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Post by Erik-El on Apr 5, 2013 9:39:51 GMT -5
Whether or not the show and movie did a good job actually showing her fighting ability, the intention was to show that she was a top-tier fighter. IIRC her fighting skill is maxed out in the RPG book. She is supposed to do things that are "impossible". She easily killed shock-troppers with her eyes closed in one episode.
The point is, while the actress and fight choreographer might not be very good in the fights, River most certainly is.
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 9:40:49 GMT -5
Well, let's measure her on the ol' fighting skills grid.
"Factors to take in to account include combat ability with a single or multiple opponents, number of and mastery level of combat styles, ability to innovate, skill level with a single or multiple weapons, accuracy with the weapons. In this case, some characters use weapons as well as fighting hand to hand, Captain America and Hawkeye being good examples. So they would ideally need two ratings, one for each. To denote this after a character name entry, simply put (H2H), (Melee) or (Missile)."
ok, so she has taken down multiple opponents of no reputable skill. These feats would put her on the level of Rank 8 at most imo. Other fights on this level include Namor, Huntress, Helmut Zemo, Starkiller and Scandal Savage.
These are people who are likely well versed in multiple fighting styles or extremely effective in a single style. Either way they can all clear a room full of generic thugs or soldiers with their fighting skills alone.
Is there any evidence to suggest that she outstrips these fighters and is worthy of ranks above them?
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 9:48:02 GMT -5
Here's a video of Starkiller, the only Force user in the Rank 8 category.
Call fight choreography if you like, but I'd like some substantial evidence before we progress her past Rank 8.
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Post by Erik-El on Apr 5, 2013 12:23:06 GMT -5
I don't know how Nanor managed to get rank 8 when all he has ever done was flown into bad guys with his arms flailing but if I couldn't get Wonder Woman a respectable rank, what chance do you think I would have with a character I don't care about?
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 18:58:22 GMT -5
Fought Wolverine? hard to rank powerhouse characters. But I would like to know how River Tam measures up if she is being used in the thread.
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Post by Erik-El on Apr 5, 2013 20:15:34 GMT -5
Fought Wolverine? hard to rank powerhouse characters. But I would like to know how River Tam measures up if she is being used in the thread. Well the grids still need a lot of work where it concerns Fighting Ability. Luke Cage is the same rank as Mr. Majestic. If stats were not a factor, I fully believe River would whup Cage all over the place.
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Post by Erik-El on Apr 5, 2013 20:17:27 GMT -5
Here's a video of Starkiller, the only Force user in the Rank 8 category. Call fight choreography if you like, but I'd like some substantial evidence before we progress her past Rank 8. No way he is an 8. It is hard to rank characters that are guided by an external force but as far as his skill with the force, he is the kind of character that would make Wolverine work for it.
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 20:35:29 GMT -5
ok, well I want to get a pretty accurate rating here since, if she is used, she will be measured against others in combat. How would River Tam compare to another Rank 8, Huntress? she has cleared plenty of rooms full of goons in her day. The fact is, Rank 8 is actually pretty high. The fighters in ranks 10-14 are actually really excellent fighters.
There are a lot of low ranking Star Wars characters in there because most of them haven't mastered even a single fighting style. Galen Marek's clone was said to have mastered Jar Kai (a pretty weak fighting style in itself) and to be reasonably well versed in Shien and incorporated elements of Ataru.
So that's one fighting style mastered (which can only be used with two blades) and a working understanding of two other fighting styles (which both also require blades). It doesn't measure up against a guy like Wolverine who has mastered dozens of fighting styles, both unarmed and with weapons. It doesn't even measure up against any of the Robins who have mastered numerous fighting styles and non-lethally (i.e. more difficult) take down hordes of thugs every day. Keep in mind, Starkiller is using lightsabers, he only has to land a glancing blow to kill someone.
I think you might have to face up to the fact that River Tam, whilst very impressive in her own universe, doesn't actually stack up that well against high tier comic book characters. If you want to have her at a different Rank, give me reasons why. I look at Rank 8 and I see people like Huntress and Starkiller.
River Tam's martial arts skills are about a blue to red belt level in Taekwondo. All I saw from her was a high front kick, a bunch of push kicks and maybe a backside kick. Those are 3 of the most basic kicks. She landed them well enough for me to put her a few belts up. Other than that she has the skills of someone who has studied a single martial art for a few months. She executes well because A) She is fighting morons and B) She has low level telepathy like Mr. X and knows roughly what they're going to do. I'm talking pure fighting skill here. If her fighting skills exceed Rank 8 then let me know. People in Ranks 9-10 are Nick Fury, Nightcrawler, Damian Wayne, Sabretooth, Fantomex, etc.
Is there a reason to put her on the level of those people?
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Post by Erik-El on Apr 5, 2013 20:42:35 GMT -5
Well like I said, the ranking system if very clearly flawed. I could just as easily ask if you think Huntress could beat Cage or Sabretooth (who gets regularly whupped even with his powers) without powers.
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 20:48:24 GMT -5
No. No I do not even a tiny bit think Huntress could beat Sabretooth. Quite possibly Luke Cage if he didn't have his powers. But considering he has had training from Iron Fist and trains with Daredevil in a boxing gym, it's very possible she couldn't.
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 20:49:57 GMT -5
And in all seriousness, I am fully open to suggestions. Telling me how Huntress ranks up against Luke Cage doesn't do anything for River Tam. Luke and Huntress have both shown themselves to be entire ballparks more skilled than River Tam. Tell me what River Tam can do and why she is such a BAMF. Why is she so good and who could she take down on that list?
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Post by Erik-El on Apr 5, 2013 21:26:39 GMT -5
Luke receives training from Iron Fist and Daredevil and is suddenly an 8, despite having never shown any measurable skill whatsoever. He just as easily could have been their invincible punching bag for how much he actually learned.
Sabretooth never shows any measurable fighting skill, technical or otherwise, especially without heavily relying on his powers and he is apparently deserving of an 8.
Huntress does what River can do only with massive inconsistency and suddenly she has shown herself to be entire ballparks more skilled than River Tam. I don't even understand why you would think I would be willing to even try and change your mind when I disagree with literally every point you tried to make.
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 21:33:12 GMT -5
ok, you've discredited some fighters. Now let's get some points in River's favor. Why is she such a good fighter and who out of the higher ranks does she stack up against?
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 21:34:29 GMT -5
(It'll be pretty funny if Beatboks doesn't even use River Tam)
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 21:46:58 GMT -5
I really want to use Apollo from BSG but I'm just not sure his fighting skills will be of any great use
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Post by Erik-El on Apr 5, 2013 22:29:37 GMT -5
(It'll be pretty funny if Beatboks doesn't even use River Tam) Lol probably exactly what will happen.
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 22:35:45 GMT -5
I mean, she is a basket case 95% of the time and the other 5% she does kick ass, but probably not with the versatility of a lot of other fighters.
Which is basically what I'm getting at. She isn't actually a great option. But I'm more than happy to allow her if he wants a Sci-Fi All-Stars Squad.
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Post by Erik-El on Apr 5, 2013 22:39:25 GMT -5
ok, you've discredited some fighters. Now let's get some points in River's favor. Why is she such a good fighter and who out of the higher ranks does she stack up against? I listed some already but unfortunately, they had to be discredited first. You have two choices here. Either you can choose to see her fight scenes as an unskilled actress performing ballet and somehow everyone falls down dead or you can choose to see the story that was meant to be told. You are smart enough to come to a fair decision for either option you choose. I really want to use Apollo from BSG but I'm just not sure his fighting skills will be of any great use Keep in mind that his 75 year old father kicked his ass in the ring and the fat mechanic beat that old geezer to a pulp.
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Post by Dane on Apr 5, 2013 22:55:01 GMT -5
ok, you've discredited some fighters. Now let's get some points in River's favor. Why is she such a good fighter and who out of the higher ranks does she stack up against? I listed some already but unfortunately, they had to be discredited first. You have two choices here. Either you can choose to see her fight scenes as an unskilled actress performing ballet and somehow everyone falls down dead or you can choose to see the story that was meant to be told. You are smart enough to come to a fair decision for either option you choose. I really want to use Apollo from BSG but I'm just not sure his fighting skills will be of any great use Keep in mind that his 75 year old father kicked his ass in the ring and the fat mechanic beat that old geezer to a pulp. 1. I absolutely understand what you're saying. But I'm trying to realistically compare River Tam to other fighters. You're skating around that a bit. She took down some unnamed thugs. That's cool but we see that in comics all the time from low-tier fighters like Bat-Family members (Huntress, Catwoman, Robins, etc). Now they're all ranked in the range of Ranks 8-12 with the exception of Nightwing and Bruce himself. What puts her on their level or above? 2. Let's be real here, Admiral Adama is at least a Rank 47. No shame in that.
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Post by Erik-El on Apr 5, 2013 22:58:42 GMT -5
1) I skate around it because outside what is shown on Serenity, I got nothing. She didn't fight in the series and she didn't fight in the comics. Her ability is every bit as vague and implied as a badass new villain that challenges a hero once and is never seen again.
2) True. Besides, that mechanic was a skin job anyway.
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