Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 8, 2012 4:16:25 GMT -5
shown a strong knowledge in almost all sciences
Genetics- he's created powerful meta humans, genetically enhanced his ape body Engineering - Death rays, force fields, time machines, teleporters, dimensional devices etc, etc - he has admitted his knoweldge in robotics is a downfall Medicine - he pioneered Brain transplants as early as 1940 Geology - Studied and was able to activate dormant volcanoes, developed a mole machine
Tactically His plans to set the JSA and Infinity Inc against each other by making the JSA temporarily evil was a brilliant move. The plan being whoever won he would as the winner would be racked by guilt
His plan in JLA 195-197( v1) to trick the villains f E-1 into helping him remove several heroes from existence so that the cosmic balance to restore itself would remove all heroes from e-2 from existence ( he'd convinced the e-1 villains that there was a good chance it would be their heroes)
His plans in Ultra's war on America, playing time displaced heroes etc against each other and blackmailing the US's war effort
His time manipulation (along with others) in Booster Gold
More "ethereal" abstract thinking - out of the box Discovering the capability and origins of the Powerstone and hammer of Thor without any overt historical data to lead him to that conclusion easily
His usurping the power of the 5th dimensional Thunderbolt.
Multiple thwarted attempts to acquire the Helm of Nabu
The concept of Upsetting the cosmic balance to have it work to his ends was also pretty out there.
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creator
Team Buster Ledger
It's time for Powergrids 2.0
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Post by creator on Oct 9, 2012 21:40:53 GMT -5
Yes he is brilliant but compare him to the others in those ranks round him,
Rank 22 Dr Miles Caulder Prof Ivo Lex Luthor
Rank 23 Leader T.O Morrow Vril Dox II
Rank 24 Doctor Doom Mr Fantastic
I can confidently say that he surpasses Caulder and Ivo. I am less confident about Luthor, the Leader and Vril. Even with all the examples you used, I don't think he equals Doom or Mr Fantastic. I would move him to rank 23 but I sill think he falls short of rank 24. Thoughts ?
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 9, 2012 23:16:53 GMT -5
I would say he surpasses Lex, probably morrow as well, not sure about Leader. your right however, i don't think he surpasses Vril. Dox's manipulative genius takes him to a whole new level that his scientific prowess does not. it more than makes up for his shortcomings in scientific knowledge and is the only reason he defeats his otherwise much smarter "father" Brainiac. 23 is probably reasonable. though Thinking about it I wouldn't put Dox or him much behind Reed or Doom. There abstract out of the box thinking makes up for a any differential in their grasp on sciences. Dox and Ultra for example would both be better tacticians than Reed, better at psychologically playing people - using their emotions, drives morals etc against them.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 9, 2012 23:19:15 GMT -5
actually now that I think of it a battle bewteen Ultra and Dox ( two of my favorite genius') would be pretty damn interesting. might have to think of a scenario and put one up
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 9, 2012 23:48:23 GMT -5
Thought I'd bump the latest list up to the top
Compiled List
Rank 1 Rhino
Rank 2 Ares Captain Marvel (Batson) Colossus Cannonball Dazzler Electro Hercules Human Torch (Storm) Iceman Juggernaut Kalibak Longshot Northstar Plastic Man Quicksilver Rogue Sabretooth Scorpion Thing US Agent Warpath
Rank 3 Archangel Balder Gambit Green Arrow Hawkeye Namor Nightcrawler Storm Thor Wonderman
Rank 4 Box (Jefferies) Capt Atom Falcon Green Lantern (Jordan) Iron Fist Luke Cage Marvel Girl Ms Marvel Orion Quasar Wonder Woman
Rank 5 Aquaman Black Canary Havok Huntress Invisible Woman Moon Knight Mystique Polaris She-Hulk Wasp Wolverine
Rank 6 Black Widow Cyclops Karnak Nick Fury Superman
Rank 7 Bishop Black Bolt Capt Mar-vell Flash (Allen) Forge Gladiator (Kallark) Hourman (Rex Tyler) Puma
Rank 8 Cable Cypher Kingpin Mach 5 (Abner Jenkins) Powergirl Sersi
Rank 9 Dr Fate (Kent)
Rank 10 Vulture (Toomes) Zatanna
Rank 11 Capt America (Rogers) Morbius
Rank 12 Black Knight (Whitman) Dr Strange Doctor Octopus Emma Frost Martian Manhunter Vision
Rank 13 Elongated Man Hawkman Highfather Norman Osborn Peter Parker Shadowcat
Rank 14 Aztek Jonas Harrow Tinkerer
Rank 15 Blue Beetle (Kord) Blue Marvel Dark Beast
Rank 16 Egghead Fixer Magneto Martin Stein Nightwing Prof X Robotman (Crane) Wizard
Rank 17 Hank McCoy Modok Moria MacTaggert
Rank 18 Mister Miracle Sage
Rank 19 Batman Black Panther (T'Challa) Dr Light (Kymio) Edward Enigma Oracle (Gordon) Ultron
Rank 20 Bruce Banner Calculator (DC) Mandarin Noh-Varr Shazam Steel (John Henry Irons)
Rank 21 Atom (Ray Palmer) Desaad Dr Sivanna Hank Pym Kree Society / Technology Mr Terrific (Holt) Rip Hunter Tony Stark Will Magnus
Rank 22 Dr Miles Caulder Mad Thinker Prof Ivo Lex Luthor Sentry (Stable) Skrull Society / Technology Shi’ar Society / Technology Ultra Humanite
Rank 23 Captain Marvel (Batson) (Invoked wisdom effect) Capt Mar-vell (Invoked cosmic awareness) Cypher (Language translation) Forge (Invention only) Leader T.O Morrow Tao Vril Dox II
Rank 24 Doctor Doom Mr Fantastic
Rank 25 Dr Fate (Nabu) Lords of Order Time Trapper
Rank 26 Darkseid Himon Querl Dox Thanos
Rank 27 Controllers High Evolutionary Metron Watchers
Rank 28 Guardians Stranger
Rank 29 Phantom Stranger
Rank 30 Death Eon Galactus Living Tribunal
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 10, 2012 0:03:55 GMT -5
Damn, just realized we haven't got Brainiac ranked. I'd put him equal to his son Vril. I know in the pure sciences side of thing he's much smarter (12th level against 10th level genius and all) but as I said Dox has a knowledge and creative ability in areas like politics, psychology, media (Mass0, infuelnce, and tactics etc that his father is definitely not his equal in. The perfect example is the way he defeated Brainiac in LEGION. They fought and Snr won, something Dox always knew he would. He also knew that once his father accessed his mind courtesy of the Coluan data core he would see Dox hiding something from him and his ego would mean he would HAVE TO KNOW what it was. Once he broke through the defenses Dox had put up he was locked in the mental trap of pure emotion Dox set for him. Emotion he couldn't handle which unhinged him. Brainiac Snr wouldn't think of something like that.
If he employed the types of tactics that his son did he would not have lost in panic in the sky. I point to the example where Dox's entire fleet was ambushed and caught in a fire trap. For almost any military that would have been the end. Dox quickly ordering to dump all excess fuel got to hyper drive/full speed (straight into the enemy like) than firing on their ejected fuel meant that the enemy was destroyed in seconds from their own trap while Dox's fleet rode the explosion through them.
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Post by CitizenBane on Oct 10, 2012 7:01:30 GMT -5
Perhaps Martian Manhunter deserves to be bumped up a notch or two since DC has made him a quantum physics maestro in the New 52.
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Post by CitizenBane on Oct 10, 2012 7:02:59 GMT -5
And if we're adding new characters, I'd say Destiny of the Endless should be a Rank 30 alongside LT, Eon and co.
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Post by jakefury on Oct 10, 2012 8:27:30 GMT -5
I think Wonder Man should be ranked higher. Wasn't he an inventor of some sort before he got his powers from Zemo?
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 10, 2012 8:32:17 GMT -5
In early avengers tales and in west coast Avengers I can't recal any feats of Simon's that showed any great mental acuity. Quite frankly Hawkeye always seemed a little smarter , both as goliath in his early Avengers appearances and leader in WCA.
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Post by jakefury on Oct 10, 2012 8:36:58 GMT -5
Oh ok, I knew he had his own company but couldn't remember if he actually did anything noteworthy on panel.
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Post by Strafe Prower on Oct 10, 2012 19:16:15 GMT -5
Ive got a few challenges, but ill wait till im at a computer to break down my thoughts.
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Post by Power NeXus on Oct 10, 2012 21:48:15 GMT -5
As a bit of a Colossus fan, I can't help but take issue with seeing him ranked the same as notable dimwits like Electro, Juggernaut, and Hercules.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 10, 2012 22:14:26 GMT -5
a 2 is supposed to be average. as in everyday normal people. if you think Colossus is above that challenge it and put up some feats.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 11, 2012 1:29:09 GMT -5
I am only looking at the characters I had reservations about.
Rank 3 Archangel Gambit Green Arrow Hawkeye Namor Nightcrawler Storm Thor Wonderman Just out of curiosity, what exactly have any of these characters done to prove they are better than average or among the best intellect in a city? Thor and Namor especially. Storm and Archangel I can maybe see cases made for, maybe the New 52 Green Arrow as well. But Thor?
Rank 4 Green Lantern (Jordan) Iron Fist Luke Cage Marvel Girl Ms Marvel Wonder Woman I have a hard time swallowing that Hal Jordan is anything more than a regular guy that just happens to be an exceptional pilot. I am not a huge GL reader but I am fairly certain his JL appearances would damn near put him along side Rhino. I never knew Luke Cage was ever noted as particularly intelligent either.
Rank 5 Aquaman Black Canary Havok Huntress Invisible Woman Moon Knight Mystique Polaris She-Hulk Wasp Wolverine As a fanboy of both Wolverine and Wonder Woman, I would probably eat my hat before ever comfortably saying that he is smarter than Wonder Woman. I can safely say that he is more schooled in how to kill someone than she is sure, but Wolverine's smarty pants feats are not really better than hers and he does not have a gods gifted intelligence and divine wisdom. This is where it gets kind of sketchy because Wonder Woman does not really have many feats, we are just to assume her brain power. I don't really have a problem believing Aquaman's placement so much as I am curious what would put him there since I am ignorant to the character. I am pretty sure Havok is nothing special as well.
Rank 6 Black Widow Cyclops Karnak Nick Fury Superman Pretty sure Superman is a genius. Like a scary genius. I will explain later.
Rank 7 Bishop Forge Forge I get. Bishop I need an explanation for.
Rank 8 Cable Cypher Kingpin Kingpin is a little out of my realm but is he really smarter than Forge?
Rank 13 Peter Parker Shadowcat Shadowcat is a genius, but I always understood her to be a genius that is a little more grounded in our realistic level of intellect. Nowhere on Parker's level.
Rank 15 Dark Beast Dark Beast is equivalent to Beast, both of whom are better than Prof X and Magneto.
Rank 16 Magneto Nightwing Prof X I am having a hard time believing Nightwing is a superhuman genius on anything. He has an exceptional spacial awareness but so does Cyclops and he is nowhere near Rank 16 on your list.
Rank 19 Batman Black Panther (T'Challa) Dr Light (Kymio) Edward Enigma Oracle (Gordon) Enigma is among the best in the galaxy? No, I can't believe that. In all honesty, I have a hard time believing Batman is on that level either and while we are on the subject of Batman, I am fairly certain Superman has shown to have a higher capacity for understanding than Batman. At the very least, I know that Superman has improved on Batman's inventions at least once and Superman's own wonky inventions are far more impressive than Batman's best IMO.
Rank 20 Steel (John Henry Irons) I am not knowledgable on Irons but you think Batman is incapable of replicating anything Irons can do only better?
Rank 21 Hank Pym Tony Stark Hank Pym = Erik disagree! He probably does belong up around here but I feel much more comfortable putting Stark on Reed's level. He has shown to eclipse Reed in a few fields.
Rank 25 Time Trapper Okay I am not sure about this, I might be remembering it wrong but wasn't TT revealed to be Superboy Prime?
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 11, 2012 2:03:43 GMT -5
I am only looking at the characters I had reservations about. Rank 3 Green Arrow Thor Wonderman Just out of curiosity, what exactly have any of these characters done to prove they are better than average or among the best intellect in a city? Thor and Namor especially. Storm and Archangel I can maybe see cases made for, maybe the New 52 Green Arrow as well. But Thor?Rank 4 Green Lantern (Jordan) Iron Fist Luke Cage Marvel Girl Ms Marvel Wonder Woman I have a hard time swallowing that Hal Jordan is anything more than a regular guy that just happens to be an exceptional pilot. I am not a huge GL reader but I am fairly certain his JL appearances would damn near put him along side Rhino. I never knew Luke Cage was ever noted as particularly intelligent either. Rank 5 Aquaman Wolverine As a fanboy of both Wolverine and Wonder Woman, I would probably eat my hat before ever comfortably saying that he is smarter than Wonder Woman. I can safely say that he is more schooled in how to kill someone than she is sure, but Wolverine's smarty pants feats are not really better than hers and he does not have a gods gifted intelligence and divine wisdom. This is where it gets kind of sketchy because Wonder Woman does not really have many feats, we are just to assume her brain power. I don't really have a problem believing Aquaman's placement so much as I am curious what would put him there since I am ignorant to the character. I am pretty sure Havok is nothing special as well.Rank 8 Kingpin Kingpin is a little out of my realm but is he really smarter than Forge?Rank 16 Magneto Nightwing Prof X I am having a hard time believing Nightwing is a superhuman genius on anything. He has an exceptional spacial awareness but so does Cyclops and he is nowhere near Rank 16 on your list. Rank 19 Batman Edward Enigma Oracle (Gordon) Enigma is among the best in the galaxy? No, I can't believe that. In all honesty, I have a hard time believing Batman is on that level either and while we are on the subject of Batman, I am fairly certain Superman has shown to have a higher capacity for understanding than Batman. At the very least, I know that Superman has improved on Batman's inventions at least once and Superman's own wonky inventions are far more impressive than Batman's best IMO. Rank 20 Steel (John Henry Irons) I am not knowledgable on Irons but you think Batman is incapable of replicating anything Irons can do only better?
Rank 21 Hank Pym Tony Stark Hank Pym = Erik disagree! He probably does belong up around here but I feel much more comfortable putting Stark on Reed's level. He has shown to eclipse Reed in a few fields.Rank 25 Time Trapper Okay I am not sure about this, I might be remembering it wrong but wasn't TT revealed to be Superboy Prime?
From Memory the ranking for Thor was more to do with his alter ego Drake being a brilliant Doctor in Classic Avengers and Thor tales. I'd have to go back through the pages to check. Once again I can see that Erik and I are going to be on the Wonder Woman Band wagon however (just like in the h2h combat thread, speed reaction etc etc). Dianna is way above that. As I recall there was some work she did on Paula's purple ray, another appearance where she was working on cures for prolific diseases, I can think of several others where she was shown to be far above average intellect. Aquaman was one of those characters who is where he is because of a broad spread intellect rather than just sciences. He is well informed on Atlantian tech which is advanced and has used science to defeat superior powered beings. However his tactical capability as a ruler of a military and his political savyness as a head of state is what gives him the slightly higher rank Green Arrow was also due to political and business accumin as well as the usual Fisk is much the same. A brilliant business man and with fiance, media manipulation, tactics and the use of psychology. It's teh same reason that Vril dox is where he at a rank quite above where his scientific brilliance alone would place him. Batman is also due more to the broad spread of his knowledge. HIs deductive reasoning and tactical ability makes up for some lacks in scientific capability. Add to that his business head (as much as he tries to hide it) John Henry (Steel) in JLA has been shown to be up there with Ray Palmer and Lex Luthor. It was only the combined genius of the three of them that got them through one major catastrophe. In his solo series also he's made a LOT more than just armor. His weapons verge on dimensional in nature. Pym I think is in the right place but I don't think the same broad look has been taken at Stark as some of the others you mentioned. If it was his business accumin, tactical ability and his tech should surely have him at least one or two higher than Pym That is only one possible (and IMO highly unlikely) origin of Time trapper. We are talking about someone with just about complete knowledge of time and the knowledge to create his own dimension, alternate reality. I wouldn't be low balling him. Brainiac 5 had to give everything he had just to make plans to stalemate him.
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Post by CitizenBane on Oct 11, 2012 7:37:34 GMT -5
Unless we're counting Donald Blake's medical expertise as part of Thor's intellect, I don't really see what he's done to merit a three ---- his combat and tactical knowledge as reflected in successive fights against the Destroyer and Mangog paint him as being dumb as rocks, and that's without even bringing up the recent incident where he tried to put out a fire by punching it.
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Beatboks
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by Beatboks on Oct 11, 2012 8:21:00 GMT -5
I could have sworn either Ckal or Hellos made a post about Drakes feats and showed Drake to be the persona of Thor. I can't however find it ATM.
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Post by Strafe Prower on Oct 11, 2012 9:59:40 GMT -5
Rank 2 Iceman Thing Rank 3 Hawkeye Rank 4 Falcon Rank 5 Huntress I don't agree with the following. Why are Iceman and Thing, who has a scientific background IIRC, in the same category as Electro and Scorpion? I would say either move Electro and Scorpion down, or these two up. I think Hawkeye should be further up as well. He has pretty good deductive skills and is very tactically gifted. He been able to escape a fortress of armed assassins. He had to go get his bow and arrows, then escape successfully. Add that to his showings against the Batroc Brigade and the Thunderbolts, and I think he should get a 4 or 5. What has Falcon done to suggest he should get a 4? I've never seen anything to suggest he is that intelligent. I've never seen anything to suggest his more intelligent than your average man, in fact. Huntress being on this level is astounding to me. I've only seen her as a brash fighter without planning. She doesn't have any scientific knowledge and her detective skills are mediocre at best IMO. Also, props for putting Edward Nigma where he deserves to be.
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Post by Erik-El on Oct 11, 2012 19:27:32 GMT -5
I could have sworn either Ckal or Hellos made a post about Drakes feats and showed Drake to be the persona of Thor. I can't however find it ATM. In the newer issues, I thought the two personalities were independent of one another. They could hold conversations with each other but Thor is not capable of performing surgery.
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