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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 11, 2011 21:56:11 GMT -5
Both know who they're facing. Morals apply. Standard elimination rules. Power NeXus: Deathstroke (sword, blasting bo-staff, assault rifle, combat knife, grenades) DedmanWalkin: Trapster (whatever gear I agreed to) LOCATION: Alcatraz Island. Interior is off limits. Unpopulated. Begin at opposite ends of the island, midday. Neither is visible.
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Matezoide
Team Buster Ledger
Elephants!
Posts: 2,240
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Post by Matezoide on Jan 11, 2011 22:09:07 GMT -5
that....doesnt sounds fair to me....at all,but i am sure Dedman has a plan....or something
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 11, 2011 22:17:20 GMT -5
that....doesnt sounds fair to me....at all,but i am sure Dedman has a plan....or something I have confidence in my chances here, but I learned long ago not to underestimate Dedman's resourcefulness.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 12, 2011 13:48:49 GMT -5
How about the first person named gets the red X and the second person named gets the blue X? I don't care either way but that makes the most sense to me.
Assuming Pete starts on the Blue X, he'll use his boots to walk up the side of that tower to get the lay of the land. Since he prefers to trap rather than outright fight he'll look for the most likely routes to him and then use his lubricant to make traversing those routes completely impossible. After that he'll get back up to his perch and wait. Once he sees Deathstroke approach, which since Pete has the high ground he will. He'll wait for Deathstroke to slip on the lubricant and then fire his glue at him. Pete's standard glue may not stop Slade but the self-replicating glue will because it is powerful enough to immobilize the Thing. With Slade immobile and helpless, Pete can simply cover Slade's face in glue and suffocate him.
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 12, 2011 16:32:11 GMT -5
I'll be back to this after work
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 12, 2011 23:32:26 GMT -5
That's the main part of the strategy that I don't think is going to work out for Trapster. Deathstroke is aware of Trapster's weapons and capabilities. He will realize that Trapster's best chance at winning is to lure him into a trap (pun completely intended) and incapacitate him. Approaching him to fight up close isn't the best idea. Deathstroke has the ability to attack from long range (both with his blasting staff and his assault rifle), whereas Trapster can't attack from very far out. To avoid the traps and incapacitation, Deathstroke will most likely prefer to play it safe and stay at long range if he can. He would probably climb on top of either the lighthouse-thingy or the roof in front of it. This would not only negate Trapster's attempts at having the high ground, but also give him a good aerial view of the island, allowing him to pick Trapster off from a distance if he shows himself. As Trapster is working all over covering likely approach routes with lubricant, it doesn't sound like he's paying much attention to staying under cover. It seems very likely to me that Deathstroke will have at least one good oppurtunity to see Trapster out in the open and snipe him. Given that Deathstroke has ridiculous aim and Trapster does not have sufficient durability to tank a bo staff blast or a burst of bullets, this could be a very quick game-ender.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 13, 2011 1:18:38 GMT -5
No, he is aware of the weapons but not the capabilities. He has a list of items but not the capabilities. All he knows is that he has glue/lubricant launching gauntlets, wall crawling boots, and some form of super glue. As for your attempts to get on the lighthouse, he'll take much longer to get up there because it is farther away from his start location and he'll have to free climb since he can't go inside. See this second image of Alcatraz for what I mean, that light tower is a good third to half of the way across the island. Pete, however, can wall crawl and if need be use his gauntlets like web shooters. His ability to mimic Spidey's web shooters is why Norman Osborn hired him to frame Spidey for murder. He could scale his tower as fast as Spidey. Slade on the hand will need at least 5 minutes to reach the cliff under the lighthouse and then another several minutes to climb the cliff and then another couple minutes to climb the tower. Pete can swing over an area and deploy his lubricant easily. Remember, Pete knows Slade has many ranged weapons as well and will likely consider that. He could swing over to the water tower and spray down the majority of the lighthouse before Slade can even make it up the cliff. Once the lubricant is on the tower it will be completely unclimbable. His lubricant completely negates friction and can defeat wall crawlers as well so Slade will be completely unable to climb the tower. Also the lubricant is not easy to spot but Slade is a smart guy so we'll assume he notices the lubricant and doesn't slip and fall off. Pete is a skilled marksman and his gauntlets can fire in large nets if need be. If Pete can hit Slade with his glue, Slade will be slowed down allowing Pete to hit him with the self replicating glue. Simply put, Pete is more mobile and can limit the movements of Slade turning his mobility against him. All of Slade's famed skills are useless against a foe who can defeat him without being near him. Remember, Green Arrow defeated Slade using an adhesive-based trap to immobilize him. Trapster is a master of adhesive-based traps.
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 13, 2011 2:20:27 GMT -5
By 'capabilities', I meant that Deathstroke is aware of what Trapster is capable of doing with his weapons, which is all the standard stuff you would think of when you hear your opponent has a 'glue gun' or something along those lines. Judging by the positioning of the buildings, I believe that image was taken at an angle. It is not perfectly 90 degrees to the angle from which the first picture was taken. Because of the angle, the lighthouse just looks farther in. Those seem to be rather massively overshot time estimations. Five minutes to reach the cliff under the lighthouse? Deathstroke has slightly superhuman speed, and the distance to the base of the lighthouse really isn't that far at all. Take a look at this picture. I think that, with the other pictures, gives us a very good scope of the island. Deathstroke, who has superhuman speed, will take five minutes to run from the edge of the shrubbery to the base of the hill where the lighthouse is? The island is not that big. I could throw a rock that distance. Deathstroke will be able to make it to the base of the hill in a matter of seconds. And with his speed and strength, climbing to the top of the tower (or the roof of the building, whichever one he prefers) won't take a heck of a lot longer. Are you saying Trapster will swing across 3/4 of the island and coat the entire lighthouse in lubricant in less than the amount of time that it would take Deathstroke to run to the lighthouse? Seriously? You seem to be heavily underestimating Deathstroke's speed and Trapster's distance from the lighthouse, and heavily overestimating Trapster's amount of lubricant (coating the entire lighthouse and all possible paths to his primary position?) and the speed at which he can traverse the island while attempting to spray all major pathways with lubricant. Furthermore, do you really think it's a tactically sound idea for Trapster to try to coat the lighthouse with lube while Deathstroke is close by? The process will take a few seconds at the very least, and he will be leaving himself completely exposed and available to taking a few bullets to the chest. Deathstroke is a distance fighter here. Any time Trapster allows himself to be seen from a distance, he's putting himself in serious danger. Do you know what his maximum range is? I can not imagine him being able to shoot glue more than perhaps 50 yards at the most. Simply put, Deathstroke can kill Pete with a single sucessful attack, and he can attack from MUCH farther away than Pete can. Defeating Deathstroke without being near him would require Deathstroke allowing himself to be caught in one of Pete's lube/glue traps. Since Pete does not have time before the fight to set up traps and since Deathstroke is not nearly stupid enough to walk blindly into one of the traps that Pete will be scrambling about to make, that just isn't going to work. I have not seen the scans nor heard the details on that fight, so I really can't comment. And Deathstroke is a master at looking down a barrel and shooting someone in the head while they are running around out in the open trying to set up traps.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 13, 2011 4:50:54 GMT -5
I apologize I thought the island was much bigger than it was. I looked it up and it is actually only 22 acres. That puts the dimensions between 1600 x 600 to 1800 x 400 feet.
Slade's super speed refers to combat movement, who is faster Bruce Lee or Usain Bolt? For combat movement, Bruce is, but for running Usain will leave Bruce in the dust. How fast can Slade run? That is the issue here not how fast are his reflexes or movements are. Trapster, via webslinging, can move at probably 100 miles an hour. I have rounded a bit to make the math easier for both of us. Now the problem with all of this is that Trapster can ignore any and all obstacles thanks to his equipment, Deathstroke will have to run to the cliff, scale the cliff, and then scale the tower.
His glue gauntlets have comparable range to a web shooter so about 150 feet or so. The important thing to remember here is that while Pete knows the range of an assault rifle, Slade has no idea the range of Trapster's gauntlets. They'll both be cautious here which means Slade won't be running full bore and Trapster won't be staying still. Whilst webslinging forward he can likely use his own 100 mile an hour momentum to extend that range even further meaning he could coat it with a shot from a distance. The Lighthouse is the highest point on the map and the best position for anyone with a rifle. The line formed between the smokestack and the water tower and the Lighthouse is straight enough to mean that he should be able to easily hit it before Slade can make it up there.
His lubricant is frictionless meaning he doesn't need to paint the thing just put enough of it on there to make any attempt at climbing or staying balanced on top impossible. He is a skilled marksmen firing a spreading projectile, he might even get some lube on Deathstroke. I never said all possible routes just routes that someone would likely take. Like the ones that present the best tactical advantage to the attacker, those will be lubed up, unless they are small enough that Pete decides glue would be more reasonable. He'll leave the routes that he can easily control open because those are the routes that he wants Slade to use. From the water tower, Pete can see most routes to him on the island as well as the high ground. If the see each other and fire at the same time, his glue will neutralize the bullet or energy blast as it can take Human Torch level heat.
Pete can kill Slade with a successful single attack, that is useless to mention. His range is pointless here because Slade still has to be able to outmaneuver Pete which he can't. Don't bother bringing up any Flash references as they all are either PIS or required hefty prep.
This is all assuming that Pete goes offensive. If he goes defense, we stalemate or Slade loses.
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 13, 2011 12:31:05 GMT -5
I don't know of any feats he has concerning his top running speed, but I think it's safe to assume that if all his other physical capabilities are on superhuman levels, his running speed must be at least peak human, if not superhuman.
That seems to be a very high estimation. The speed you get from web-swinging comes from falling downwards, gaining speed and momentum from gravity, and then changing direction so your momentum carries you horizontally. Spider-Man could probably reach 100 mph or more in Manhattan, but only because the buildings from which he swings are all several hundred feet tall. Gravity can build him up a ton of momentum when he has that much space to fall. The buildings around Trapster are all just 2-3 stories tall. There's no realistic way he could get up to 100 miles an hour. His web placement and timing would have to be absolutely flawless. Play a Spider-Man video game and start web-swinging around in a place where all the buildings are just two or three stories tall. 100 mph just isn't going to happen.
So you're saying that the very first thing Pete will do at the very beginning of the fight is swing to the other side of the island and cover the lighthouse in lubricant? I thought you said before that he would focus on lubing up all the major pathways leading to his primary position.
It's the best position, but it's not the only good one. There are several other good buildings to climb up if the lighthouse has been covered in lube. To be an effective sniper, you don't have to get to the highest point in the area (though it does help). You just have to find a spot where you can easily see the areas where your enemy is likely to be. Considering how open this map is, Deathstroke will be able to see Trapster from pretty much anywhere when he swings over the lube up the lighthouse.
Still, getting a reasonable amount of lube on the lighthouse would require getting within about 50 yards of it and staying in that range for a couple of seconds. If Pete plans to do this while still swinging around, he will have absolutely no cover or protection, and he will be swinging around right in Deathstroke's line of sight. Not a great idea.
Even if Deathstroke were to decide to make his way down the island (unlikely, since he knows he has a major ranged advantage), he wouldn't take those routes anyway. I don't think lubricant is invisible. He would know which areas are clear. From there, I can't see him being out-manuevered by Pete. Due to his powers, Deathstroke is one of the best on-the-fly tactical minds around. Pete has battle experience, but he's not what anyone would call a brilliant tactical mind. Even if he tries to ambush Deathstroke, his actions will be very predictable. And still, this is all assuming that Deathstroke decides to make his way down the island at all, which I don't think he will.
Deathstroke, who can think nine times more quickly than the average human, is incapable of out-manuvering a single guy with average intelligence? And it's not necessarily about who out-manuvers whom. If Trapster comes into Deathstroke's field of vision for more than a second or two and is within 150-200 meters away, he will very likely die.
If Pete goes offensive, he will be putting himself out in the open for pretty much the whole fight, giving Deathstroke ample opportunity to gun him down. If Pete goes on the defensive, what do you think he would do?
Another point I think we should address is the limitations of Trapster's ammo. Do you really think he carries enough lubricant as standard gear to be able to spray down all of the likely traveling routes to his position? That's going to have to be a s**t ton of lubricant.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 13, 2011 17:56:52 GMT -5
I'll grant you peak human but no more than that. Musclebound people like Slade are not fast runners.
Spidey is capable of 120 mph, I shaved 20 mph off due to the circumstances. Precisely since there are no tall structures here, he would be swinging around rather than straight. The Spider-man games only allow for straight web slinging in most cases. Gravity is not the only way to build momentum, centripetal force is just as effective.
What reason does Slade have to think that Trapster can do something like websling. Most people don't even realize he can both in the real world and the Marvel universe. Millions of people in Marvel New York completely miss seeing Spider-man. You likely didn't realize he could until I revealed the information. So why would Slade, a man from a world without Spider-man, even think that Pete can web sling, an act that would be completely foreign to him. Why would he look up? Why would he have his gun trained on the skies? He knows that Pete can't fly and he knows that Pete does not have any enhanced speed or teleportation devices or powers. He has no reason to even assume that Pete could traverse the island so quickly much less expect him to swing through the air.
The tallest point on the island is the lighthouse on Slade's side. To allow anyone but Pete to control that point would be a tremendous mistake, especially given Slade's ranged abilities. The lighthouse is an incredibly, tactically advantageous route to Pete, he knows this and will isolate it.
The lubricant need only cover minimal amounts of the tower, enough to make it unreliable to Slade.
I said routes to him, he is not defending any set base so the routes to him will change. He has control over the air so he may start by isolating every high point and moving down ward. By removing the possible sniper positions, Slade will lose his ranged advantage forcing him to move in closer.
Average intelligence? Seriously? Pete created a solvent for Adhesive X, something even Stark and Reed could not do. Pete also created a dust that cancels out Reed's unstable molecules. The self replicating glue he has here is seemingly constructed of nanotechnology. He has also used a wide variety of highly specialized traps requiring him to be a skilled inventor. He has at least genius level intellect on par with Spider-man. Pete has managed to outwit Spidey's spider sense which is something that Slade would have difficulty doing. Pete may prefer prep but he has been capable of fighting on the fly against foes more powerful than Slade simply by using area denial attacks.
If Pete goes defensive, he could cover himself in his glue and become essentially bullet proof and blaster proof forcing Slade to close the distance. At close range, Pete will use area denial attacks to trap Slade. His speed and strength mean nothing to Pete's glue.
His glue and lubricant are likely stored like Spider-man does his web fluid. Highly concentrated and pressurized, designed to expand upon contact with air. Spidey's web fluid is stored in tiny vials and can produce a significantly large amount of webbing per cartridge. Pete's glue and lubricant are stored on his back in a significantly larger container. I would assume at least 40-100 times more capacity than a standard web cartridge. There is reason why I was suggesting he could deal with a reasonably sized section of the island.
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 13, 2011 19:58:37 GMT -5
It's possible for Pete to reach those speeds, but due to the size of the buildings his timing and aim would have to be absolutely flawless. If he lets go of a rope a fraction of a second too early or makes a rope just a tiny bit too long, he'll end up crashing into the ground. If he lets go of a rope a fraction of a second too late or makes a rope just a tiny bit too short, he'll end up slinging himslef much higher than he wants to go. It's possible. It's just not realistic. And you expect him to maintain that speed (or something close to it) while also concentrating on spraying all good sniper areas with lubricant?
Deathstroke has been around the block. He's aware that there may be things that Trapster can do that aren't blatantly obvious. No, he's not going to keep his gun trained on the skies. But he is going to be wary and keep his eyes open, as anyone with half a brain would do while fighting an opponent they're not familiar with. Even while swinging around, Trapster isn't really going to be "in the skies". Deathstroke doesn't have to look up to spot a guy 2 stories off the ground.
The lighthouse is a tactically advantageous position for Deathstroke, but swinging around the lighthouse to spray lube on it with Deathstroke right there below him is a tactically stupid idea.
Covering every high point on the island and then moving downward? Even with his travel speed, that could take a rather long time. Deathstroke might as well be bird hunting.
Brilliance in chemistry has absolutely nothing to do with combat savvy. This shouldn't even be an issue.
Because 1)They're not on the lookout for him, and 2) He's usually 30+ stories above their heads. Neither of those details apply here. Deathstroke is on alert and ready for battle, and Pete will never be more than 2 or 3 stories above him.
How did this turn into ABC logic involving Slade vs Spider-Man (a fight which has never even happened)??
As that would turn out to be just a stalemate, let's assume Pete chooses not to do that.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
Posts: 2,206
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Post by Beatboks on Jan 14, 2011 7:39:26 GMT -5
Nice arguments so far guy's. Not that I expected any less from you two considering some of the Tournaments we've competed in on CV.
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Matezoide
Team Buster Ledger
Elephants!
Posts: 2,240
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Post by Matezoide on Jan 14, 2011 14:12:08 GMT -5
Nice arguments so far guy's. Not that I expected any less from you two considering some of the Tournaments we've competed in on CV. i am surprised,considering this fight is Paste Pot Pete vs Death-freaking-Stroke
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Decoy Elite
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
I've seen things you wouldn't believe
Posts: 4,854
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Post by Decoy Elite on Jan 14, 2011 14:18:44 GMT -5
Nice arguments so far guy's. Not that I expected any less from you two considering some of the Tournaments we've competed in on CV. i am surprised,considering this fight is Paste Pot Pete vs Death-freaking-Stroke And people say that it's impossible to reboot Stilt-Man into a legitimate threat.
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Matezoide
Team Buster Ledger
Elephants!
Posts: 2,240
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Post by Matezoide on Jan 14, 2011 14:20:08 GMT -5
i am surprised,considering this fight is Paste Pot Pete vs Death-freaking-Stroke And people say that it's impossible to reboot Stilt-Man into a legitimate threat. well,i recall him having the upper-hand against Daredevil in Marvel Team Up
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 14, 2011 14:33:11 GMT -5
He has mimicked Spidey's web slinging before which is in itself an impressive feat given he has no spider sense to guide his aim nor does he have Spidey's superhuman reflexes. This means that his aim and in-combat calculation must already be far above normal. Also, he has spent years training with his equipment, if anyone can be considered an expert with it, he can. He won't make a mistake. He is only eliminating the farthest best sniper position from the get go not every position. After taking down the lighthouse, he will then choose the next closest location to Slade. He is fast and mobile enough to keep Slade from gaining any height.
He'll be about 2-3 stories above Slade but only a story or so above the building below him that will completely obscure him from Slade's view. He doesn't need to be on the lighthouse, just near it. He could be on top of the building that is right next to it and fire up causing the lubricant to coat the top section of the tower, which is his objective here. Slade will be able to see the lighthouse get coated. Again, he won't expect that type of mobility from Pete and will not be actively searching above him for someone who he has decided he has significant range advantage and will be able to just shoot him, something that Hand ninjas and the Shocker found difficult.
You said that Pete had average intelligence, I was simply contesting that suggestion. You didn't say combat savvy, you said intelligence. I didn't mean to suggest that because Pete can beat Spidey and Spidey can beat Slade that Pete can thus beat Slade. I suppose that needed more elaboration. Spidey has taken on people with vastly superior powers to his own by means of his intellect and spider sense. Pete has no spider sense so he has to rely purely upon his intelligence to take on foes superior to himself. Also, Green Arrow has average intelligence and he still managed to take down Slade.
His covering himself in glue does not lead to a stalemate, it simply removes the majority of your ranged advantage though at the cost of Pete's mobility advantage. Remember, his glue is heat proof up to Human Torch and can negate super strength up to the Thing. With Pete wearing his blast and bullet resistant glue suit, Slade will have to close the distance. At close range, Slade loses in a battle with Pete.
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 14, 2011 17:56:08 GMT -5
i am surprised,considering this fight is Paste Pot Pete vs Death-freaking-Stroke And people say that it's impossible to reboot Stilt-Man into a legitimate threat. Paste Pot Pete is one thing. Stilt-Man is a different matter entirely.
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 14, 2011 17:56:36 GMT -5
I'll have a new post later today, Dedman. I'm just kinda beat right now.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 14, 2011 19:27:40 GMT -5
Don't sweat it, LeXus.
Spanky. LeXus: The Trapster hates that name and will stuff you so full of paste that your blood vessel will turn white!
I rather liked Stilt-Woman, she would be a better replacement. What they need to do is give him telescopic arms as well and maybe coat him in adamantium. That would make him a threat to even the Hulk.
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