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Post by Dane on May 4, 2013 23:56:48 GMT -5
I guess we just watched different movies. If you don't see the similarities there then you're not going to. I never said anyone was identical. I said they were drawn from the stories told in comics and robbed those stories of some of their key value. That's all.
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Post by Erik-El on May 5, 2013 0:55:03 GMT -5
I probably would see the similarities if there were any. But you have, I assume, gone over all the alleged links you think you found? Well I am fairly certain I have addressed those links as not valid and backed up my opinion with what I assume are justifiable reasons. It's not like I'm just saying, "No it's not because it's not.". I gave actual explanations for why I don't agree with you.
You say that they drew loosely on Extremis, great. That is what everyone knows already. But the rest of it; Mallen, Pepper, Eric, Aldrich, Mandarin, Ezekiel Stane, 5 Nightmares, Civil War, Dark Reign... I don't agree with and I don't think you have justified your position on why you think otherwise. That's all.
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Post by Dane on May 5, 2013 2:53:48 GMT -5
Honestly, I just think I should be able to say things like "It didn't do the comics it drew from justice" without it being this adversarial 'back up your feels' stuff. You seem to be under the impression you can change my interpretation of a story by presenting your interpretation. That's a weird concept to me. I'll try to help clarify my viewpoint, but I really do not mind if you don't share it. We can both watch a movie and enjoy it to different degrees and still be friends, that's ok.
But anyway, let's do the list:
Mallen - as the first Extremis enhancile is drawn on to create *drum roll* Extremis enhanciles in the film. Like I said, I thought he was used as inspiration for the way Eric was recreated. He certainly didn't have much in common with that same character from the comic so they must have gotten inspiration from somewhere. I personally think he was very similar to Mallen, not necessarily in personality but in what impact he had on the plot. Honestly he is probably a mismash of characters plus some new material (i.e. backstory). But just what he brought to the table and fought Tony in almost exactly the same way. It reminded me very strongly of Mallen. If you really want me to scan the fights in Extremis, that's fine. What happens in a number of the panels is duplicated at one point or another in the movie.
Pepper - As I said I thought her using the suit should have been a bigger deal, they could have done more with it. In the comics it had actual meaning and she got her own suit. It seemed like Tony cared enough about her well-being to give her a suit she could use any time she wanted. In the movie it happened like once or twice and he went 'oh yeah that saved her life... oh well' and didn't do much more about it. It just seemed like Tony didn't bother because if Pepper had her own suit the entire plot of her being a damsel in distress would have been chucked out the window. That's Tony, a supergenius, being stupider for the sake of the plot. I don't care for it.
Aldrich - Had one page in the comics where he bitched out and ate a bullet. I think they made him a better character in the movies but at the expense of two of Tony's best villains: Mandarin and Zeke Stane. He got enhancile powers just like Zeke Stane and used them in almost exactly the same way. Zeke Stane forced people to blow themselves up. In the movies Stark's office gets blown up by an enhancile. If that isn't a parallel between the characters I don't have anything more convincing for you. They do the same things. In the comics Zeke has a vendetta against Tony and wants to kill him for personal reasons, but more than that he says "I'm a businessman" and wants his tech to supercede Tony's so he can grind his company into dust. Aldrich has a vendetta and wants Pepper for himself. It's just switching business for pleasure and they're otherwise the same guy for the most part. I felt like they gave him The Mandarin (comics) manipulative side too. Where he was orchestrating things from behind the scenes to his own ends while presenting a different persona to people like Maya Hansen. In Haunted The Mandarin is pretty much a legitimate business man operating under a false alias and he used the Extremis virus to transform handicapped and disabled people into living weapons. That's precisely what Aldrich does in the film. It's also the comic where Tony has to travel the countryside on foot and use an outdating suit to fight enhanciles in. That also happens in the film. Whatever way you cut it, they murdered Tony's quintessential villain, The Mandarin, for very little gain.
Dark Reign/Civil War - These do come up minorly but most of the story is irrelevant. Civil War is where Happy is hospitalized while working for Tony and later dies. Tragedy of death vs not tragedy of death is all I'm saying. Like it meant more in the comics. Dark Reign is where Pepper gets the suit. Again, just saying her using the suit meant more in the comics. For the most part, what I'm saying is it screwed over 3 of my favorite stories. Extremis, Haunted and Five Nightmares. The correlation for Extremis is obvious, Haunted is basically Extremis continued and has a lot of parallels with the film which I mentioned above and Five Nightmares is where Zeke Stane (a geek with a vendetta against Tony Stark) uses enhancile tech to create suicide bombers and blows up Stark Tower. He also blows what we're led to believe to be Tony (in the suit)'s head off, only for dozens of suits to appear around him, all controlled by Tony. Again, in all 3 stories there are numerous panels that have been remade almost verbatim in the movie. Just in my opinion, each story on it's own had more feel to it in the comics. I feel like the just mashed them all together for the movie and lost the best parts of them. You don't have to agree, we don't have to have a pissing contest about it.
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Post by Erik-El on May 5, 2013 22:50:41 GMT -5
I think I should be able to request elaboration and debate ideas I disagree with without you falling back on some kind of notion that you are above challenge. You posted an opinion. I challenge that opinion. Is that not the very reason for this website's creation in the first place? How can that possibly be a weird concept for you? This is a website where ideas are challenged, debated, and changed all the time. You are right; we can watch the same movies and enjoy them to different degrees and still be friends. I would like to add an addendum to that though. You see, I feel like we should be able to debate differences of opinion without jeopardizing friendship as well.
Mallen - Saying they are similar in their impact on the plot means just about nothing to me. I could say Pepper was based on Mallen for that same reason. They have dissimilar personalities and abilities, they had different back histories, they had different roles in their respective plots, and their fights with Tony were shown differently. The only things I can see in common between them is that they both fought Tony twice, they both had a version of Extremis, and they were both evil guys. I have the comic, no need to post the pages unless you want to. If you want to say one punch looked similar to another, I can drum up a list of fights Tony had with other characters that had nothing to do with the movie but because he used his suit in a certain way, I could make the case that the movie-makers blatantly ripped said story off. Maybe your argument makes perfect sense to you but to me, it just doesn't follow.
Pepper - That's the problem. She got her own suit in the comic and only after surviving having a skyscraper dropped on her. Let's not forget that this realization for Tony only happened about 60 years after his creation. Pepper didn't even have her own suit for most of Iron Man's modern comics. None of this happened in the movie. His house was being fired upon and as he had just established, he was going to protect the only thing he can't live without. Besides, all things considered, it doesn't seem like movie Pepper is at all interested in having her own armor. In any case, there doesn't seem to be any connection between the movie and the comics where Pepper is concerned.
Aldrich - Exactly! Obviously he is not based on his comic counterpart because of this very reason alone. Then there is the fact that he was not at all responsible for the creation of Extremis in the movie. He organized the funding for Maya. Aldrich and Zeke have powers that are nothing alike. Aldrich has Extremis, Zeke has modified, pilfered Stark-tech. The only power they have in common is super strength and that is just silly to say they use super strength in the same way. Super strength is kind of limited in its applications. Zeke couldn't breathe fire... hell heat was specifically what he was vulnerable to and complained of it often. That was why he made a suit. It doesn't give him super defense, it protects him from his own weapons. Aldrich on the other hand uses the heat generated by his body weaken Tony's armor. Zeke never did this and aside from the strength, that was Aldrich's only real effective weapon on Stark.
Okay, where were the human bombs in Tony's sky scrapper or even his house in the movie? Stane also rigged people with Stark-tech. Aldrich's human bombs were accidental half the time, including the one that blew up Happy in the movie. In fact, I don't remember the details very well but I am fairly certain Happy followed them to the mall, where he was blown up after they left the Stark office.
Aldrich is nothing like Zeke in personality either. Maya had no illusions of what kind of man Aldrich was. There was no different persona displayed to her. She manipulated Tony and Pepper with the intention of getting Tony to perfect her work. Aldrich had no such plans. Hogan was injured by accident, which is what brought Tony into Aldrich's little game. Aldrich only had eyes for Iron Patriot and Pepper, which he was going to get without Tony entirely. Tony injecting himself into the plot was merely a bonus for Aldrich. Not going to argue the parallels between Aldrich and Mandarin because I think that is who he is actually loosely based on, since he is the actual Mandarin anyway in the movie. Tony wasn't fighting in an outdated suit in the movie. He was fighting in a cutting edge prototype. The prototype was just a little buggy.
She never got the suit at all the the movie so I have no idea why you say it meant more in the comic. It never happened in the movie yet. Wearing Tony's armor for all of 10 seconds is hardly cause for comparison to her getting her own armor and getting her own super hero career in the comics. It's no different than any other time Tony saves Pepper. It's about Tony's win, not Pepper's.
See, this is what I'm talking about. You are injecting your opinion into the story, tailoring facts to suit theories. Someone punches Tony's helmet in and suddenly it's a cheap ripoff of a comic book story? Does that mean Wolverine cutting someone is a blatant ripoff of every story he has ever had? In the comic, Tony wasn't even in the fight with Zeke until the end. Not only that but the Iron Army, which has been used in more than just 5 Nightmares by the way, was not used in the same fashion against Aldrich. They were all suits for Tony in the fight against Aldrich. Jarvis was taking care of the fodder, which also never happened in the comics. It was all Tony in the comics due to his expanded abilities with the Extremis being part of him... which also never happened in the movie.
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Post by Dane on May 5, 2013 23:15:39 GMT -5
Ok, I think you're not getting what I mean.
I'm not saying 'the exact thing that happened in the comics also happened in the movie'. Something doesn't have to be identical to be comparable. What I'm saying is those characters and events in the movies were inspired by characters and events in the books and I felt like the books did things better. I'm not trying to say they're the same.
When I say stuff like 'Tony walks around the country and has to use an out-dated suit' and say 'It's similar to what happens in the film where Tony walks around the country and has to use a battle-damaged suit'. I'm not trying to convince you of them being the same thing. Why do you think I have to prove exactitude of circumstances. I never said they were identical, I said they were drawn from comics that I felt were better.
i.e. Mallen in the comics was better than Eric in the movies (imo) and they are comparable as Extremis enhanciles. I thought Mallen was a better villain.
i.e. Aldrich Killian, while well done in the movie and despite being a good character in his own right, didn't have the impact that The Mandarin and Zeke Stane combined have had on Tony's life.
i.e. Pepper using Tony's suit in the movie didn't have the impact that her being Rescue in the comics did.
The only exact duplications I said were on the table were some of the fight scenes. Twist it any way you like, Tony's last fight with Mallen and Tony's last fight with Eric are almost blow for blow identical. That's why (among other things) one reminds me of another. And it's not an opinion that I have to defend when something reminds me of something else, it's a mental association based on similarities that nothing you can say or do will alter.
You're making this into a fucking crab battle situation, it doesn't have to be. I just said the movie was drawn from 3 comics and I liked the comics better/the comics fistfucked less established characters. You can't argue your way into me liking something. That's what is weird to me. Like at the end of this discussion I'll just go "oh yeah, you're right, it's my favorite film now, I was way off." That's what is weird.
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Post by Erik-El on May 6, 2013 16:59:07 GMT -5
Ok, I think you're not getting what I mean. I'm not saying 'the exact thing that happened in the comics also happened in the movie'. Something doesn't have to be identical to be comparable. What I'm saying is those characters and events in the movies were inspired by characters and events in the books and I felt like the books did things better. I'm not trying to say they're the same. Okay great but I don't see how they are similar without reaching a great deal either. You're not just comparing personal taste, you are trying to compare a series of events in a movie to a series of events in the comics. And you are doing so without much evidence of a correlation. When I say stuff like 'Tony walks around the country and has to use an out-dated suit' and say 'It's similar to what happens in the film where Tony walks around the country and has to use a battle-damaged suit'. I'm not trying to convince you of them being the same thing. Why do you think I have to prove exactitude of circumstances. I never said they were identical, I said they were drawn from comics that I felt were better. But you have no proof that one was drawn from the other and you are stating these things as fact. i.e. Mallen in the comics was better than Eric in the movies (imo) and they are comparable as Extremis enhanciles. I thought Mallen was a better villain. Fine. That's cool. Doesn't mean one was the inspiration of the other. i.e. Aldrich Killian, while well done in the movie and despite being a good character in his own right, didn't have the impact that The Mandarin and Zeke Stane combined have had on Tony's life. Okay. Not sure how you would expect any different in a 2 hour movie. i.e. Pepper using Tony's suit in the movie didn't have the impact that her being Rescue in the comics did. Probably because it wasn't meant to. The only exact duplications I said were on the table were some of the fight scenes. Twist it any way you like, Tony's last fight with Mallen and Tony's last fight with Eric are almost blow for blow identical. That's why (among other things) one reminds me of another. I haven't done any twisting. I also challenge the claim that the fights were almost blow for blow identical. I'm reading it right now. Eric never had bombs dropped on him. He was never shot in the back. Tony never threw a car at Eric and then blew it up. Eric never pinned Tony to the floor and started to throttle Tony. These are just a few sections of the fight that look nothing like the battle on Air Force One in the movie. And it's not an opinion that I have to defend when something reminds me of something else, it's a mental association based on similarities that nothing you can say or do will alter. Unless I can disprove the alleged similarities. You're making this into a fucking crab battle situation, it doesn't have to be. I just said the movie was drawn from 3 comics and I liked the comics better/the comics fistfucked less established characters. You can't argue your way into me liking something. That's what is weird to me. Like at the end of this discussion I'll just go "oh yeah, you're right, it's my favorite film now, I was way off." That's what is weird. I know it doesn't have to be. No debate has to happen. My goal is not to argue you into liking the movie. Your level of like or dislike means nothing to me. But I can most certainly challenge and disprove at least some of your reasons for disliking the movie.
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Post by Dane on May 9, 2013 18:01:32 GMT -5
An Extremis movie with The Mandarin in it. All I've compared it to is the story arc called 'Extremis', a follow-up arc with The Mandarin and Extremis and another story arc with enhanciles that blow themselves up (which happens in the movie). I really do not care if you think it's a stretch. I don't. The main themes are pretty much identical.
Well, they are the same ideas, with the same names, being implemented in the same way. And I'm only saying one inspired the other. Again, I don't feel an overwhelming burden of proof here.
If you think Extremis was drawn from some other story that wasn't called Extremis. That's cool. I probably won't badger you continuously about that. But I do think Extremis was drawn from Extremis at least a bit. I admit they changed it somewhat but again, the change being what I liked less. Which isn't to say I didn't like it.
I don't. Which was actually my point. I thought Zeke Stane and The Mandarin are good villains in their own right. They could have been in later movies but now they can't because they got their balls cut off. They could have made Aldrich Killian an awesome villain without shooting themselves in the foot in that way.
And that's totally cool. It's not a binary switch where I love one and hate the other. All I said was I liked Pepper getting her own suit. It didn't require any special input. You could have just said 'I liked how they handled it in the movie just fine". I also liked the movie. Just thought she got a better run in the comics.
Well yeah, it'd be pretty hard to pick up a car and throw it at someone when you're in an airplane. The locations are very different. The fight sequences in their entirety are also nowhere near identical. It's just very few enhanciles have gone h2h with Tony and then had a repulsor blast through the chest end them. (Yes Mallen still had his head blown off, but he was pretty gone after half his torso went missing). Because of that there are a couple of panels that I felt were reproduced almost directly in the film, location aside. You also have to admit that their powersets and the way they've attacked Tony were pretty similar. Or maybe you don't. I don't actually care if you see it my way or not. You don't have to see the parallels between the characters. If you want to pretend that the IM3 movie was a completely new and original work that had no relation to the comics, that is totally fine.
You are pretty far beyond overestimating yourself. In my opinion, the Iron Man movies are much like the Nolan Batman films. They've drawn on classic stories and changed some stuff around to suit themselves. IM3 draws on Extremis as much as TDKR drew on Knightfall. You can scream until you go blue in the face and I won't stop believing it. This isn't a chemistry test where you hold up some litmus paper and yell yahtzee at me. At a very basic level, even if you don't want to accept anything else, the film was about Extremis enhanciles and all 3 stories I said the film was drawn from had Extremis and/or enhanciles. Nothing you say will change that and I'm really unsure why you're bothering.
Honestly, I feel like you're arguing for the sake of it. The movie drew on elements from Extremis, Haunted and 5 Nightmares. I'm sorry if you don't see it that way but I was never trying to prove it to you. I don't care if you see it the same way or not.
In other news, how did you like Star Trek: Into The Darkness if you've seen it? Maybe we could talk about a film we don't have complex, multi-medium feelings about?
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Post by Dane on May 12, 2013 0:28:34 GMT -5
My dick is confused as hell right now.
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Post by Erik-El on May 23, 2013 15:25:17 GMT -5
My dick is confused as hell right now. Mine isn't! Also, I think I broke Beatboks lol.
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Post by Dane on May 23, 2013 17:51:30 GMT -5
It had to happen eventually.
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Post by Erik-El on May 24, 2013 12:26:57 GMT -5
It had to happen eventually. My only real problem is that he thinks that his little ship is going to take one swing through the path of 4 ships and end up damaged but they end up dead. I'm like, "Huh!?"
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Post by Dane on May 24, 2013 22:08:50 GMT -5
His strategies always seem to involve literal 'against all odds, I beat everyone and walk away with minor flesh wounds' type solutions and when you question it he'll say something like 'I was in the army ok, trust me it'll work.'.
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Post by Erik-El on May 26, 2013 20:54:58 GMT -5
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Post by Dane on May 26, 2013 21:36:53 GMT -5
That is somewhat unfortunate. I'm sorry your marriage plans fell through bro.
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Post by Erik-El on May 27, 2013 0:16:57 GMT -5
Lol. But really, I was a little bummed her photo op sold out before I got there but she was really sweet in person. I didn't converse with her because I was 3rd in line and I didn't want to try holding up the line but I got the impression that she was genuinely a sweet person... or genuinely appreciative of her fans at least (can't say the same about that asshole, Lou Ferrigno).
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Post by Erik-El on May 30, 2013 15:52:54 GMT -5
It's kind of funny but 2.0 is still getting tons of views. I wish we could have stayed motivated.
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Post by Erik-El on May 30, 2013 21:38:09 GMT -5
My roommate does videos for Bleeding Cool and he asked if he can do a guest article for our site. Since he wants to do a text/video article, I told him I would check with Dane first.
Really what I am seeking is any kind of desire to continue with this. Because we would need to set up some kind of video hoster, because I told him any content (text, pics, vids) that he allows us to use are ours, not his. So if that is the case, there would be no point in having him do all that work if we have decided to abandon the Ledger. Where does everyone stand on this?
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Post by Dane on May 31, 2013 2:18:11 GMT -5
Well I just finished my last assignment ever, so no time like the present to shift into 2nd gear.
I believe we already have it set up so you can easily embed youtube videos. I do not have the resources to take out a large web hosting deal where we can store loads of movies at present. But I could look into it.
I'm happy for your friend to do whatever articles he wants tbh.
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Post by Dane on May 31, 2013 2:18:54 GMT -5
That said, if you just want this to be a place where a very select few people discuss comics, that's cool too. I wouldn't blame anyone for having had enough of my lack of work ethic.
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Post by Erik-El on May 31, 2013 11:13:18 GMT -5
Well to be honest, we would be doing him a big favor because we get a lot more views per day than he does and I told him any videos he creates will be ours. Just to make things easier so if something ever happens, like he has a professional meltdown and tries to force us to remove anything, it would be up to us to comply. If we can do a Youtube embedding, we should set up a Youtube account for CL.
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