|
Post by Lunacyde Prime on Jan 11, 2011 20:56:49 GMT -5
The bottom line is Marvel and DC sell easily the most comics worldwide. Worldwide they are the most recognized. Worldwide they are the two leaders. no they sell the most in English speaking countries, but that is not true outside of them. Notice I said world-wide...meaning if you count up how many books each company sells in the world each year, Marvel and DC are at the top. Certainly they may not be the best selling in every single region, but add all the regions together and they are. It's a simple fact.
|
|
Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
|
Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 11, 2011 21:32:44 GMT -5
This thread has gotten way off topic...
|
|
|
Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 11, 2011 22:06:16 GMT -5
yes. sorry about that.
So to get back on topic. Which series do you think has stayed true most from start to finish?
My opinion: In American Comics: Hellboy In European comics: hard to say maybe the Scorpion, they're up to 12 tomes now and still going strong all across the board with consistency
|
|
|
Post by Ferro_Vida on Jan 11, 2011 22:07:45 GMT -5
But you can walk into any book store in England, France, Italy, or Germany and I guarantee that the majority of titles will be either Marvel or DC. Having been to several stores in France and Germany when I spent a month there and having friends and people I talk to overseas as well as subscriptions to European magazines. I can tell you this is totally untrue. The Comics that dominate in Europe are not Marvel or DC, not at all. And in Japan, Korea and Hong Kong Manwha and Manga dominate. And having been to several book stores in all of the places I have listed I can tell you that Marvel and DC both have a strong presence there. Now add that to the fact that those European titles have almost no presence in North America.
|
|
Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
|
Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 11, 2011 22:15:00 GMT -5
yes. sorry about that. So to get back on topic. Which series do you think has stayed true most from start to finish? My opinion: In American Comics: Hellboy In European comics: hard to say maybe the Scorpion, they're up to 12 tomes now and still going strong all across the board with consistency I can't really say.Most comics i've read from start to finish and the character is A-list like a Cap or a Batman there are retcons and power changes and all types of stuff that keep the consistency down.
|
|
|
Post by Crom-Cruach on Jan 11, 2011 22:17:49 GMT -5
And having been to several book stores in all of the places I have listed I can tell you that Marvel and DC both have a strong presence there. Now add that to the fact that those European titles have almost no presence in North America. Neither have the majority there. And in Quebec, European titles are very much big sellers. They sell to more places, but they are very rarely number 1 sought after outside of English speaking countries. anyway, let's get back on topic.
|
|
|
Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 12, 2011 2:06:25 GMT -5
Consistency can't exist in comic books because the industry is too fickle. Common comic book readers only buy the titles they recognize which leads to those characters raping continuity. If the common comic book reader could comprehend such things as character development and story telling, continuity and consistency would coalesce. Most common comic book readers are generally poorly educated which leads to them wanting more awesome and less story. The American Government has been screwing up education for decades so you can blame the inconsistency on the Government. So you want someone to really blame, George W. Bush deserves your ire.
|
|
Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
|
Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 12, 2011 2:44:51 GMT -5
Consistency can't exist in comic books because the industry is too fickle. Common comic book readers only buy the titles they recognize which leads to those characters raping continuity. If the common comic book reader could comprehend such things as character development and story telling, continuity and consistency would coalesce. Most common comic book readers are generally poorly educated which leads to them wanting more awesome and less story. The American Government has been screwing up education for decades so you can blame the inconsistency on the Government. So you want someone to really blame, George W. Bush deserves your ire. I don't agree with this entire post and i'll tell you why. First of all I do agree that most comic readers are poorly educated but I don't agree with the part about continuity.My problem isn't with (I've never really seen DC do this) Marvel having characters appear in so many titles that it doesn't make sense continuity wise.My problem is with these companies giving characters certain powers and abilities and portraying them poorly.I think every comic fan can agree..even the midly retarded ones that reading a comic where a writer completely misrepresents one of their faves, either because they lack to knowledge on the character or because they don't like the character.That's not a good look.If I was a Black Widow fan (which I am), I would be fed up at this point with how many books she appears in and does nothing.
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Stargrave on Jan 12, 2011 9:55:58 GMT -5
Why the argument about European comics at all? They don't have the problems as Marvel and DC because they have very different format than Marvel and DC. For one, most EU comics don't share a universe like DC and Marvel do. They live in their own continuities with no one to contradict them. Second, some EU comics, like Asterix, spend their entire runs being written by a single writer. It all makes consistency incredibly easier to maintain, but it's something massive companies with overdeveloped universes can do.
|
|
|
Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 12, 2011 14:05:35 GMT -5
But that is the point, Marvel and DC send their best writers to the characters that people like meaning the lesser used characters get people who would be better suited to write someone else.
Let's say that Writer A is a good at writing for Character 1 while Writer B is good at writing for Character 2. Character 1 is more popular than Character 2 but one of Writer B's comics sells incredibly well. So the company looks at the two Writers and the two Characters and decides that if they combined with writing of Writer B with the popularity of Character 1, they could make more money. Here is where the problem comes into play. Character 1 is a street level guy whose only power is badassery while Character 2 is a powerful Elemental. Writer B is used to writing for someone with incredible power while Writer A is used to writing someone without powers. So what do they do? Writer A lowers Character 2's power level while Writer B raises Character 1's power level. Now multiply this across as many characters and writers each company possesses and you get what we have now.
Everything about the comic book industry is the fault of the consumer. The common comic book reader has not held them accountable for their continuity and consistency errors.
|
|
|
Post by Supreme Marvel on Jan 12, 2011 14:34:54 GMT -5
I can't help but feel like this problem would be so easily resolved if the major companies treated titles like TV series instead of just comics. This way, you'd likely have a creative team collaborate on one series for an extended period of time (a year or more). If this works I cant help but think Heroes would be in it's 5/6 season right now. And going strength to strength. Instead of going down hill fast after the writers strike years ago.
|
|
Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
|
Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 12, 2011 16:03:17 GMT -5
But that is the point, Marvel and DC send their best writers to the characters that people like meaning the lesser used characters get people who would be better suited to write someone else. Let's say that Writer A is a good at writing for Character 1 while Writer B is good at writing for Character 2. Character 1 is more popular than Character 2 but one of Writer B's comics sells incredibly well. So the company looks at the two Writers and the two Characters and decides that if they combined with writing of Writer B with the popularity of Character 1, they could make more money. Here is where the problem comes into play. Character 1 is a street level guy whose only power is badassery while Character 2 is a powerful Elemental. Writer B is used to writing for someone with incredible power while Writer A is used to writing someone without powers. So what do they do? Writer A lowers Character 2's power level while Writer B raises Character 1's power level. Now multiply this across as many characters and writers each company possesses and you get what we have now. Everything about the comic book industry is the fault of the consumer. The common comic book reader has not held them accountable for their continuity and consistency errors. I agree with that scenario.I could see how that happens.I just don't think anything is absolute you know what I mean? Some of this has to be the publisher's doing.I get where you're coming from though because Avengers has been a top seller for Marvel for quite some time now and it suffers from severe mediocrity.People keep buying it though.Alot of people complain about Avengers but all the books sell really well.I just feel like even given the scenario you proposed something consistent can be written and the character can still appear bad ass or a dominant force.To be honest I think it's just laziness.Bendis has proven he can write team books and solo character books.Only when he had several books on his plate did the lack of consistency and showings over all come in.
|
|
|
Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 12, 2011 16:30:49 GMT -5
I would agree that the publishers ultimately make the decisions of who to put where but they only make those decisions based upon decisions the consumer makes. Good writers who sell well like Bendis get put on too many books and get stretched too thin. I am not trying to say that the publishers are completely faultless here, they could grow some balls and attempt to provide a superior product but decide not to because it is cheaper for them to just keep producing inconsistent continuity because people keep buying it.
|
|
Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
|
Post by Silver on Jan 14, 2011 20:30:49 GMT -5
I am a little late, I guess.
But as for my input, Dedman's analogy with Write 1/Character A and Writer 2/Character B actually does apply well to Marvel/DC. There are far too many continuity errors and too much general PIS. I disagree however that this is the fault of the consumer. The main problem, I find, is that writers just neglect to research characters before writing them. Certain writers such as Morrison, Waid, and Straczynski have done a decent job of studying a character before writing about them. On the other hand, writers such as Loeb, Kelley, Johns, and Simone either never do their research or just ignore whatever they read to play favorites with a character.
One thing I notice about how Star Wars comics/novels are written is that different writers have preferred characters. For Timothy Zahn, his characters are Mara Jade and Thrawn. For Drew Karpyshyn, his characters are Revan and Darth Bane. For Kevin J. Anderson, his character is Exar Kun. For Troy Denning, Luke Skywalker. For Karen Traviss, Mandalorians/Boba Fett. So on and so on. This is not to say that these writers play fanboy for their characters in their works; it just means they have a particular focus on them. Now, there are some writers, such as Karen Traviss, who do play favorites (and JediXMan and I will continue to disagree about our perceptions of her writing), but not many writers do as she does. That indicates that Star Wars writers actually read and comprehend attributes of characters before they write them, which is something not easily said about many DC/Marvel writers. Now, different EU writers also have separate views of how powerful characters are. For instance, writers such as Anderson, Veitch, Denning, etc. prefer to write characters at extremely high power levels. Whereas, Zahn and, to some degree, Stackpole prefer characters at levels not far above their power portrayals in the movies. This has, at times, caused a few inconsistencies. Overall, there have not been many inconsistencies regarding how powerful characters are in the EU, but there have been some. Generally, if a writer decidedly dislikes someone like Jacen Solo being fairly powerful, they may just write novels/comics with him when Jacen was younger, so his power levels are significantly lower. On the other hand, as an example, Stackpole wrote Star Wars Union, and in that comic, Luke got a black eye from some loser in a bar... :-\ Union took place in 19 or 20 ASW4; so while he may have been four or five years away from reaching his prime, Luke has handled much[/b] worse than a punch to the face by a completely non-superhuman person. So difference of opinion regarding how powerful writers like characters to be has caused a few problems in EU Star Wars also, just as it has, albeit differently, in DC/Marvel. The writers that come to mind pertaining to writing a character how they want instead of how they are include Geoffcon Man and Gail Simone. Simone plays favorites quite a bit, and Johns has his own agenda with characters that disregards how the character(s) were previously written. Overall though, aside from works that are just riddled with PIS left and right (such as the Force Unleashed), Star Wars has more consistency overall, excluding the prequel movie trilogy. One reason for that may be simply differentiations between how novels are written and how comics are written. Obviously, in books, you have much greater detail. So specifications during fights can be made that otherwise may not be made in comics, especially nowadays since narration is much less informative than it was in the sixties-eighties (and before that even). One thing that amazes me is that, even though the EU does have some continuity errors and retcons, there are far fewer than there are in DC/Marvel. To be fair, Marvel/DC have numerous parallel universes, while those are nonexistent in Star Wars, but in the EU, you have almost 40,000 years of known history (with the other 960,000 years having very little information about them). So there are greater time frames that all overlap one another, and characters are actually affected by years more than they are in Marvel/DC (since few characters actually age in those). My point is that maybe DC/Marvel just needs to reconstruct the way they write. k4tz suggested writing it like a TV show, which seems like a decent method. It could help avoid continuity errors. Also, in Star Wars, there are rarely needless appearances by characters. Writers scarcely just have a cameo by a character purely because of how popular that character is. That by itself would resolve several continuity errors. Also, if writers would just read comic series involving a character before they write about them, that would solve problems also. Star Wars writers have to research characters in order to write a story. If they were to write a novel series about someone without understanding what the character's story lines before this series were, then their book series will, of course, just contradict continuity. On top of that, since EU writers can backtrack and write comics/novels in different time periods and are not restricted to just writing forward in time, they of course have to conduct research for that as well. If they intend to input a story inbetween other already established stories, then clearly prior research is mandatory. The same applies for comic series. Just researching the character before writing about them, refraining from playing favorites with characters, refraining from writing characters how they want them to be instead of how they were previously established (Johns), and avoiding pointless appearances by popular characters would fix most continuity errors and PIS across the board. Will continuity errors cease to exist? No, but a little effort on the part of the writer to depict stories and characters in a way that makes sense would be nice.
|
|
|
Post by DedmanWalkin on Jan 15, 2011 15:24:56 GMT -5
I am an admitted SW fan much like many of you. Do you know how many times I have gotten crap for birthdays and Christmas simply because they say Star Wars on it? I am also a Batman fan, do you know how much crap I have gotten simply because they have Batman on it? I ask my Mom to get me something from Marvel and I'll likely end up with a Batman T-Shirt? This is the big difference between the two, Star Wars is the brand while the individual superheroes of Marvel and DC are the brand. Marvel and DC are more like a parent company to multiple brands, like Viacom or some other large parent company. Now since the individual characters of Marvel/DC are more valuable than the whole universe, the editors will simply do as I have said and push incorrect writers/characters onto various storylines leading to inconsistency. Imagine what would happen to SW comics if they had to insert Darth Vader into every other comic simply because he was the most popular? Thankfully they don't because SW is the brand not Vader.
|
|
|
Post by ckal on Jan 15, 2011 20:04:13 GMT -5
I agree, here are some of my thoughts on this.
Maybe it is just that the majority of comic writers really aren't that good, maybe it has a lot to do with the fact that these aren't creator owned titles so the writers haven't been with them for a while, don't stick with them for a while, and have to conform to previous writing of the character, or just straight up don't understand the characters/titles they are writing.
Aside from that, I don't like how comics seem to have a ton of throw away story lines or arcs. There seem to be too many pointless arcs that we obviously aren't supposed to care about, have any effect on the overall character/title, or just very poorly thought out. It's like they are saying to us, "Don't take this seriously, it doesn't matter at all, and yes, it is stupid." And filler is always annoying.
On top of that, obviously horrid writing that completely goes against everything before it (ex: a character's personality) is just hard to stomach.
|
|
Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
|
Post by Silver on Jan 16, 2011 11:49:09 GMT -5
I am an admitted SW fan much like many of you. Do you know how many times I have gotten crap for birthdays and Christmas simply because they say Star Wars on it? I am also a Batman fan, do you know how much crap I have gotten simply because they have Batman on it? I ask my Mom to get me something from Marvel and I'll likely end up with a Batman T-Shirt? This is the big difference between the two, Star Wars is the brand while the individual superheroes of Marvel and DC are the brand. Marvel and DC are more like a parent company to multiple brands, like Viacom or some other large parent company. Now since the individual characters of Marvel/DC are more valuable than the whole universe, the editors will simply do as I have said and push incorrect writers/characters onto various storylines leading to inconsistency. Imagine what would happen to SW comics if they had to insert Darth Vader into every other comic simply because he was the most popular? Thankfully they don't because SW is the brand not Vader. Hmm. I actually never thought of it this way, but this is true.
|
|
|
Post by cm24 on Jan 16, 2011 12:40:39 GMT -5
IMO in order to have consistency, you must have stability. And you can't have stability, if you change creative teams in every new arc. And writers should research a character before they write about him.
|
|
Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
|
Post by Killshot Caine on Jan 21, 2011 11:13:06 GMT -5
I agree, here are some of my thoughts on this. Maybe it is just that the majority of comic writers really aren't that good, maybe it has a lot to do with the fact that these aren't creator owned titles so the writers haven't been with them for a while, don't stick with them for a while, and have to conform to previous writing of the character, or just straight up don't understand the characters/titles they are writing. Aside from that, I don't like how comics seem to have a ton of throw away story lines or arcs. There seem to be too many pointless arcs that we obviously aren't supposed to care about, have any effect on the overall character/title, or just very poorly thought out. It's like they are saying to us, "Don't take this seriously, it doesn't matter at all, and yes, it is stupid." And filler is always annoying. On top of that, obviously horrid writing that completely goes against everything before it (ex: a character's personality) is just hard to stomach. That's the thing.If you aren't a good writer you could at least do your research.The stuff that they write that is out of continuity or PIS or whatever is stuff that would have known wasn't right had they know anything about the character.I can take a crappy storyline, what I can't stand is reading something that shows the person who wrote the book has a clearly lack of knowledge on the subject. I Agree with you on the throw away story arcs.I think that all goes back to most writers not being good because when a writer clearly doesn't know what to do with a character it sticks out like a sore thumb in his work.Hudlin's Black Panther before Shuri took over was complete garbage.
|
|
|
Post by NexusOfLight on Jan 21, 2011 11:42:38 GMT -5
I can take a crappy storyline, what I can't stand is reading something that shows the person who wrote the book has a clearly lack of knowledge on the subject. Now that's interesting. If you don't mind, I wanna take a moment and start a discussion centering around that in particular. For starters I guess I should ask why? How is a crappily written story better than a story that simply pays little attention to continuity? I notice a lot of comic fans seem to have that mentality, and it's always baffled me.
|
|