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Post by Erik-El on Jan 1, 2011 23:08:26 GMT -5
Because it is not potential chi manipulation. Everyone has it. It is no different than a person who never learned to use their left pinky. It is still there, they just do not use it. Mutant powers are considerably different than that. Not sure I follow. I am not seeing the difference between these, especially since many mutants actually do have to learn how to use their powers. Very rarely does effective use of their powers come naturally to them. If everyone evolved into mutants, but, according to you, they still had powers, then why is it that when everyone has the ability to use Chi, it is not a power? The difference is that not everyone has the X-gene. So while never using chi is akin to never using your pinky, since not every mutant has the same power, it is not comparable. I can relate mutant powers to a 6th finger but you want to pretend that everyone can wag that 6th finger. Not everyone has it. Seeing as how mutants were never going to replace humans anyway, I do not know why you are trying to debate this. Mutants do not all have the same power anyway. Would you say that Wolverine's power is to heal himself? Would you say that he has telekinesis because Jean did?
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 1, 2011 23:14:08 GMT -5
Actually scratch that. Mutant powers are not akin to the 6th finger, the X-gene is.
Mutant powers do not fit any similar analogy.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 1, 2011 23:18:19 GMT -5
Not sure I follow. I am not seeing the difference between these, especially since many mutants actually do have to learn how to use their powers. Very rarely does effective use of their powers come naturally to them. If everyone evolved into mutants, but, according to you, they still had powers, then why is it that when everyone has the ability to use Chi, it is not a power? The difference is that not everyone has the X-gene. So while never using chi is akin to never using your pinky, since not every mutant has the same power, it is not comparable. I can relate mutant powers to a 6th finger but you want to pretend that everyone can wag that 6th finger. Not everyone has it. Seeing as how mutants were never going to replace humans anyway, I do not know why you are trying to debate this. Mutants do not all have the same power anyway. Would you say that Wolverine's power is to heal himself? Would you say that he has telekinesis because Jean did? I only try to debate it because the theory has been addressed before that everyone evolve into that stage. I said specifically that I was speaking hypothetically. I also mentioned that not all mutants have the same powers... To be honest, not all Chi manipulators have the same abilities either. They apply use of Chi at varying degrees for varying effects.
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 1, 2011 23:22:24 GMT -5
@silver:
Mutants have not been considered the next step in evolution for a while. So it is not worth debating at all. They were a genetic mixup that were and are still considered to be a dead-end.
But again, they are taught to use abilities that we all are supposed to have. Varying effects is due to different 'education' of this ability.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 1, 2011 23:22:37 GMT -5
I'd be willing to argue that his fighting skills are indeed "super" just to a far lesser degree than magic/chi manipulation. The guy dodges bullets. "Normal" people can't do that, unless they've gone through the amount of training DC deems necessary to. Dodging bullets is not a result of his skills. It's a result of the exercise he did. The guy reached the human potential of strength speed and reaction timing. He can think and react fast enough so he could dodge these things. Cap on the other hand had a serum that allowed him to do these things. =] When I said fighting skills, I meant that as more of an umbrella term to sum up all of the training he put himself through. Like I said in my first post, there are certain subsets to being superhuman/having super powers that gives people more of a general idea as to how super a particular human is, such as peak, enhanced, super, and such, but it all falls under the category of "super human." In comics, we know the difference between super people and normal people because we see super people performing things that the civilians can't, such as dodging bullets, running a mile a minute, and all that other stuff.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 1, 2011 23:32:11 GMT -5
@silver: Mutants have not been considered the next step in evolution for a while. So it is not worth debating at all. They were a genetic mixup that were and are still considered to be a dead-end. Eh. The X-Men are currently working to reverse that. Regardless of whether or not they are successful, I was only speaking hypothetically based on a possibility presented for the sake of an analogy. I never said for sure that it would happen. But again, they are taught to use abilities that we all are supposed to have. Varying effects is due to different 'education' of this ability. Let me ask this question then. If learning a superhuman trait nullifies its status as a "power," then what would qualify as powers? Would you have to be born with it, undergo an accident, undergo a voluntary experiment, etc.?
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 1, 2011 23:35:09 GMT -5
@silver: Mutants have not been considered the next step in evolution for a while. So it is not worth debating at all. They were a genetic mixup that were and are still considered to be a dead-end. Eh. The X-Men are currently working to reverse that. Regardless of whether or not they are successful, I was only speaking hypothetically based on a possibility presented for the sake of an analogy. I never said for sure that it would happen. But again, they are taught to use abilities that we all are supposed to have. Varying effects is due to different 'education' of this ability. Let me ask this question then. If learning a superhuman trait nullifies its status as a "power," then what would qualify as powers? Would you have to be born with it, undergo an accident, undergo a voluntary experiment, etc.? I will not address that because the question itself is contrary to my argument. No one trains up to a superhuman trait. Karate Kid trains up within what humans are supposed to be able to get to. Technically speaking, he is just one facet of peak human.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 1, 2011 23:38:03 GMT -5
Eh. The X-Men are currently working to reverse that. Regardless of whether or not they are successful, I was only speaking hypothetically based on a possibility presented for the sake of an analogy. I never said for sure that it would happen. Let me ask this question then. If learning a superhuman trait nullifies its status as a "power," then what would qualify as powers? Would you have to be born with it, undergo an accident, undergo a voluntary experiment, etc.? I will not address that because the question itself is contrary to my argument. No one trains up to a superhuman trait. Karate Kid trains up within what humans are supposed to be able to get to. Technically speaking, he is just one facet of peak human. Alright. I will reword the question then. If any naturally attainable trait is not a "power," then what would have to be the source of a technical "super power"?
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Post by Power NeXus on Jan 1, 2011 23:39:20 GMT -5
if learning how to use magic is a super-power,wouldnt fighting skills like Batman's or Captain America's be considered a super-power as well? if it is something ''anyone'' can learn,it is not really super The power is the magic. The super is the fact that it can be used to do something that is out of the ordinary. When it becomes ordinary for people to cast mystical illusions, shapeshift, shoot fireballs, and summon demons by way of magic, then we can say magic isn't super anymore. Just like when we see everyone in comic world manipulating chi like it's no big deal. It's just like what Syndrome said. I'm learning maths in school. I'm obviously super human... ;D ROFL The best part is that his "super-mathematics" are wrong. 20 times 16 times 10 is 3,200.
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Post by Erik-El on Jan 1, 2011 23:39:36 GMT -5
I will not address that because the question itself is contrary to my argument. No one trains up to a superhuman trait. Karate Kid trains up within what humans are supposed to be able to get to. Technically speaking, he is just one facet of peak human. Alright. I will reword the question then. If any naturally attainable trait is not a "power," then what would have to be the source of a technical "super power"? Unnatural.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 1, 2011 23:41:30 GMT -5
Alright. I will reword the question then. If any naturally attainable trait is not a "power," then what would have to be the source of a technical "super power"? Unnatural. Could you elaborate on that?
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 0:23:38 GMT -5
Chi has no source.It's natually within every person.The ability to manipulate it is something learned not granted.Everyone who uses chi doesn't have the same abilities but they are all manipulating their own NATURAL energy.Although you learn magic and just about anyone can do it..magic especially in a comic format is manipulating magical forces outside yourself.All magical powers have an outside force which is manipulated.Black Magic doesn't come from within.
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 0:32:28 GMT -5
Supposedly mutants would have eventually replaced humans. But the X-gene is not even the power. The powers are the side-effects of the X-gene. I never said the X-gene itself was the power. But given how diversified mutant abilities tend to be, how would those not qualify as super powers? As humans are currently in Marvel (and in reality), we/they have natural physical and mental limits, as well as specific aptitudes in different areas. So, while not everyone may have the same capability, in general, we all are relatively similar, as far as the minimal and maximum limitations on our physicality and mentality. With mutants, they are all completely different. You have some with abilities such as Cypher, and then you have others such as Mad Jim Jaspers. There is no comparison. How are you comparing the X-gene to chi? Mutant powers have a source...the X-gene.The X-gene is specific to homo superior and not all men and women and therefore has no compatibility with chi.Healing Factor is a power.Wolverine didn't have to learn healing factor he has it no matter what.Powers are granted or discovered not gained through training.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 0:36:09 GMT -5
So your stance is that for something to be considered a super power, it has to originate from an outside source?
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 0:40:11 GMT -5
So your stance is that for something to be considered a super power, it has to originate from an outside source? In order for something to be a power it has to have an unnatural outside source, yes.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 2, 2011 0:47:59 GMT -5
Now that's interesting. This is sorta coming from left field, but would you consider Superman--or any Kryptonian for that matter--beings with super powers?
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 0:54:17 GMT -5
Now that's interesting. This is sorta coming from left field, but would you consider Superman--or any Kryptonian for that matter--beings with super powers? Yes.Superman and all other Kryptonians are granted powers by our yellow sun and therefore that is an unnatural source because if i'm mistaken the sun on their planet doesn't grant them the same abilities. For most alien life forms I wouldn't consider the abilities they have powers because most beings of that kind have the same abilities. Like all Skrulls can shapeshift.That's a power for someone like Mystique but not for them because all Skrulls can do it.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 2, 2011 0:57:42 GMT -5
In order for something to be a power it has to have an unnatural outside source, yes. Why? A power is a power. The effect of the power is much more important than the source of it. If a character has a power, they have a power. What real difference does it make where it came from? I think one area of dispute that we are having is that I am viewing this from an out of universe perspective, while you and Erik, seemingly, are looking at this from an in-universe perspective. If I happen to wrong about that, let me know, but that is just how this came across to me.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 2, 2011 1:03:35 GMT -5
Yes.Superman and all other Kryptonians are granted powers by our yellow sun and therefore that is an unnatural source because if i'm mistaken the sun on their planet doesn't grant them the same abilities. This is confusing. Yellow solar radiation never just magically grants Kryptonians powers. They receive powers from yellow sunlight because of the absorption and metabolism of solar radiation in their bodies. So, yes, it comes from an outside source, but it would have no effect were it not for Kryptonian physiology.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 2, 2011 1:08:29 GMT -5
In order for something to be a power it has to have an unnatural outside source, yes. Why? A power is a power. The effect of the power is much more important than the source of it. If a character has a power, they have a power. What real difference does it make where it came from? I think one area of dispute that we are having is that I am viewing this from an out of universe perspective, while you and Erik, seemingly, are looking at this from an in-universe perspective. If I happen to wrong about that, let me know, but that is just how this came across to me. A power is not a power.The source is all that matters.If everyone can has the potential to reach your level then it's not a super power.A regular person can never train to shapeshift or to be able to control gravity...but people can acquire those powers through accidents and by being born with the X-gene. The X-gene is a mutation.Every human doesn't get it and therefore it makes what people can do with it extraordinary.For a Skrull to Shapeshift, for a Watcher to be able to teleport etc. those things aren't super to beings of the that race.They all can do it.Those are the natural abilities they are born with.
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