilities. Like all Skrulls can shapeshift.That's a power for someone like Mystique but not for them because all Skrulls can do it. See to me, that doesn't really make sense. I don't think you can say it's a super power for one person and not a super power for another. If that were the case, the concept of super powers wouldn't exist. All gods don't have super powers, because gods inertly have to power to do as they please. All demons don't have super powers because as a demon, they're already granted certain abilities. But if a human decides to study magic that allows him to do the same thing a demon or a god or an alien under yellow sunlight does, it's suddenly super. I always figured that the point of classifying super powers to begin with was for us as the reader to see exactly how powerful a particular character in the comic world actually is, regardless of that character's race or power source, because all that really boils down to is an explanation of why that particular character is powerful to begin with. Steve Rogers and Bruce Wayne both have different explanations as to why they're peak human, the bottom line is, they're both peak human. Superman and Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman have different reasons for being super fast and super strong, but the fact of the matter is, they're all super. Just because Superman was born that way doesn't automatically mean he doesn't have super powers. Just because Captain Marvel was given his powers by a wizard doesn't automatically mean his super powers are more super powery than the others. The same should hold true for the chi argument. Manipulating chi to perform super human feats should make someone super regardless of the potential ability for everyone else being able to do it, because the result in itself is something that is super. 1.Superman is granted powers from the sun and Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel have powers granted by the gods.All three have a sources.I never said Supes doesn't have powers.I did say that Skrulls don't for being able to Shapeshift...that would be no different then comparing a person with a freakishly large head to a Watcher.It's not a mutation for Watchers because that's how they look.It's mutation for human beings because that's not how they are supposed to look.The X-gene is a mutation.People born with freakishly large feet and superhuman agility (Beast) are one in a million.All humans aren't born that way therefore those are powers.Demons and Gods have divine\mystical abilities so they can't be lumped with aliens.Aliens have abilities that humans would have to acquire but that are natural to them. 2.Being peak human isn't a power so I don't know what you're getting at with Wayne and Steve. 3.Chi is something found in every single human being.Iron Fist taught Dakota North in like two panels to use it.She was taught to manipulate her own energy.No outside sources.Not solar energy,no magic,her own energy.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 2, 2011 2:12:17 GMT -5
A power is not a power.The source is all that matters.If everyone can has the potential to reach your level then it's not a super power.A regular person can never train to shapeshift or to be able to control gravity...but people can acquire those powers through accidents and by being born with the X-gene. This only applies if you view this from an in-universe point of view. The X-gene is a mutation.Every human doesn't get it and therefore it makes what people can do with it extraordinary.For a Skrull to Shapeshift, for a Watcher to be able to teleport etc. those things aren't super to beings of the that race.They all can do it.Those are the natural abilities they are born with. What does this have to do with what I asked about in and out of universe perspectives?
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 2, 2011 2:21:28 GMT -5
This is confusing. Yellow solar radiation never just magically grants Kryptonians powers. They receive powers from yellow sunlight because of the absorption and metabolism of solar radiation in their bodies. So, yes, it comes from an outside source, but it would have no effect were it not for Kryptonian physiology. The yellow sun is still a source.Like a GL ring or a Symbiote.They had to be exposed to radiation from another planet to have powers.Superman is beyond a Kryptonian on Krypton as is beyond any human.Any Kryptonian could be exposed to the yellow sun and have powers just like any regular man could get a GL ring or have a symbiote attach itself to them but those things still grant someone who is otherwise powerless...powers.Without the source they are normal people. No, this really is an inapplicable example. First of all, not just anyone can wield a Green Lantern Ring. They are required to have a certain level of willpower and imagination, but even that is, in some cases, not sufficient. BatMan has been found to be incapable of wielding a GL Ring, for instance, despite his will and intellect. As for symbiotes, the symbiote could be attached to literally anyone and grant them a power increase. The difference is that Kryptonians gain powers from yellow sunlight because of their physiology. Symbiotes are not exclusive to certain beings. Kryptonians gaining powers from the sun is. A symbiote to bond itself to a human just as easily as it could a Kryptonian or a Skrull or a Martian or a Titan or a Saturnian or a Zenn-Lavian or anyone else. It is completely universal to any being. The sun empowering a someone is exclusive to Kryptonians. It requires a specific source (a yellow star) and a specific race of beings (a Kryptonian).
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 2:22:48 GMT -5
1.Superman is granted powers from the sun and Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel have powers granted by the gods.All three have a sources.I never said Supes doesn't have powers.I did say that Skrulls don't for being able to Shapeshift...that would be no different then comparing a person with a freakishly large head to a Watcher.It's not a mutation for Watchers because that's how they look.It's mutation for human beings because that's not how they are supposed to look.The X-gene is a mutation.People born with freakishly large feet and superhuman agility (Beast) are one in a million.All humans aren't born that way therefore those are powers. 2.Being peak human isn't a power so I don't know what you're getting at with Wayne and Steve. 3.Chi is something found in every single human being.Iron Fist taught Dakota North in like two panels to use it.She was taught to manipulate her own energy.No outside sources.Not solar energy,no magic,her own energy. 1. The sun isn't really the source. It's a contributing factor, but not the actual source. Otherwise, the sun would be able to grant anyone super powers, and that's simply not the case. It only works for Kryptonians because the source of their abilities more or less in their alien physiology, just like a Skrull's physiology allows him to shape shift. That's what I was trying to get at. Most aliens have natural traits that allow them to do super things. Those natural traits, such as a Kree's super strength, a Skrull's shapeshifting, or a Kryptonian's ability to fly, shoot lasers out of their eyes, create hurricanes with by inhaling and exhaling, looking through walls, and move faster than light in the presence of a yellow sun should be considered super powers. You can't change the perspective for what's super and what's not. We're all speaking from the viewpoint of the reader. If we were jumping around like you're doing, then no one in the comic world would have super powers because what's super for one race or species or entity wouldn't be super for another. 2. I'd be willing to argue that it is, but that's not why it was brought up. According to you, nothing is a power unless it has a source. The source of Steve's "power" is a serum, but Bruce achieved that same "power" by training. They can both physically do roughly the same things. Me bringing this up was just me showing that the source of an ability shouldn't be what defines what is and is not a power. It shouldn't be a power for Mystique and not for a Skrull because of the origin. The end result is they both can transform. Just like the end result for Steve and Bruce is that they're both peak humans. 3. Okay, so what? If Dakota suddenly trains up and gets good enough to punch through walls, she should be classified as having powers too. She would be able to do something that normal people don't do. Powers shouldn't be defined by whether or not it comes from an outside source, because again gods and mystical beings have the power within them to do as they please. No outside sources. A Skrull has the ability--the power to transform. No outside sources. A Martian, according to the DC universe has the power to read minds, shapeshift, regenerate, turn invisible, become intangible, etc. No outside sources. "Not solar energy, no magic, [their] own energy." It's their own natural ability, yes, but it is still a power as far as the reader should be concerned. Now, if the manipulation of chi allows someone to fly (going back to DBZ), punch through mountains, move at hyper sonic speeds, and blow up planets, then that is something that should be considered super and power. If the manipulation of chi in the Marvel universe allows people to make their fist as hard as iron, heal by simply thinking about it (meditation), fire energy blasts, and manipulate electromagnetic energy fields--outside source or not--that's a super power.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 2:29:47 GMT -5
The yellow sun is still a source.Like a GL ring or a Symbiote.They had to be exposed to radiation from another planet to have powers.Superman is beyond a Kryptonian on Krypton as is beyond any human.Any Kryptonian could be exposed to the yellow sun and have powers just like any regular man could get a GL ring or have a symbiote attach itself to them but those things still grant someone who is otherwise powerless...powers.Without the source they are normal people. No, this really is an inapplicable example. First of all, not just anyone can wield a Green Lantern Ring. They are required to have a certain level of willpower and imagination, but even that is, in some cases, not sufficient. BatMan has been found to be incapable of wielding a GL Ring, for instance, despite his will and intellect. As for symbiotes, the symbiote could be attached to literally anyone and grant them a power increase. The difference is that Kryptonians gain powers from yellow sunlight because of their physiology. Symbiotes are not exclusive to certain beings. Kryptonians gaining powers from the sun is. A symbiote to bond itself to a human just as easily as it could a Kryptonian or a Skrull or a Martian or a Titan or a Saturnian or a Zenn-Lavian or anyone else. It is completely universal to any being. The sun empowering a someone is exclusive to Kryptonians. It requires a specific source (a yellow star) and a specific race of beings (a Kryptonian). 1.GL Rings make normal men powerful.Hal Jordan,Kyle Rayner,Guy Gardner and ever other human GL has no powers without the ring.The fact that they need willpower is beside the point because their willpower does nothing for them without the ring.Same goes for Kryptonians the fact that they can naturally absorb yellow sun light to become powerful is beside the point because without the sun's radiation they are powerless.No source no powers. 2.Martians have the same powers on every planet as do Skrulls and most other alien races.Kryptonians don't.On their homeworld they are the same as humans.They have the same human functions.No noticible mutations they whole 9 but on earth they are extremely powerful.They are GRANTED powers by our sun.The sun is a source. 3.Symbiotes don't require sources for their abilities,Hosts require symbiotes for theirs.Like Heralds require Galactus for their abilities.Without Galactus giving them powers they would have nothing.Symbiotes are as much a source as the sun or a GL ring.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 2:49:21 GMT -5
1.Superman is granted powers from the sun and Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel have powers granted by the gods.All three have a sources.I never said Supes doesn't have powers.I did say that Skrulls don't for being able to Shapeshift...that would be no different then comparing a person with a freakishly large head to a Watcher.It's not a mutation for Watchers because that's how they look.It's mutation for human beings because that's not how they are supposed to look.The X-gene is a mutation.People born with freakishly large feet and superhuman agility (Beast) are one in a million.All humans aren't born that way therefore those are powers. 2.Being peak human isn't a power so I don't know what you're getting at with Wayne and Steve. 3.Chi is something found in every single human being.Iron Fist taught Dakota North in like two panels to use it.She was taught to manipulate her own energy.No outside sources.Not solar energy,no magic,her own energy. 1. The sun isn't really the source. It's a contributing factor, but not the actual source. Otherwise, the sun would be able to grant anyone super powers, and that's simply not the case. It only works for Kryptonians because the source of their abilities more or less in their alien physiology, just like a Skrull's physiology allows him to shape shift. That's what I was trying to get at. Most aliens have natural traits that allow them to do super things. Those natural traits, such as a Kree's super strength, a Skrull's shapeshifting, or a Kryptonian's ability to fly, shoot lasers out of their eyes, create hurricanes with by inhaling and exhaling, looking through walls, and move faster than light in the presence of a yellow sun should be considered super powers. You can't change the perspective for what's super and what's not. We're all speaking from the viewpoint of the reader. If we were jumping around like you're doing, then no one in the comic world would have super powers because what's super for one race or species or entity wouldn't be super for another. 2. I'd be willing to argue that it is, but that's not why it was brought up. According to you, nothing is a power unless it has a source. The source of Steve's "power" is a serum, but Bruce achieved that same "power" by training. They can both physically do roughly the same things. Me bringing this up was just me showing that the source of an ability shouldn't be what defines what is and is not a power. It shouldn't be a power for Mystique and not for a Skrull because of the origin. The end result is they both can transform. Just like the end result for Steve and Bruce is that they're both peak humans. 3. Okay, so what? If Dakota suddenly trains up and gets good enough to punch through walls, she should be classified as having powers too. She would be able to do something that normal people don't do. Powers shouldn't be defined by whether or not it comes from an outside source, because again gods and mystical beings have the power within them to do as they please. No outside sources. A Skrull has the ability--the power to transform. No outside sources. A Martian, according to the DC universe has the power to read minds, shapeshift, regenerate, turn invisible, become intangible, etc. No outside sources. "Not solar energy, no magic, [their] own energy." It's their own natural ability, yes, but it is still a power as far as the reader should be concerned. Now, if the manipulation of chi allows someone to fly (going back to DBZ), punch through mountains, move at hyper sonic speeds, and blow up planets, then that is something that should be considered super and power. If the manipulation of chi in the Marvel universe allows people to make their fist as hard as iron, heal by simply thinking about it (meditation), fire energy blasts, and manipulate electromagnetic energy fields--outside source or not--that's a super power. 1.The Sun is the most important factor in the equation.In the form that gives him powers it doesn't even exist on his planet.All Kryptonians can absorb sunlight and convert it to energy but converting sunlight isn't a power.Heat Vision,Flight,Super Speed,Super Strength etc. are powers and without the sun Superman can't do any of those things. 2.How can you say that if you jump around like i'm doing then nobody has powers when I just named 3 people in the post you quoted who do have powers and explained why they do.Daredevil has powers.Superhuman senses are a power..you know why? Because they are a physical mutation of a human being by way of a chemical accident.Moon Knight HAD powers.He was granted superhuman strength BY Khonshu. 3.Steve Rogers doesn't have any powers..which is why I am confused as to what you are arguing.The SSS didn't give Captain America super powers it boosted natural human factors putting him at the peak of human ability.The operative word in "peak human" is HUMAN.There are peak humans in Marvel who haven't take the SSS.The Super Soldier serum is for people who would otherwise be damn near sub-human in physical ability.Steve Rogers before the SSS was no more a soldier than anyone on this forum. 4.Dakota North doesn't have any powers.That was the point I was trying to make.The fact that in a short time someone could teach a regular person to use similar abilities proves my point.Could Colossus teach someone to have organic steel skin? Could Firestar teach someone to manipulate microwaves? Of course not.Thus my point.They are manipulating any natural human ability.They are using abilities they were given.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 3:35:43 GMT -5
1.The Sun is the most important factor in the equation.In the form that gives him powers it doesn't even exist on his planet.All Kryptonians can absorb sunlight and convert it to energy but converting sunlight isn't a power.Heat Vision,Flight,Super Speed,Super Strength etc. are powers and without the sun Superman can't do any of those things. 2.How can you say that if you jump around like i'm doing then nobody has powers when I just named 3 people in the post you quoted who do have powers and explained why they do.Daredevil has powers.Superhuman senses are a power..you know why? Because they are a physical mutation of a human being by way of a chemical accident.Moon Knight HAD powers.He was granted superhuman strength BY Khonshu. 3.Steve Rogers doesn't have any powers..which is why I am confused as to what you are arguing.The SSS didn't give Captain America super powers it boosted natural human factors putting him at the peak of human ability.The operative word in "peak human" is HUMAN.There are peak humans in Marvel who haven't take the SSS.The Super Soldier serum is for people who would otherwise be damn near sub-human in physical ability.Steve Rogers before the SSS was no more a soldier than anyone on this forum. 4.Dakota North doesn't have any powers.That was the point I was trying to make.The fact that in a short time someone could teach a regular person to use similar abilities proves my point.Could Colossus teach someone to have organic steel skin? Could Firestar teach someone to manipulate microwaves? Of course not.Thus my point.They are manipulating any natural human ability.They are using abilities they were given. 1. But the powers come from the Kryptonian, not the sun light. Saying that the sun is the source of a Kryptonian's power to me is like saying knowing how to manipulate chi is the source of being able to manipulate chi. The ability is there in the Kryptonian. The sun just brings it out, just like the ability to manipulate chi is in every human but only brought out by knowing how to manipulate it. 2. You named Superman (which we're debating on in point 1), the Skrulls, a Watcher's head, and Beast's large hands and feet. You said that the Skrulls' ability to shapeshift is not a power to them because everyone in their race can do it, while a mutant like Mystique, who has the same power of shapeshifting does have a power because it comes from her being a mutant. That's changing the viewpoint, thus redefining what is super. If we were to bring up others, I could just as easily say that's not a super power because there's another race of beings that have that same ability. Taking Daredevil for instance. His super hearing is looked at as being a super power for humans, but would it be a super power for bats? No, because all bats have that ability. It's called echolocation. You now bring up Moon Knight's former super strength. It's a power, but you know who else has comparable super strength? The Krees, but according to you, they don't have super powers because they're born that way. As you can see, changing viewpoints and perspectives in effect redefine what's super and what's not, and if we keep doing that, then there's no reason to call anything super at all. That's why it's important to look at things from one common standpoint, and since the one thing you and I and everyone else on this board have in common is that we're all comic book readers, so it's only natural that when defining what's super and what's a power to define it in terms of where we as the readers see it, and as readers, we know that it is impossible for someone to like us to change their appearance on a molecular level, fly, and so on. I think that's what Silver was getting at with looking at things from an "in universe" perspective as opposed to an "out of universe" one. 3. Again, I was merely arguing against your outside source = power point, not necessarily the mechanics of the serum, but since it's causing so much confusion, let's drop it. 4. The power is the chi manipulation though. As you said, every human has the ability to learn and master it, but let's switch races real quick. Viltrumites all have super strength, speed, and flight. The potential's there, just like the potential for chi manipulation is there for humans. Omni-man and the rest of the Viltrumites have essentially taught Invincible how to use his powers by simply challenging him in battle. It's all a natural ability, and unlike Kryptonians, it's not triggered by sunlight. Now from the standpoint of the reader, can you honestly tell me that flying 250 times the speed of light, bench pressing at the very least 400 tons, and super healing are not super powers? If so, then you're switching perspectives again, and if not, then the same thing can be said for manipulating chi in comics.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 4:00:53 GMT -5
1.The Sun is the most important factor in the equation.In the form that gives him powers it doesn't even exist on his planet.All Kryptonians can absorb sunlight and convert it to energy but converting sunlight isn't a power.Heat Vision,Flight,Super Speed,Super Strength etc. are powers and without the sun Superman can't do any of those things. 2.How can you say that if you jump around like i'm doing then nobody has powers when I just named 3 people in the post you quoted who do have powers and explained why they do.Daredevil has powers.Superhuman senses are a power..you know why? Because they are a physical mutation of a human being by way of a chemical accident.Moon Knight HAD powers.He was granted superhuman strength BY Khonshu. 3.Steve Rogers doesn't have any powers..which is why I am confused as to what you are arguing.The SSS didn't give Captain America super powers it boosted natural human factors putting him at the peak of human ability.The operative word in "peak human" is HUMAN.There are peak humans in Marvel who haven't take the SSS.The Super Soldier serum is for people who would otherwise be damn near sub-human in physical ability.Steve Rogers before the SSS was no more a soldier than anyone on this forum. 4.Dakota North doesn't have any powers.That was the point I was trying to make.The fact that in a short time someone could teach a regular person to use similar abilities proves my point.Could Colossus teach someone to have organic steel skin? Could Firestar teach someone to manipulate microwaves? Of course not.Thus my point.They are manipulating any natural human ability.They are using abilities they were given. 1. But the powers come from the Kryptonian, not the sun light. Saying that the sun is the source of a Kryptonian's power to me is like saying knowing how to manipulate chi is the source of being able to manipulate chi. The ability is there in the Kryptonian. The sun just brings it out, just like the ability to manipulate chi is in every human but only brought out by knowing how to manipulate it. 2. You named Superman (which we're debating on in point 1), the Skrulls, a Watcher's head, and Beast's large hands and feet. You said that the Skrulls' ability to shapeshift is not a power to them because everyone in their race can do it, while a mutant like Mystique, who has the same power of shapeshifting does have a power because it comes from her being a mutant. That's changing the viewpoint, thus redefining what is super. If we were to bring up others, I could just as easily say that's not a super power because there's another race of beings that have that same ability. Taking Daredevil for instance. His super hearing is looked at as being a super power for humans, but would it be a super power for bats? No, because all bats have that ability. It's called echolocation. You now bring up Moon Knight's former super strength. It's a power, but you know who else has comparable super strength? The Krees, but according to you, they don't have super powers because they're born that way. As you can see, changing viewpoints and perspectives in effect redefine what's super and what's not, and if we keep doing that, then there's no reason to call anything super at all. That's why it's important to look at things from one common standpoint, and since the one thing you and I and everyone else on this board have in common is that we're all comic book readers, so it's only natural that when defining what's super and what's a power to define it in terms of where we as the readers see it, and as readers, we know that it is impossible for someone to like us to change their appearance on a molecular level, fly, and so on. I think that's what Silver was getting at with looking at things from an "in universe" perspective as opposed to an "out of universe" one. 3. Again, I was merely arguing against your outside source = power point, not necessarily the mechanics of the serum, but since it's causing so much confusion, let's drop it. 4. The power is the chi manipulation though. As you said, every human has the ability to learn and master it, but let's switch races real quick. Viltrumites all have super strength, speed, and flight. The potential's there, just like the potential for chi manipulation is there for humans. Omni-man and the rest of the Viltrumites have essentially taught Invincible how to use his powers by simply challenging him in battle. It's all a natural ability, and unlike Kryptonians, it's not triggered by sunlight. Now from the standpoint of the reader, can you honestly tell me that flying 250 times the speed of light, bench pressing at the very least 400 tons, and super healing are not super powers? If so, then you're switching perspectives again, and if not, then the same thing can be said for manipulating chi in comics. 1.How do the powers come from Kryptonians if they need to be on another planet to have them? You cannot compare what happens to Kryptonians on earth to chi.Even Kryptonians have chi.Every living humanoid organism has chi.The ability to be able to manipulate chi isn't GRANTED it's LEARNED.You cannot learn powers,you can only learn abilities\techniques.Daredevil LEARNED to be a superb gymnast..he was GRANTED superhuman senses. 2.I didn't bring up Superman.You did.I explained to you why he has powers and fits the description I gave of what makes someone super powered. I don't think you understood the point I was making about skrulls and mutants so let's try this again. Beast is a mutant, homo superior.Mutants are essentially humans that are born with a gene that is different from other humans.So by human standards the abilities and deformities of Hank McCoy count as powers because normal human beings aren't born that way. As a skrull..every one of them can shapeshift.That's how they are ALL born.So for them being able to Shapeshift is not a super power.Super Skrulls have SUPER powers because not only can they shapeshift but use the abilities of the characters they mimic. See how that works now? I'm not changing any viewpoints. You only have powers if there is a source.The only Kree with powers are the Marvel's (Ms.Marvel,Captain Marvel,Photon etc.) and Hulkling.Captain Marvel is stronger than most other Kree..why? Because he has a power source. 3.Your point about Rogers doesn't make any sense.The SSS is no different from steroids.There is a source but there are no powers so that "source=powers" doesn't apply to him.We're talking about superhuman ability not enchancing natural human ability. 4.Chi manipulation isn't a power.If everyone can do it then it's not a power.Any person on the planet can manipulate chi.Granted they would need training but that is beside the point.It's like saying anyone on earth can do a math problem.If you were never exposed to math you wouldn't know how to solve the problem but once you learn how to do it..now you can do math.Mostly every human being has the capacity to learn math.Therefore it doesn't make you SUPER to be able to do it. If every being of a certain race can can do the same thing without being exposed to a SOURCE then they don't have powers.If all Kryptonians were powerful on Krypton they wouldn't have powers no matter how far their abilities extend. 5.The bottom line is this.This thread was started because Crom insisted that Karate Kid has powers when he doesn't.All of the abilities he has and has used he owes to martial arts training.Martial arts training is not a source because it's a form of teaching\learning which every normal living being has the capacity to learn and understand. Now every living being could possibly gain powers from the SOURCES that others have like Kryptonians getting powers from the sun.However there is still a source thus they have powers.A Kryptonian with no yellow sun has no powers like a human with no X-gene,radiation,magical enchantments etc. is just a regular human.
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Post by Dane on Jan 2, 2011 7:48:43 GMT -5
In a way I agree with the OP. If you can do something that is literally impossible in the real world, regardless of the explanation for how this is done, you have superhuman powers.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jan 2, 2011 8:52:00 GMT -5
In a way I agree with the OP. If you can do something that is literally impossible in the real world, regardless of the explanation for how this is done, you have superhuman powers. But that's also flawed because, in comics, everyone can do impossible feats. Batman is a quintessential just human hero (For a given value of just), and he does things Olympic athletes can't dream of. Ditto for every other non-powered character. I don't recall Bullseye having "Super aiming-throwing skills" Yet he makes flat out impossible attacks every damn time. My definition of a Superpower is an ability gained through external means and not through normal unaltered human physiology.
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Post by Dane on Jan 2, 2011 9:16:24 GMT -5
In a way I agree with the OP. If you can do something that is literally impossible in the real world, regardless of the explanation for how this is done, you have superhuman powers. But that's also flawed because, in comics, everyone can do impossible feats. Batman is a quintessential just human hero (For a given value of just), and he does things Olympic athletes can't dream of. Ditto for every other non-powered character. I don't recall Bullseye having "Super aiming-throwing skills" Yet he makes flat out impossible attacks every damn time. My definition of a Superpower is an ability gained through external means and not through normal unaltered human physiology. That's quite true and although I didn't state it, I kinda hoped it went without saying by now that Batman just does stuff that would only work in comics. I mean the guy has been slamming peoples heads into brick walls on a nightly basis for 60 years and hasn't caused any permanent damage to date. To me guys like Batman and Captain America represent the peak of human capability. Now sometimes their feats go a bit overboard but you are supposed to look up to their accomplishments as an example of what a human being with incredible determination and focus can achieve. Guys like Superman on the other hand can only be admired for their personal and inner strengths because no matter what we cannot strive toward their physical attributes. That's just my take.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jan 2, 2011 9:32:11 GMT -5
That's quite true and although I didn't state it, I kinda hoped it went without saying by now that Batman just does stuff that would only work in comics. I mean the guy has been slamming peoples heads into brick walls on a nightly basis for 60 years and hasn't caused any permanent damage to date. To me guys like Batman and Captain America represent the peak of human capability. Now sometimes their feats go a bit overboard but you are supposed to look up to their accomplishments as an example of what a human being with incredible determination and focus can achieve. Guys like Superman on the other hand can only be admired for their personal and inner strengths because no matter what we cannot strive toward their physical attributes. That's just my take. I agree with this, but the problem is, despite me taking Batman as an example, everyone can do that. Robin, Batgirl, Catman, Black Widow, Electra, Bullseye, Deadshot etc. As a rule, writers have a very screwed up sense of what a human body actually can do in the real world, as thus don't conform to it. As such, we can't use real life human body as a measuring stick either.
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 2, 2011 14:20:37 GMT -5
Now that's interesting. This is sorta coming from left field, but would you consider Superman--or any Kryptonian for that matter--beings with super powers? Yes and no. Superman is only doing what any kryptonian can do while absorbing the power of yellow sunlight. Without it, he is nothing special. But the source of his power IS an unnatural source.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 15:17:07 GMT -5
Now that's interesting. This is sorta coming from left field, but would you consider Superman--or any Kryptonian for that matter--beings with super powers? Yes and no. Superman is only doing what any kryptonian can do while absorbing the power of yellow sunlight. Without it, he is nothing special. But the source of his power IS an unnatural source. That's what I said.
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 2, 2011 15:19:59 GMT -5
Yes and no. Superman is only doing what any kryptonian can do while absorbing the power of yellow sunlight. Without it, he is nothing special. But the source of his power IS an unnatural source. That's what I said. I figured that you might have. I just did not want to read the last page since I am feeling lazy and there was a lot of back and fourth.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 15:29:41 GMT -5
1.How do the powers come from Kryptonians if they need to be on another planet to have them? You cannot compare what happens to Kryptonians on earth to chi.Even Kryptonians have chi.Every living humanoid organism has chi.The ability to be able to manipulate chi isn't GRANTED it's LEARNED.You cannot learn powers,you can only learn abilities\techniques.Daredevil LEARNED to be a superb gymnast..he was GRANTED superhuman senses. 2.I didn't bring up Superman.You did.I explained to you why he has powers and fits the description I gave of what makes someone super powered. I don't think you understood the point I was making about skrulls and mutants so let's try this again. Beast is a mutant, homo superior.Mutants are essentially humans that are born with a gene that is different from other humans.So by human standards the abilities and deformities of Hank McCoy count as powers because normal human beings aren't born that way. As a skrull..every one of them can shapeshift.That's how they are ALL born.So for them being able to Shapeshift is not a super power.Super Skrulls have SUPER powers because not only can they shapeshift but use the abilities of the characters they mimic. See how that works now? I'm not changing any viewpoints. You only have powers if there is a source.The only Kree with powers are the Marvel's (Ms.Marvel,Captain Marvel,Photon etc.) and Hulkling.Captain Marvel is stronger than most other Kree..why? Because he has a power source. 3.Your point about Rogers doesn't make any sense.The SSS is no different from steroids.There is a source but there are no powers so that "source=powers" doesn't apply to him.We're talking about superhuman ability not enchancing natural human ability. 4.Chi manipulation isn't a power.If everyone can do it then it's not a power.Any person on the planet can manipulate chi.Granted they would need training but that is beside the point.It's like saying anyone on earth can do a math problem.If you were never exposed to math you wouldn't know how to solve the problem but once you learn how to do it..now you can do math.Mostly every human being has the capacity to learn math.Therefore it doesn't make you SUPER to be able to do it. If every being of a certain race can can do the same thing without being exposed to a SOURCE then they don't have powers.If all Kryptonians were powerful on Krypton they wouldn't have powers no matter how far their abilities extend. 5.The bottom line is this.This thread was started because Crom insisted that Karate Kid has powers when he doesn't.All of the abilities he has and has used he owes to martial arts training.Martial arts training is not a source because it's a form of teaching\learning which every normal living being has the capacity to learn and understand. Now every living being could possibly gain powers from the SOURCES that others have like Kryptonians getting powers from the sun.However there is still a source thus they have powers.A Kryptonian with no yellow sun has no powers like a human with no X-gene,radiation,magical enchantments etc. is just a regular human. 1. The sun is the sun. There's nothing magical about it. All it does is burn in the sky. Kryptonians are Kryptonians. They're aliens that have the ability to absorb sunlight differently than other races do. It's all in the Kryptonians. That is something that is only specific to their race. The sun plays as much a role in giving Kryptonians super powers as it does in giving plants food by way of photosynthesis. The plant has the ability to make glucose due to its own physiology, just as the Kryptonian has the ability to use super powers due to its physiology. All the sun does is aid in that natural process. 2. And yes, I can see how going along your line of thinking it wouldn't be possible to learn powers, because according to your line of thinking powers are strictly something that comes from an outside source, but I'm saying that powers aren't limited to being strictly granted from an outside source but should be defined as anything, regardless of explanation, that allows a particular character in the comic world to perform super human feats. Manipulating chi allows for people in the comic world the ability to fly. Flying is a super human feat, and should be considered a super power. The definition shouldn't be limited to some outside source, because other sources, such as chi, can mimic the same abilities. Flying unaided, from the viewpoint of the reader is a super power. Not flying because god gave you the ability to fly, not flying because you're using your own chi to fly, but the action of flying itself. Punching through walls, from the viewpoint of the reader, is a super power. Healing at an accelerated pace is a super power. Not healing because of chi, not healing because of a mutant gene, not healing because you're an alien, but accelerated healing by itself is a super power. The action should be what defines it, not the means to the action, because at the end of the day, the means is just one of a billion possible explanations. According to Wikipedia, According to Comic Vine, Both sites point to the action as being the definition, not the source of the action, because as I said earlier, and as backed by their definitions, the source can be anything, depending on the type of power a character has. 3. But by saying something is a super power for one person while it's not for another is changing viewpoints. Using your Beast example, large hands and feet is indeed something human beings can be born with. It's called Macrocephaly pigmentation large hands feet. It's characterized by, as the name suggests, a large head, and large hands and feet. This is something very rare humans can get. We don't consider it being a super power, but when Hank McCoy gets it as a side effect of the mutant gene, (minus the large head of course) it's suddenly a super power? See, we just changed viewpoints, and by doing so, redefined what a super power was. Using the Skrulls again, by saying their shape shifting is not a super power is conforming to the viewpoint of the Skrulls, but by saying Mystique using her shape shifting is a super power is conforming to the viewpoint of the humans. You're trying to have it both ways, which doesn't work. That's why I don't think your definition of "super powers have to come from a source" is faulted, because something can't be a super power and not a super power at the same time. It either is or isn't. The same thing holds for the Krees. I wasn't speaking about the Marvels, I was speaking about the Kree race as a whole. For them, it's natural to lift things normal humans can't, but if a normal human somehow gains the ability to lift what a Kree can lift, it's a super power. Something can't be a power and not a power at the same time. That just goes against formal logic. 4. Alright, we can drop the SSS argument then. Your argument about chi manipulation can just as easily be said about the gods and skyfathers and mystical demons of the comic world. Since every god has the ability to do something extraordinary, it isn't a power, but every time a god in the comics does something, usually the first thing out of someone's mouth is "Wow, what awesome power he/she has!" So just because everyone in a certain set of beings has the potential to do something whether the beings be gods manipulating reality to humans manipulating chi, doesn't make it any less super because the action that results from it should still be labeled a super power, because from the viewpoint of the reader, that's you, me, and everyone else on this board, it very well is. 5. I saw that thread, and I have to say Crom is right. Karate Kid is performing feats only super humans are capable of doing, and strictly speaking, a super human is a human with super powers, such as super strength, super speed, and super agility, all of which Karate Kid has demonstrated. This is why the definition of super powers should be based on the actions performed instead of the reason behind it. The reason DC chose to give Karate Kid is he trained. That's the same reason Akira Toriyama for people being able to fly unaided. Flying is a super power no matter how you look at it. The action should define the definition, not the reason for it.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 15:36:50 GMT -5
Now that's interesting. This is sorta coming from left field, but would you consider Superman--or any Kryptonian for that matter--beings with super powers? Yes and no. Superman is only doing what any kryptonian can do while absorbing the power of yellow sunlight. Without it, he is nothing special. But the source of his power IS an unnatural source. Okay, you just started reading Invincible. Mad props to you for that, because it's an awesome series. Shout out to Mark, Allen, and Eve. Vultrimites, are like Kryptonians, minus the fact that they need sunlight. Sorry for spoiling this, but it's been shown that a Viltrumite can fly at 250 times the speed of light, at the very least lift 400 tons, heal at an incredible pace, survive planets exploding on them, and hold their breath for up to two weeks easily. Are these or are these not super feats? And are these or are these not powers?
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 2, 2011 15:41:31 GMT -5
Yes and no. Superman is only doing what any kryptonian can do while absorbing the power of yellow sunlight. Without it, he is nothing special. But the source of his power IS an unnatural source. Okay, you just started reading Invincible. Mad props to you for that, because it's an awesome series. Shout out to Mark, Allen, and Eve. Vultrimites, are like Kryptonians, minus the fact that they need sunlight. Sorry for spoiling this, but it's been shown that a Viltrumite can fly at 250 times the speed of light, at the very least lift 400 tons, heal at an incredible pace, survive planets exploding on them, and hold their breath for up to two weeks easily. Are these or are these not super feats? And are these or are these not powers? Compared to what? Humans? Yeah sure. Compared to other Viltrumites, no. They are not powers. To them, that is no more impressive than a human running at 10 miles per hour is to us or lifting 100lbs over their heads or holding their breath for up to 2 minutes.
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