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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jun 2, 2011 0:53:33 GMT -5
How do you improve something you don't understand?
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 2, 2011 0:55:01 GMT -5
How do you improve something you don't understand? That is the magic of his power. He does not need to know that. His power just naturally lets him skip that requirement. He just thinks something like, "I need this armor to be stronger" then shoop-da-whoop his power constructs the blueprints in his head.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Jun 2, 2011 1:21:12 GMT -5
His power requires that he know what he wants it to do. He can't be like "I want to make a weapon that is better than the previous weapon I built" because he doesn't know how he built the previous weapon according to your assertion. He can have normal conversations while building which means that he is lucid which means that he knows what he did and how he did it, he may not know why he did it but he knows how. He has also been shown to be able to repair devices that he has not built. How does he do this? Forge is a cosmic level genius capable being an expert in any given field.
While we are on the subject of gaining knowledge without any effort, where do we put Prodigy?
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Post by Strafe Prower on Jun 2, 2011 2:24:35 GMT -5
IIRC, Tony is a least Reed's equal in Intellect. He beat him in a chess game using 3 boards while disscussing another topic. Morph could better support this (I'm sure he will), but I may be wrong. Also, Bill Foster should be up in the teen's, but I'm not quite sure where. creator, would Artificial Intelligence be included on the list? Classic Vision was quite intelligent as well.
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creator
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Post by creator on Jun 2, 2011 2:28:14 GMT -5
I'm not confused by the title for the list here, I'm more interested in how people with Cosmic Awareness would actually be placed, because being cosmically aware is by definition having inert knowledge of things in the universe. When Mar-Vell first got it, it was a big deal about how he had that "oneness" with everything, and Silver Surfer uses that same oneness to analyze life on like a subatomic scale or some super-sciencey thing like that. My question is having cosmic awareness something that should automatically place people with it on a certain level, or should it not be looked at as a form of intelligence for this ranking system? As this forms a power and is usually employed to learn something specific, I would say that the character has a second rating when employing this power, much like a martial artists who employs Ch'i to improve his stats.
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Post by creator on Jun 2, 2011 2:29:08 GMT -5
IIRC, Tony is a least Reed's equal in Intellect. He beat him in a chess game using 3 boards while disscussing another topic. Morph could better support this (I'm sure he will), but I may be wrong. Also, Bill Foster should be up in the teen's, but I'm not quite sure where. creator, would Artificial Intelligence be included on the list? Classic Vision was quite intelligent as well. I would include Artifical Intelligence on the list, So Ultron, Worldmind etc.
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Post by Strafe Prower on Jun 2, 2011 2:30:15 GMT -5
IIRC, Tony is a least Reed's equal in Intellect. He beat him in a chess game using 3 boards while disscussing another topic. Morph could better support this (I'm sure he will), but I may be wrong. Also, Bill Foster should be up in the teen's, but I'm not quite sure where. creator, would Artificial Intelligence be included on the list? Classic Vision was quite intelligent as well. I would include Artifical Intelligence on the list, So Ultron, Worldmind etc. I'm not the best when it comes to marvel in general, so someone might have to help with Vision and Bill.
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Jun 2, 2011 5:52:52 GMT -5
Brainiac 5 should be many ranks above Reed.
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Post by Supreme Marvel on Jun 2, 2011 6:06:55 GMT -5
I'm gonna list a few names...
Mr. Terrific Ted Kord Rip Hunter Edward Enigma Tim Drake Barbara Gordon The Calculator Thaddeus Sivana John Henry Doctor Magnus (The one that created, Red Torando and the Metal Men.) Metron
And what about The Marvels and Adams? They both of Widsoms' of their gods, Solomon and Zheuti. When they consider their gods for information, they usually know it.
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Beatboks
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Post by Beatboks on Jun 2, 2011 6:41:01 GMT -5
Well this is obviously going to be the hottest contested grid of them all.
Personally I'd rank Reed at 24. - due to the fact that his intellect has allowed him to understand and work on alien advanced tech almost immediately. Added to which his intellect is such that he has been able to counter "cosmic" level threats. he certainly has all fields of lower science well covered
Lex I would say is a 22. He certainly knows all "earth Science and is well ahead of where it is at, but in things like invasion he has needed to analyze alien tech in detail to be able to take advantage of it. His application of the sciences isn't the "plot device" that it is for Reed and Doom. Doom would Rank 25 for obvious reasons (being able to work out ways to take near omnipotent power from others and all (if not 1 higher)
Querl Dox also 25
Vril Dox II 23 (maybe 24, he's almost the walking plot device Reed is, but sometimes his plans take longer to come to fruition.
Metron would be a 26 (is there anything he doesn't have a grasp on)
Bruce and Tony I'd say are both 21. Yes Tony has beaten Reed at chess and is usually better at engineering, That doesn't make him a match in the umpteen other fields of science in which Reed seems to know everything. While Bruce Isn't Tony's match in engineering he's certainly better at chemistry, forensics, Psychology, criminology and applied logic as a detective would use in deductive reasoning. I've debated this pretty heavily on DC boards, that you can't limit "intelligence" to scientific fields (which has mostly fallen on deaf ears).
Also in the range of 20 to 23 I'd put Will Magnus, Niles Caulder, Prof Ivo, T.O Morrow, T'Challa, Dr Sivanna, Ultra Humanite, Time Trapper, Ray Palmer, Rip Hunter and the High evolutionary.
In the 15 to 19 range Terry Sloane, Robert Crane, Hank McCoy, Martin Stein, and Michael Holt,
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Post by creator on Jun 2, 2011 6:56:51 GMT -5
I just realized that 24, 26, and 28 do not have descriptions for the ranks. They are there to help seperate out some of the higher ranks
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 2, 2011 8:50:54 GMT -5
His power requires that he know what he wants it to do. He can't be like "I want to make a weapon that is better than the previous weapon I built" because he doesn't know how he built the previous weapon according to your assertion. He can have normal conversations while building which means that he is lucid which means that he knows what he did and how he did it, he may not know why he did it but he knows how. He has also been shown to be able to repair devices that he has not built. How does he do this? Forge is a cosmic level genius capable being an expert in any given field. While we are on the subject of gaining knowledge without any effort, where do we put Prodigy? Quit making up shit. If you do not know about the character, please do not try and debate for him. He can have normal conversations while building because he is not devoting any brain power to the build. It is all his powers working. The reason he knows how to repair shit he never encountered before is because of his power. You have already proven that you have no idea what you are talking about due to the line of questions you have provided me. If Forge was wearing a mutant inhibitor collar, he would not know how to repair a goddamned coffee maker.
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Post by creator on Jun 2, 2011 13:21:42 GMT -5
A point to remember is that the Shi'ar and Skrulls are in other galaxies, as well as many other races that have been shown (for Marvel). So benchmarking Reed against these and others should help rank him.
However on the same scale we are also ranking DC characters so now Reed must be measured against other DC races in other galaxies and there are a lot of highly advanced civilisations out there
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Post by creator on Jun 2, 2011 13:26:02 GMT -5
Since we are taking in to account races like the Controllers, the Guardians etc, and to get the ball rolling why don't we (for now) say that Reed is a Rank 21 and see how that pans out with ranking others on the scale - unless anyone has a serious objection ?
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whacknasty
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Post by whacknasty on Jun 2, 2011 14:49:43 GMT -5
Power Grids: Intelligence This is the grid discussion based on Intelligence feats. Factors to take in to account when ranking Intelligence include the characters raw intelligence, intelligence in one area of knowledge vs multiple areas and speed of learning. If a character has an ability that makes them smarter in 1 area (like Forge with Inventing or Cypher with Languages) then please provide a second rating for the character but add a note i.e. Forge 12 / 15 (Inventing). . Use the attachment as a guideline for ranking characters. I'll start the ball rolling Rhino 1 Living Tribunal 30 Has anyone placed Mr. Sinister or Magneto yet? Most of the ratings seem pretty good so far I tihnk..
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 2, 2011 19:10:53 GMT -5
A point to remember is that the Shi'ar and Skrulls are in other galaxies, as well as many other races that have been shown (for Marvel). So benchmarking Reed against these and others should help rank him. However on the same scale we are also ranking DC characters so now Reed must be measured against other DC races in other galaxies and there are a lot of highly advanced civilisations out there We do know that Reed is smarter than all of the Skrulls at the very least. They needed a Skrull to emulate Reed in powers, intellect and personality in order to think up Secret Invasion.
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Post by creator on Jun 3, 2011 6:53:27 GMT -5
A point to remember is that the Shi'ar and Skrulls are in other galaxies, as well as many other races that have been shown (for Marvel). So benchmarking Reed against these and others should help rank him. However on the same scale we are also ranking DC characters so now Reed must be measured against other DC races in other galaxies and there are a lot of highly advanced civilisations out there We do know that Reed is smarter than all of the Skrulls at the very least. They needed a Skrull to emulate Reed in powers, intellect and personality in order to think up Secret Invasion. Good point. I will put some ranking together based on the input so far, and we can debate around that while adding in new characters.
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Post by creator on Jun 4, 2011 7:09:53 GMT -5
IIRC, Tony is a least Reed's equal in Intellect. He beat him in a chess game using 3 boards while disscussing another topic. Morph could better support this (I'm sure he will), but I may be wrong. Also, Bill Foster should be up in the teen's, but I'm not quite sure where. creator, would Artificial Intelligence be included on the list? Classic Vision was quite intelligent as well. Reed did beaten in the chess games with Tony but I think Tony is a better tactican and Tony was also benefitting from Extremis at this time.
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Post by creator on Jun 4, 2011 7:37:56 GMT -5
I have compiled some of the thoughts we have been posting so far for review in the list below.
On a separate note I have been thinking more about non cosmic powerhouse characters who have Cosmic Awareness i.e. Mar-vell but not Eon (who is a cosmic entity). I think they should have 2 ranks – 1 for their normal intellect level and then say a Rank 23 level to simulate their cosmic awareness. The cosmic awareness usually provides indepth knowledge of a being / object etc when used and this could be simulated by a Rank 23. This may also be the case for Capt Marvel (DC) using the Wisdom of Solomon. Thoughts ?
Also with regards to Forge and Cypher, both of whose mutant powers grant them superhuman intellect in 1 area (inventing and languages), they should also have 2 ranks. In the case of Forge his rank for inventing would need to be very high considering the stuff he did in duplicating Rom’s neutraliser but on a massive scale. So maybe rank 20. Cypher is almost unequalled in Language understanding so I thinking of a rank 23. Their base line ranks (for normal intellect) need to be established. Thoughts ?
We need specific ranks for Niles Caulder, Prof Ivo, T.O Morrow, T'Challa, Dr Sivanna, Ultra Humanite, Time Trapper, Ray Palmer, Rip Hunter, Terry Sloane, Robert Crane, Martin Stein, and Michael Holt
Compiled List
Rank 1 Rhino
Rank 2 Hercules Scorpion
Rank 3 Balder Thor
Rank 4
Rank 5
Rank 6
Rank 7 Capt America (Rogers)
Rank 8 Mach 5 (Abner Jenkins)
Rank 9
Rank 10
Rank 11 Peter Parker Rank 12 Doctor Octopus Vision Rank 13
Rank 14
Rank 15
Rank 16 Hank McCoy Magneto Prof X Wizard Rank 17 Modok Rank 18
Rank 19 Ultron
Rank 20 Bruce Banner Mr Terrific Rank 21 Batman Hank Pym Tony Stark Will Magnus Rank 22 Lex Luthor Rank 23 Leader Vril Dox II
Rank 24 Doctor Doom Mr Fantastic Rank 25
Rank 26 Himon Querl Dox Thanos
Rank 27 Controllers High Evolutionary Metron Watchers
Rank 28 Guardians Stranger
Rank 29
Rank 30 Galactus Living Tribunal
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Post by Erik-El on Jun 4, 2011 9:54:11 GMT -5
According to what they say about one another, Xavier is smarter than Beast. But if we go by feats such as Beast doing literally everything in the lab and workshop from the early days until current, Beast has Xavier pretty soundly beaten. He even makes improvements on Xavier's previous designs such as Cerebro to Cerebra, the jets, etc.
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